Harvard vs. Columbia ($) Forum

[Rigo]

If Harvard is your choice then attend this year and congrats. If not reapply next cycle and hope for the outcome your numbers should dictate.

Continuing to give shoddy advice when it comes to picking Harvard. Can you explain a single reason Harvard is worth $200k for generic Biglaw, but otherwise reapplying is the best decision?

I get what he was saying.
If OP was going to pick H over money anyways then no reason to reapply for more money.

[lawlorbust]

DCC covered this, but you're assuming a lengthy career in Biglaw, which is statistically unlikely considering law firms work mostly on heavily leveraged business models that necessarily requires attrition. So you could be the Biglaw associate coming from Penn with $60k debt a year later who will more likely than not get pushed out for a number of reasons after 3-5 years, or you could be a Columbia grad with $140k debt that gets pushed out a year earlier.

That might not end up being you and you might become a shiny, really expensive partner at your biglaw firm, but statistics will tell you that's unlikely to happen. So you're really looking at getting back to zero net worth and then moving on to a lower paying gig sooner.

TLS and math. First, the length of his career doesn't correlate with when he goes into law school. Assume a number of years he'll be in biglaw and stick with it. If he's going to have five years as a biglaw associate going in this year, his career isn't magically going to lengthen (or shorten) to six (or four) years just because he decided to defer a year.

Even if you're risk-averse (because he might be forced out) or assume he'll job-hop once he reaches a certain age, OP went to a TTT in the 160s. What does a realistic entry-level job from that rank of school make? Optimistically, 40-50k? The delta between that and the in-house job he lands up with is still going to >! $60k.

[Monday]

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[McMooch]

Kid, every thing you've said on this thread, from your original post (something like "clerkship or litigation, but I don't know much about either") to each of your replies scares the bejesus out of me.

You are about to saddle yourself with a ton of debt and you literally don't know what kind of job you want or what those jobs take. Assume you take on all this debt, and further assume you get a big law job--what then when you become one of the numerous people on here who complain about how horrible their life is but they can't quit because of a similar amount to debt that you're about to blithely walk into?
If you want me to state my career goals with confidence then I want to go into litigation, particularly appellate litigation, in a secondary market.

You're doing the same "I have decent stats so I may as well go to law school" dance that so many people did pre recession and led to so many people being unhappy.

Despite the "this is an odd cycle" anecdotal stuff said previously, every cycle is odd. There is a website that has collected numbers of applicants from previous cycles that give you odds on your chances. You should be getting money from lower t13s which better accommodate your situation (no sense of what you want to do or what it takes so offering you the ability to walk stupidly into a profession debt free).

I'm disappointed in your decision making and that someone with a 4.0 would make such a numbskull decision as you are.

I apologize for the typos, as I'm so agitated that I couldn't be bothered to proofread.

Don't go to law school this year. Think about what

I take exception to almost every point here. It may be that my original undergraduate major was a bad decision, but currently the only option they have for getting a career is pursuing graduate education. The reason I so hedged about my career goals is that unlike many people who shift during law school from their indignantly stated career goals, I'm aware that I do not know the full extent of what I want to do.
I don't know how you can know that I will get full scholarship to lower t13s that will allow me to do whatever I want with this numbskull. Others have raised the possibility that perhaps one or another but nobody seems to be as confident as you.

[McMooch]

Does anyone who voted Harvard, which now seems to be higher want to explain their rationale? So far I've heard articulate positions about reapplying and Columbia, but I would like to know why people think Harvard.

Seriously, they're probably 0Ls who would just pick the higher ranking in any scenario.

Or silent observers obsessed with the Harvard name/grandiose ideas of prestige that are lost when you enter...you know, reality.

Wow this seems to be the year of the silent majority.

You want to know why people aren't articulating good reasons to pick Harvard here for your goals? There aren't any that should/would be at all persuasive. Hell, you have Dcc, a current HLS 1L, telling you that you have better options. How is that not persuasive to you?

