Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

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landshoes

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Re: Ruby from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby landshoes » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:07 pm

Lordcarnus123 wrote:
enoca wrote:Ruby seems like the obvious answer. If you are still leaning Harvard, why not elaborate why? That way people can address any specific concerns you have.

Fair. Off the top of my head why HLS isn't completely out of the picture:
1. Quarter system/semester system, and grades. At HLS everybody sounded a lot more relaxed about them, whereas Chicago students emphasized to me how stressed the rhythm of the quarter and fine differentiation in final grade made everyone.
2. Honestly, the name. This is not me willfully ignoring peoples' notions that the H brand provides marginal lift at best. Rather, I've only seen it taken as a given on TLS that HLS is hardly ever worth it. So I'm asking for an affirmative argument for the following: any long-term career benefit of H over C is marginal at best. Exactly how is it marginal, and what do these margins look like?


I like the fine differentiation in grades because I like my high Bs to be high Bs and not generic Bs. It would suck to have a grade cliff like you do in an H/P system. But if I were a B or B- student or even an A- student I'd maybe prefer to be in a wider range of performance.

The quarter system is very real. I liked it for most of 1L, a lot of it is personality. I am happy with a relatively fast pace and more frequent breaks. Plus you meet more profs which I loved. A lot is how much you are stressed by novelty vs motivated by it.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:30 pm

Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:33 pm

UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Even then though, that's a $100k+ cost difference.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:35 pm

Rigo wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Even then though, that's a $100k+ cost difference.


I never fully calculate what need-based aid is at HYS, and if that's true, then full tuition at UChicago is always the better call. I'd say $50k difference is my absolute limit in different COA personally.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:37 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Rigo wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Even then though, that's a $100k+ cost difference.

I never fully calculate what need-based aid is at HYS, and if that's true, then full tuition at UChicago is always the better call. I'd say $50k difference is my absolute limit in different COA personally.

Even with max aid, HYS cost around $150k (including COL). Even if you are homeless without two nickels to your name, they have an aid floor that is well above a full ride.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:41 pm

UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:41 pm

Rigo wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Rigo wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Even then though, that's a $100k+ cost difference.

I never fully calculate what need-based aid is at HYS, and if that's true, then full tuition at UChicago is always the better call. I'd say $50k difference is my absolute limit in different COA personally.

Even with max aid, HYS cost around $150k (including COL). Even if you are homeless without two nickels to your name, they have an aid floor that is well above a full ride.


Assuming COL would be approximately a wash (since full tuition wouldn't cover COL at all), that would make the difference $75k-100k tops, but the point still stands.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:45 pm

rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Yeah, that's really hard to quantify exactly because it could be entirely institutional support that led to those disparately good outcomes, or it could be some mixture of institutional support combined with the relatively weak but nonetheless still existent correlation between LSAT and uGPA with law school grades. There is a non-zero dollar amount in getting a Ruby (beyond the additional stipend), but to try to place a dollar value on it is prone to using it to impact the decision more or less than it actually should. It matters, but to what extent none of us can explicitly say.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby curry1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:46 pm

rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:48 pm

curry1 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.


I'm pretty sure no one is getting elite clerkships solely based on their "institutional support". Judges have GPA cutoffs.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:48 pm

UVA2B wrote:Assuming COL would be approximately a wash (since full tuition wouldn't cover COL at all), that would make the difference $75k-100k tops, but the point still stands.

Yeah I was factoring in the lower COL in Chicago plus the Ruby stipend and just doing a ballpark estimate but maybe I was on the higher end.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:53 pm

curry1 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.


they don't. don't worry about this.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Desert Fox » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:26 pm

There has to be something more than the correlation of lsat/gpa. That correlation is just not that strong. Are we sure those are the only 16 Ruby winners? or did they leave off some turds? Though just pushing people to apply to as many clerkships as possible would juice things a bit.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Lordcarnus123 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:27 pm

Any chi peeps to weigh in?

