UVA2B wrote: Lavitz wrote: HonestlyThough wrote:
Lavitz wrote:Pretty sure everyone's just skeptical of the likelihood. I think we've done as much as we can to explain why that might end up not being the case.
But it sounds like you know what the situation is and what you have to do to get rid of the debt: get and stay in a low-paying job, and don't get married for 10 years. So if you're still willing to do that in order to go to Harvard, then go ahead. One more Ruby will go to someone who could use the money.
why might it not end up being the case? Actually, no one has given an explanation as to why it would be reasonably NOT the case, short of me deciding I hate everything I've ever wanted to do and choose instead to open up a sock store after I graduate law school.
You do know there are legal jobs other than the ones you've listed that don't involve opening a sock store, right? Ones that you may discover you want to go into, but which won't qualify for LIPP or which will pay enough for you to end up paying a lot more under LIPP than you would have if you went with the Ruby.
I was referring to comments like this emphasizing that your interest may change:
Npret wrote:What happens if you lose your job? What happens if you need to stay home for some reason? What happens if you can't find a qualifying job that you want? I know Harvards definition is broad but maybe you will have time of extended unemployment?
You are relying on LIPP but what if that changes? What if you change your mind? What if you marry someone who's income pushes you out of LIPP?
You are just digging yourself a large and completely unnecessary hole.
But ok, let's try this again. How do you know you want to do "impact litigation," "movement lawyering," or "policy work"? Do you have previous experience in these fields? Interning? Connections with people who work in them? If so, then you may be right that there's very little chance you'll decide to do something else. But you haven't provided us with any context. For all we know, you read about some public interest organization in college and thought, "hey, that sounds cool, I want to do that." That's my story. I came into law school thinking I wanted to do impact litigation. Now I'm not.
Again, you could be different and 100% committed to these three areas. But it seems like you're assuming everyone here should just accept your assertions about your commitment at face value. In response, all we can really say is that your interests may change, so you should take that into consideration. If they do, Ruby saves you money. If they don't, then maybe LIPP gets you to around the same cost.
In addition, it seems like employment outcomes may be better for Rubies than for average Harvard grads, but that's another topic that's already been beaten to death. Don't know what else you want to hear from us at this point.
To piggyback off of this in contextualizing your chosen fields: you're assuming Harvard will
get you there. Harvard is the type of place that can
get you into national impact lit jobs, policy work, and movement lawyering (tbf I don't really know what this is unless you're thinking PI work in political/social movements like BLM or something like that), but it is not a golden ticket to those outcomes like you seem to assume. These are difficult to break into, and while Harvard will definitely help in getting you there, it won't necessarily be sufficient to get you there. It's not like you slap a resume on the desk of the hiring attorney at the ACLU and they start filling out your employment paperwork.
OP2, you're right that none of us can properly assess your commitment to your minimally defined goals (minimally defined here, not that you haven't defined them more precisely) and we have no way of knowing whether LIPP will cover those goals (which we'll assume they are since you've done your research). But you're leaving out so many variables in the rest of your life and in the pursuit of your goals by categorically assuming Harvard will get you where a Ruby @ Chicago could not. Those are big gaps in your argument, which is why people continue to attack your plan of $300k debt on LIPP vs. very minimal debt plus extra resources to get what you want at Chicago. You could be making a well-reasoned choice based on a concrete plan that you are so dead set on that we are just left to assume you're serious about. But we're also people who are objectively weighing things you might not be fully appreciating, like simply deciding you want to do something else, or missing out on the types of jobs you're laser-focused on getting, or marrying someone who makes enough to make LIPP irrelevant, but not rich enough to make your $300k debt repayments comfortable.
You're asking the anonymous masses to just assume you know what you're doing while leaving out swaths of consideration that is absolutely valid.
A few things to respond to, as it seems I wasn't very clear on some things:
1) I think there are only a few, narrow things for which Harvard would be a significant advantage over Chicago with a Ruby. Chicago is an excellent school and the Ruby comes with amazing institutional support. I don't dispute any of that. By some measures, that gives Chicago a definite edge in how well it sets up students (with a Ruby) for success. One thing I will note (and which the director of the Ruby agreed with) is that Harvard has a much bigger faculty, meaning there are more likely to be faculty and classes covering niche areas, which appears to be relevant given my interests being a bit more off the beaten path of PI and policy. Another thing of note is the student community. I've dug into this, and the sheer number of students in PI at havard means there's more people pushing for some pretty intense social change stuff. That community doesn't seem to exist to anywhere near the same extent at Chicago due to both its size and the focus of the school and students. That provides opportunities which are of value to me. I had that experience in undergrad (the benefit of that student community), and it was worth a lot.
2) It seems like you guys aren't very clear on what LIPP covers. A majority of jobs touching on policy, etc, in the private sector are eligible. Per LIPP:
"Employment in the private sector is eligible for LIPP so long as the position is law-related. For purposes of LIPP “law-related” is defined as follows:
-The distinctive intellectual skills acquired in a legal education are generally recognized as useful in the job; and
-Of those who hold this position, it is not unusual for them to be members of the legal profession."
I DO feel a near-certainty degree of confidence that the work I want to pursue will fall into that definition. I'm willing to make that gamble.
Re: parental leave, the policy is actually quite reasonable. It's very generous in its treatment of assets. I don't expect my partner to make such a significant amount that marriage would put us in a position of particular disadvantage or financial hardship.
I've really done my research on LIPP.
My conslusion regarding cost is that there's a chance of Havard saving me money (if I choose not to go into PSLF qualifying employment, or don't stay in it for a full 10 years, this is very likely. Harvard covers a very broad range of employment types. Chicago covers a much narrower set. My debt at Chicago will cost me $75-$100K if I don't qualify for PSLF
-about what I will likely pay at Havard), but that the most likely outcome is that Harvard would end up costing me somewhere between $20K and $100K more than Chicago depending on how many years of PSLF qualifying employment I do and what my salary is.
The question I should evaluate is if Harvard is worth that to me.
Edit: I've been working a few years in close contact with people who have the types of jobs I'm looking to pursue. I'm not making this career projection without knowledge and experience!