Because that's not what OP wants to hear.

Hey. Just because I'm trying to further the discussion doesn't mean that I am not convinced. We know these threads are read for many years and they can be very helpful for other people.

[SmokeytheBear]

Kid, every thing you've said on this thread, from your original post (something like "clerkship or litigation, but I don't know much about either") to each of your replies scares the bejesus out of me.

You are about to saddle yourself with a ton of debt and you literally don't know what kind of job you want or what those jobs take. Assume you take on all this debt, and further assume you get a big law job--what then when you become one of the numerous people on here who complain about how horrible their life is but they can't quit because of a similar amount to debt that you're about to blithely walk into?
If you want me to state my career goals with confidence then I want to go into litigation, particularly appellate litigation, in a secondary market.

You're doing the same "I have decent stats so I may as well go to law school" dance that so many people did pre recession and led to so many people being unhappy.

Despite the "this is an odd cycle" anecdotal stuff said previously, every cycle is odd. There is a website that has collected numbers of applicants from previous cycles that give you odds on your chances. You should be getting money from lower t13s which better accommodate your situation (no sense of what you want to do or what it takes so offering you the ability to walk stupidly into a profession debt free).

I'm disappointed in your decision making and that someone with a 4.0 would make such a numbskull decision as you are.

I apologize for the typos, as I'm so agitated that I couldn't be bothered to proofread.

Don't go to law school this year. Think about what

I take exception to almost every point here. It may be that my original undergraduate major was a bad decision, but currently the only option they have for getting a career is pursuing graduate education. The reason I so hedged about my career goals is that unlike many people who shift during law school from their indignantly stated career goals, I'm aware that I do not know the full extent of what I want to do.
I don't know how you can know that I will get full scholarship to lower t13s that will allow me to do whatever I want with this numbskull. Others have raised the possibility that perhaps one or another but nobody seems to be as confident as you.

"The only option" is to go to law school? Get a grip, kid. Sure looking for jobs is hard, but there are jobs to be had. Put some effort into this. Plenty of other people find something to do with a year while they reapply. I'm sure if you actually try you can get a job.

As others noted, take this year to get some experience doing something so that you can write a good personal statement, reapply one day one, and the odds are (literally statisticaly) that you'll have a better outcome.

[shadowfax]

If Harvard is your choice then attend this year and congrats. If not reapply next cycle and hope for the outcome your numbers should dictate.

Continuing to give shoddy advice when it comes to picking Harvard. Can you explain a single reason Harvard is worth $200k for generic Biglaw, but otherwise reapplying is the best decision?

Lawyers generally fail to understand the value of brand. That's why the don't go to business school. A Prius and a Tesla both are environmentally sound and get you where you want to go. Actually the Prius has a much better dependability history so you have a better chance with the Prius. But pretty much every successful friend of the planet Hollywood type affluent suburb dweller on earth buys the Tesla. In fact Tesla has a market cap larger than Ford, which last year sold 6 million cars, while Tesla sold 60,000. Potential, brand, perception. If you are always going to be a lawyer, and that is not a bad thing, take the money and run. The better choice. Is C H? Never has been. Never will be.

What always makes me laugh is how people here think 0L's are brainless in all things, except that they are sure that those 0L's now know exactly what career paths they will follow. Forever.

[McMooch]

Kid, every thing you've said on this thread, from your original post (something like "clerkship or litigation, but I don't know much about either") to each of your replies scares the bejesus out of me.

You are about to saddle yourself with a ton of debt and you literally don't know what kind of job you want or what those jobs take. Assume you take on all this debt, and further assume you get a big law job--what then when you become one of the numerous people on here who complain about how horrible their life is but they can't quit because of a similar amount to debt that you're about to blithely walk into?
If you want me to state my career goals with confidence then I want to go into litigation, particularly appellate litigation, in a secondary market.

You're doing the same "I have decent stats so I may as well go to law school" dance that so many people did pre recession and led to so many people being unhappy.