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:27 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
curry1 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.


they don't. don't worry about this.

Is that true? I raised it because, in past threads, Ruby recipients at Chicago discussed how the law school goes out of its way to set up clerkship opportunities for the Ruby Scholars. Perhaps they weren't being truthful, but the other explanation—that the 70% clerkship placement for Ruby Scholars is simply due to coincidence or superior pre-LS credentials—strikes me as unlikely.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:29 pm

I don't think the issue is what percentage of Rubies get clerkships, but what percentage Rubies make up of all Chicago's clerks.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby curry1 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:39 pm

rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
curry1 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Full tuition tuition scholarship discount at UChi still better than HLS unless HLS has significant need-based aid coming with it.

Also, it sounds like the Ruby recipients get institutional support that contributes to the outcomes we saw linked to upthread. If OP isn't actually getting a Ruby, the impact could be more than just financial.


Not OP, but if institutional support rather than the scholars' merits are driving elite COA placemnent among Rubenstein recipients, I am definitely going to HY if I get off either of those waitlists. It sucks that UChicago is potentially picking winners and losers for elite clerkships based on pre-law school credentials.


they don't. don't worry about this.

Is that true? I raised it because, in past threads, Ruby recipients at Chicago discussed how the law school goes out of its way to set up clerkship opportunities for the Ruby Scholars. Perhaps they weren't being truthful, but the other explanation—that the 70% clerkship placement for Ruby Scholars is simply due to coincidence or superior pre-LS credentials—strikes me as unlikely.


It is doubtful that I will ever be in a position where elite appellate clerkship placement is relevant (even if I miraculously get into Y), but it would be nice to feel like the law school I'm going to is an even playing field (of sorts).

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I don't think the issue is what percentage of Rubies get clerkships, but what percentage Rubies make up of all Chicago's clerks.

Why isn't the issue of what % of Rubies get clerkships relevant? If 70% of them get clerkships compared to 10% for the rest of the students, that seems pretty meaningful to me.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:34 pm

I've heard the same as rpupkin. Not a UChi student but anectodedly I know a Ruby person who had no interest in Clerking because transactional who got pressure from the school to apply.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby it's allgood » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:23 pm

How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration). Those are all things that are important to me and why I would choose Harvard over Chicago; and Harvard would be worth the debt for me. But it really depends on what is important to you and what your priorities are. If having the lowest debt possible is a priority, the go to Chicago! Also, if a clerkship is a priority, then you may want to consider whether your chance is better at Chicago than Harvard. But are you getting a Ruby at Chicago? Because it seems like from your edit that may not be the case. If you are not getting the Ruby, then is your chance for a clerkship any better at Chicago than at Harvard? Further, it seems like you have a stronger connection to Harvard. I recommend going with the place that feels best for you. Because both are great schools!

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Nebby » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:37 pm

it's allgood wrote:How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration). Those are all things that are important to me and why I would choose Harvard over Chicago; and Harvard would be worth the debt for me. But it really depends on what is important to you and what your priorities are. If having the lowest debt possible is a priority, the go to Chicago! Also, if a clerkship is a priority, then you may want to consider whether your chance is better at Chicago than Harvard. But are you getting a Ruby at Chicago? Because it seems like from your edit that may not be the case. If you are not getting the Ruby, then is your chance for a clerkship any better at Chicago than at Harvard? Further, it seems like you have a stronger connection to Harvard. I recommend going with the place that feels best for you. Because both are great schools!

This was incredibly unhelpful. Your own decision in a hypothetical situation is of no help

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:40 pm

it's allgood wrote:How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration). Those are all things that are important to me and why I would choose Harvard over Chicago; and Harvard would be worth the debt for me. But it really depends on what is important to you and what your priorities are. If having the lowest debt possible is a priority, the go to Chicago! Also, if a clerkship is a priority, then you may want to consider whether your chance is better at Chicago than Harvard. But are you getting a Ruby at Chicago? Because it seems like from your edit that may not be the case. If you are not getting the Ruby, then what is your chance for a clerkship any better at Chicago than at Harvard? Further, it seems like you have a stronger connection to Harvard. I recommend going with the place that feels best for you. Because both are great schools!