Despite the "this is an odd cycle" anecdotal stuff said previously, every cycle is odd. There is a website that has collected numbers of applicants from previous cycles that give you odds on your chances. You should be getting money from lower t13s which better accommodate your situation (no sense of what you want to do or what it takes so offering you the ability to walk stupidly into a profession debt free).

I'm disappointed in your decision making and that someone with a 4.0 would make such a numbskull decision as you are.

I apologize for the typos, as I'm so agitated that I couldn't be bothered to proofread.

Don't go to law school this year. Think about what

I take exception to almost every point here. It may be that my original undergraduate major was a bad decision, but currently the only option they have for getting a career is pursuing graduate education. The reason I so hedged about my career goals is that unlike many people who shift during law school from their indignantly stated career goals, I'm aware that I do not know the full extent of what I want to do.
I don't know how you can know that I will get full scholarship to lower t13s that will allow me to do whatever I want with this numbskull. Others have raised the possibility that perhaps one or another but nobody seems to be as confident as you.

"The only option" is to go to law school? Get a grip, kid. Sure looking for jobs is hard, but there are jobs to be had. Put some effort into this. Plenty of other people find something to do with a year while they reapply. I'm sure if you actually try you can get a job.

As others noted, take this year to get some experience doing something so that you can write a good personal statement, reapply one day one, and the odds are (literally statisticaly) that you'll have a better outcome.

I've been out of college for 3 years. Worked, volunteered, and went to school. The statistics are no different whether I apply this year or next.

[jbagelboy]

If Harvard is your choice then attend this year and congrats. If not reapply next cycle and hope for the outcome your numbers should dictate.

Continuing to give shoddy advice when it comes to picking Harvard. Can you explain a single reason Harvard is worth $200k for generic Biglaw, but otherwise reapplying is the best decision?

Lawyers generally fail to understand the value of brand. That's why the don't go to business school. A Prius and a Tesla both are environmentally sound and get you where you want to go. Actually the Prius has a much better dependability history so you have a better chance with the Prius. But pretty much every successful friend of the planet Hollywood type affluent suburb dweller on earth buys the Tesla. In fact Tesla has a market cap larger than Ford, which last year sold 6 million cars, while Tesla sold 60,000. Potential, brand, perception. If you are always going to be a lawyer, and that is not a bad thing, take the money and run. The better choice. Is C H? Never has been. Never will be.

What always makes me laugh is how people here think 0L's are brainless in all things, except that they are sure that those 0L's now know exactly what career paths they will follow. Forever.

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

[McMooch]

New poll everyone!
Sorry I didn't include it on the first one.
Make your voices heard!

[jbagelboy]

also there's this bizarre presumption shadowfax makes that HLS opens these non-law avenues that other similar schools like CLS do not. In reality they are both law schools. The vast majority of the graduates of each will become lawyers and will stay lawyers. Some Columbia grads, and some Harvard grads, will leave law and have tremendously successful (or unsuccessful) careers in other fields. There's no field difference, just possibly a magnitude one.

[lawlorbust]

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

Shockingly, no one--like, not no one at HLS, but no one in the world--thinks that CLS is one of HLS's peer schools. Is the "they are basically the same" argument really the hill you want to die on?

[hlsperson123]

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

Shockingly, no one--like, not no one at HLS, but no one in the world--thinks that CLS is one of HLS's peer schools. Is the "they are basically the same" argument really the hill you want to die on?

Haha I have to pile on for this one. “jbagelboy, stop trying to make 'Harvard and Columbia are peer schools' happen! It’s not going to happen!”

[SmokeytheBear]

Kid, every thing you've said on this thread, from your original post (something like "clerkship or litigation, but I don't know much about either") to each of your replies scares the bejesus out of me.

You are about to saddle yourself with a ton of debt and you literally don't know what kind of job you want or what those jobs take. Assume you take on all this debt, and further assume you get a big law job--what then when you become one of the numerous people on here who complain about how horrible their life is but they can't quit because of a similar amount to debt that you're about to blithely walk into?
If you want me to state my career goals with confidence then I want to go into litigation, particularly appellate litigation, in a secondary market.

You're doing the same "I have decent stats so I may as well go to law school" dance that so many people did pre recession and led to so many people being unhappy.

Despite the "this is an odd cycle" anecdotal stuff said previously, every cycle is odd. There is a website that has collected numbers of applicants from previous cycles that give you odds on your chances. You should be getting money from lower t13s which better accommodate your situation (no sense of what you want to do or what it takes so offering you the ability to walk stupidly into a profession debt free).

I'm disappointed in your decision making and that someone with a 4.0 would make such a numbskull decision as you are.

I apologize for the typos, as I'm so agitated that I couldn't be bothered to proofread.

Don't go to law school this year. Think about what

I take exception to almost every point here. It may be that my original undergraduate major was a bad decision, but currently the only option they have for getting a career is pursuing graduate education. The reason I so hedged about my career goals is that unlike many people who shift during law school from their indignantly stated career goals, I'm aware that I do not know the full extent of what I want to do.
I don't know how you can know that I will get full scholarship to lower t13s that will allow me to do whatever I want with this numbskull. Others have raised the possibility that perhaps one or another but nobody seems to be as confident as you.

"The only option" is to go to law school? Get a grip, kid. Sure looking for jobs is hard, but there are jobs to be had. Put some effort into this. Plenty of other people find something to do with a year while they reapply. I'm sure if you actually try you can get a job.

As others noted, take this year to get some experience doing something so that you can write a good personal statement, reapply one day one, and the odds are (literally statisticaly) that you'll have a better outcome.

I've been out of college for 3 years. Worked, volunteered, and went to school. The statistics are no different whether I apply this year or next.

As true as a statement as those made by climate change deniers.


Thank you for updating poll.

[Rigo]

I'd deposit at Columbia but still haggle them through all of May and get another $30-$45k. I'm probably particularly shameless though. Something to consider. Know your worth and hint at willingness to walk (tactfully). You can also buy more time to decide Columbia v. reapply in this scenario.

There is a disconnect between your stats and outcomes for sure but I don't see that you did anything glaringly wrong. You're honestly probably just kind of boring and uninspiring (no offense, I am too probably). I have a few friends with pretty good/great stats (3.9's & 174-176) that ended up with Butler v. H/S and YP+unlucky breaks in the T13. They were k-jd though so pretty unintentesting from a softs perspective. Sometimes it's just the way the cookie crumbles. I don't really get your Northwestern $0 or your initial Columbia hold so maybe something is in fact wrong with your app. *shrug*

I think tackling it in two separate micro decisions is the way to go.
Choose Columbia v. Harvard now and then tackle Winner v. Reapply

[jbagelboy]

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

Shockingly, no one--like, not no one at HLS, but no one in the world--thinks that CLS is one of HLS's peer schools. Is the "they are basically the same" argument really the hill you want to die on?

you've deeply mischaracterized my comment. they are not basically the same. it depends on how narrowly you are defining a peer group, which is an empirical question. in the microscopic focus of law school applicants and certain classes of employers, Harvard's only true peer school is Stanford. the broader you go, the broader the peer group. you are incorrect in stating that people do not consider CLS and HLS, among other top schools like Stanford, Chicago, and NYU, to be "peers" in the general sense that they are all top flight law programs that offer substantially similar opportunities. that's how most people actually think about this. anyway that is not the focus of the debate. If Harvard and Columbia were equally priced I would say Harvard every time barring some personal irregularity. if you want to use the hybrid car analogy for law schools, a prius is like UCLA. CLS and HLS are like two teslas where the HLS tesla has some frills and a slightly more powerful engine. Some shitty Russian attempt at a hybrid that doesn't work would be a TTT.

[jbagelboy]

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

Shockingly, no one--like, not no one at HLS, but no one in the world--thinks that CLS is one of HLS's peer schools. Is the "they are basically the same" argument really the hill you want to die on?