None of the stuff you just listed should really matter in the least in making this decision when talking about major debt vs. free.

1. Location. You won't be spending all that much time playing around the city, but to think that taking on six figure debt because you like Boston/Cambridge better than Chicago/Hyde Park would be silly. Both cities give you substantially the same opportunities to do the things that interest you (not saying they are at all the same cities, but just that most macro interests can be accomplished in any city of this size).

2. More law courses/experts teaching law courses. I know you don't realize this yet, but while a given school may offer a few more courses in a given field of law, or might allow you to take classes in a range of topics outside of the law school, this is another pointless reason that will have no impact on your future for the average student. Harvard has more professors with serious pull for getting Fed. Clerkships, which should be considered if clerking interests you. But taking a couple extra "Constitutional Law" taught by Tribe or taking one class at Kennedy because you can will be such a fleeting thing in the grand scheme of your career to put this as only a cost tiebreaker. If you are lucky enough to get a clerkship recommendation from a professor like Tribe will pay off in the clerkship chase, but those types of recommendations are extremely difficult to get (heard anecdotally from friends who went HLS, so take that FWIW).

Harvard can very reasonably be worth some debt over going to UChi, but the city it is in and number of professors or course offerings are not among them when the cost differential is six figure debt. (I also find it a bit silly to pick Harvard to get a one year Fed. Clerkship that will most likely end up in...you guessed it, Biglaw. But that's a digression and there are certainly certain clerkships that open up more unicorny jobs like appellate boutiques or particular practice groups that do really rare legal work).

This is a professional school designed to get you to your particular choice in career. You should pick based on which school gives you the best chance for the career you want, while weighing the cost of debt you'll take on to get it. Taking six figures of debt for an increase from ~15% fed clerk to ~25-30% fed clerk placement is worth something if you really want a fed clerkship, and that amount will vary subjectively from person to person, but no rational person can justify taking on that much additional debt for that kind of increase in chance of a short-term career milestone.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:40 pm

it's allgood wrote:How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration). Those are all things that are important to me and why I would choose Harvard over Chicago; and Harvard would be worth the debt for me. But it really depends on what is important to you and what your priorities are. If having the lowest debt possible is a priority, the go to Chicago! Also, if a clerkship is a priority, then you may want to consider whether your chance is better at Chicago than Harvard. But are you getting a Ruby at Chicago? Because it seems like from your edit that may not be the case. If you are not getting the Ruby, then is your chance for a clerkship any better at Chicago than at Harvard? Further, it seems like you have a stronger connection to Harvard. I recommend going with the place that feels best for you. Because both are great schools!

Those are all shit factors when we're talking like the cost of a Ferrari on the other side.

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:42 pm

it's allgood wrote:How important is quality of life for the 3 years you will be at law school? If it were me, I would choose Harvard because a) Cambridge and Boston are awesome and I prefer those to Chicago/ Hyde Park b) Harvard while larger in class size also offers more law courses, has more law professors, has more centers, and has many experts in other fields (in case you would like to take a class outside of the law school and do a little exploration).

(poster who would choose GULC over YLS)

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Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:50 pm

rpupkin wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I don't think the issue is what percentage of Rubies get clerkships, but what percentage Rubies make up of all Chicago's clerks.

Why isn't the issue of what % of Rubies get clerkships relevant? If 70% of them get clerkships compared to 10% for the rest of the students, that seems pretty meaningful to me.

It's the comparison to the rest of students that's meaningful, which is what I meant by what percentage Rubies are of
Chicago's clerks. I inartfully was trying to say that percentage of Rubies matters only as it compares to everyone else (who wants to clerk) - is their clerking rate disproportionate (and can we ever know what role self-selection plays in this).



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