Haha I have to pile on for this one. “jbagelboy, stop trying to make 'Harvard and Columbia are peer schools' happen! It’s not going to happen!”

not my point.

[jbagelboy]

Also, as I said on the first page, I think this is a tossup at this price point and HLS could be justified. So I'm not offering the schools as an equal value proposition.

[Dcc617]

the prius / tesla analogy has no relevance to Columbia / Harvard, which are just two very similar models of Teslas.

also law schools don't have brands

Shockingly, no one--like, not no one at HLS, but no one in the world--thinks that CLS is one of HLS's peer schools. Is the "they are basically the same" argument really the hill you want to die on?

Haha I have to pile on for this one. “jbagelboy, stop trying to make 'Harvard and Columbia are peer schools' happen! It’s not going to happen!”

I mean, for most outcomes they're pretty close to identical. They're really good schools with excellent job placement numbers. Like the rest of the T13.

You guys seem way too hung up on the idea of 'lay prestige', 'branding', or 'it's HARVARD'. I don't even know what ya'll mean by "peer schools" anymore. It seems like silly 0L grasping at rankings.

OP, I only decided to go to Harvard because I'm on the GI bill and no other school was willing to give me a living stipend on top of that. There is no way in hell I would pay 200K plus when I could have had big money at Penn, UVA, etc.

[cdotson2]

As true as a statement as those made by climate change deniers.


Thank you for updating poll.

What's your opinion on the possibility of a tougher cycle next year (because of growing LSAT takers, also Harvard is accepting GRE next year so probably more apps)? also having a gap year filled with good employment can be helpful, but is working at some random office going to increase your status for high level apps or lower it? I don't think it is as simple as waiting always makes you a more attractive applicant. I think you are simplifying the situation too far.

[Nebby]

Only in the minds of 0Ls and in discussions among HLS alumni are CLS and HLS not peer schools.

[shadowfax]

Kid, every thing you've said on this thread, from your original post (something like "clerkship or litigation, but I don't know much about either") to each of your replies scares the bejesus out of me.

You are about to saddle yourself with a ton of debt and you literally don't know what kind of job you want or what those jobs take. Assume you take on all this debt, and further assume you get a big law job--what then when you become one of the numerous people on here who complain about how horrible their life is but they can't quit because of a similar amount to debt that you're about to blithely walk into?
If you want me to state my career goals with confidence then I want to go into litigation, particularly appellate litigation, in a secondary market.

You're doing the same "I have decent stats so I may as well go to law school" dance that so many people did pre recession and led to so many people being unhappy.

Despite the "this is an odd cycle" anecdotal stuff said previously, every cycle is odd. There is a website that has collected numbers of applicants from previous cycles that give you odds on your chances. You should be getting money from lower t13s which better accommodate your situation (no sense of what you want to do or what it takes so offering you the ability to walk stupidly into a profession debt free).

I'm disappointed in your decision making and that someone with a 4.0 would make such a numbskull decision as you are.

I apologize for the typos, as I'm so agitated that I couldn't be bothered to proofread.

Don't go to law school this year. Think about what

I take exception to almost every point here. It may be that my original undergraduate major was a bad decision, but currently the only option they have for getting a career is pursuing graduate education. The reason I so hedged about my career goals is that unlike many people who shift during law school from their indignantly stated career goals, I'm aware that I do not know the full extent of what I want to do.
I don't know how you can know that I will get full scholarship to lower t13s that will allow me to do whatever I want with this numbskull. Others have raised the possibility that perhaps one or another but nobody seems to be as confident as you.

"The only option" is to go to law school? Get a grip, kid. Sure looking for jobs is hard, but there are jobs to be had. Put some effort into this. Plenty of other people find something to do with a year while they reapply. I'm sure if you actually try you can get a job.

As others noted, take this year to get some experience doing something so that you can write a good personal statement, reapply one day one, and the odds are (literally statisticaly) that you'll have a better outcome.

I've been out of college for 3 years. Worked, volunteered, and went to school. The statistics are no different whether I apply this year or next.

As true as a statement as those made by climate change deniers.


Thank you for updating poll.

Complete tangent. Climate deniers. Science. Saw Christine Whitman the other day speaking in support of climate change and science. The same person who said the EPA, under her watch, had tested the air at ground zero and had determined it was safe. How many more people died due to that brilliant science? Soldiers on ships watching nuclear tests. Asbestos the wonder material. Science in this day and age is money not science. A lot like venue shopping. Watch John Oliver's show on scientific studies. Brilliant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw And no one could mistake him for a conservative.

[UVA2B]

DCC covered this, but you're assuming a lengthy career in Biglaw, which is statistically unlikely considering law firms work mostly on heavily leveraged business models that necessarily requires attrition. So you could be the Biglaw associate coming from Penn with $60k debt a year later who will more likely than not get pushed out for a number of reasons after 3-5 years, or you could be a Columbia grad with $140k debt that gets pushed out a year earlier.

That might not end up being you and you might become a shiny, really expensive partner at your biglaw firm, but statistics will tell you that's unlikely to happen. So you're really looking at getting back to zero net worth and then moving on to a lower paying gig sooner.

TLS and math. First, the length of his career doesn't correlate with when he goes into law school. Assume a number of years he'll be in biglaw and stick with it. If he's going to have five years as a biglaw associate going in this year, his career isn't magically going to lengthen (or shorten) to six (or four) years just because he decided to defer a year.

Even if you're risk-averse (because he might be forced out) or assume he'll job-hop once he reaches a certain age, OP went to a TTT in the 160s. What does a realistic entry-level job from that rank of school make? Optimistically, 40-50k? The delta between that and the in-house job he lands up with is still going to >! $60k.

First, I did pick a number and stuck with it. I went with 3-5 years total in Biglaw from either school. The only difference then becomes whether they transition out in 6-8 years from this fall (taking current options) or 7-9 years (reapplying and ideally getting better options because they refine their app to be stronger for scholarships in lower T13).

Now, assuming they make $40-50k for this year while saving themselves potentially (because nothing is guaranteed) $80k+, we're now talking about $120-130k difference in total current value because you can't pretend like that salary in an entry level job doesn't count in calculating the value of waiting a year and reapplying (which does not take into account present value vs. future value of increased income or increased cost paying off the extra debt).

Lastly, you really can't compare a potential in-house salary that you'll get a year sooner to the pay you'll be getting in the upcoming year because that's really apples and oranges. Let's assume, however, you're paying off $60k debt at a school like Penn or paying off $140k debt at Columbia. On a standard 10 year debt repayment plan, you'll be paying ~$700/month for a total debt repayment of ~$84,000. Columbia at $140k on a standard debt repayment plan would be ~$1600/month for a total debt repayment of ~$197k. Both of those amounts are reasonable in a vacuum when considering the amount of income you're looking at coming out of both schools, but what we're talking about here is relative value. You're signing on for paying $100k more in debt repayment to get into the same career arc one year sooner. And that's $100k that could be put into smart investing when you pay off the debt early, which is likely to improve the return on that extra $100k to be even greater.

Present value of money really does matter here, because looking at future salaries in isolation is really, really incomplete.

[Dcc617]

Only in the minds of 0Ls and in discussions among HLS alumni are CLS and HLS not peer schools.

People are really hard on HLS kids on TLS. I bet a lot of the most insufferable ones are equally hated in real life.

[UVA2B]

Only in the minds of 0Ls and in discussions among HLS alumni are CLS and HLS not peer schools.

People are really hard on HLS kids on TLS. I bet a lot of the most insufferable ones are equally hated in real life.

You're one of the few absolutely fair HLSers I've seen on TLS, and it's likely because Harvard=$0 debt for you. HLS at zero debt is better than Penn at zero debt. It only becomes subjective when other factors come into play (career goals, cost, specific geographic preferences, etc.)