Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
bugsy33

Bronze
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby bugsy33 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:30 pm

Chicago is a pretty great town, and plus, if you're in the top of your 1L class you'll have a pretty good chance of transferring to THE University of Illinois. I'd say take the Ruby and hope for the best.

Npret

Silver
Posts: 1355
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Npret » Thu May 04, 2017 2:45 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
armc808 wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:I haven't visited.
But I'm far more pragmatic/practice minded than intellectual/academic minded. I want to use the law as a tool, not thought exercise.
I do not want a competitive, cut-throat environment
and people dear to me have told me chicago and the university will not make me happy

goal is PI - probably impact or movement lawyering.
I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

As a 0L who will be attending Chicago this fall, I just wanted to offer my two cents based on my visit to the law school.

The institutional culture of "where fun goes to die" and crass competition was something everyone had told me about when I said I was going to visit Chicago. It was something I felt very uneasy about before I visited the school, and on the flight there I was actually questioning whether I had just sunk $500 in airfare for a miserable 2 days. Once I was there, however, I actually laughed to myself because all those things I had heard about Chicago being this dreary place was absolutely not what I saw. The people there are wicked smart, you can tell that just by talking to them, but they're not jerks or crass people. Every current student I talked to (about 12 from my last count) was very friendly and upfront about their experience at the law school--what they liked, what they didn't like, and whether they felt they made the right choice (they all said yes)--and they were unanimous in saying that discussion of grades pretty much never happens there. Most of the current students also seemed to know each other (some better than others, but nevertheless still well enough to say hi and have a friendly conversation), and I think the school's small size plays a big role in allowing for those bonds to develop. My visit to Chicago was the best ASW experience I had, and thinking back to how comfortable I felt while I was there was what ultimately led me to send in my deposit check last week.


This was reassuring! Thank you.

Based off of the earnest urging to seriously consider (read: take) the ruby, I'm sinking the $1000 in last minute airfare (thank god for credit cards?) to go visit Chicago this weekend. I'm hoping it will make my decision clear. I wish I could have attended actual ASW...

Congrats OP. This will be money well spent.
In the meantime, you should look at Harvard's LIPP program because not everyone has found it to be the right program for their situation. I don't know the specifics of your situation but there are a lot of calculations to be made. Harvards website has it laid out pretty well. Maybe you've already done this and I apologize if you have.

When you're calculating a debt-free life, think of what you might do with the money that you're spending on debt. Really, make two budgets based on estimates and think about how much more freedom you will have without a loan payment in there. Also think about not having the pressure of qualifying under LIPP.

Whatever you decide, at least now you have the information you may need to make a decision. Good luck.
Last edited by Npret on Thu May 04, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
armc808

Bronze
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby armc808 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:47 pm

Rigo wrote:Maybe take it with a grain of salt bc finals. Be sure to get out in Chicago the city too to make the most of your trip!

Chicago doesn't have finals yet because of quarter system.

Rigo

Diamond
Posts: 16642
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Rigo » Thu May 04, 2017 2:48 pm

armc808 wrote:
Rigo wrote:Maybe take it with a grain of salt bc finals. Be sure to get out in Chicago the city too to make the most of your trip!

Chicago doesn't have finals yet because of quarter system.

Oooo good point

lawpotato

Bronze
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby lawpotato » Thu May 04, 2017 2:51 pm

Lordcarnus123 wrote:I was looking at $60k from Chicago vs $73k at Harvard. Ceteris paribus I was feeling Harvard more so I made up my mind. But I just received a fully offer not five minutes ago and I don't know which way is up.

Career goals: clerking (COA), DOJ honors, fedgov long-term (either DOJ or SEC).

What do?

EDIT: I initially said I got a Ruby, which is tuition + stipend. Turns out I'm (just) getting full tuition.


OP pls tell us what you picked. I've been following this thread for too long just to rely on speculation and fake news. pls pls pls

User avatar
armc808

Bronze
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby armc808 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:52 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
armc808 wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:I haven't visited.
But I'm far more pragmatic/practice minded than intellectual/academic minded. I want to use the law as a tool, not thought exercise.
I do not want a competitive, cut-throat environment
and people dear to me have told me chicago and the university will not make me happy

goal is PI - probably impact or movement lawyering.
I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

As a 0L who will be attending Chicago this fall, I just wanted to offer my two cents based on my visit to the law school.

The institutional culture of "where fun goes to die" and crass competition was something everyone had told me about when I said I was going to visit Chicago. It was something I felt very uneasy about before I visited the school, and on the flight there I was actually questioning whether I had just sunk $500 in airfare for a miserable 2 days. Once I was there, however, I actually laughed to myself because all those things I had heard about Chicago being this dreary place was absolutely not what I saw. The people there are wicked smart, you can tell that just by talking to them, but they're not jerks or crass people. Every current student I talked to (about 12 from my last count) was very friendly and upfront about their experience at the law school--what they liked, what they didn't like, and whether they felt they made the right choice (they all said yes)--and they were unanimous in saying that discussion of grades pretty much never happens there. Most of the current students also seemed to know each other (some better than others, but nevertheless still well enough to say hi and have a friendly conversation), and I think the school's small size plays a big role in allowing for those bonds to develop. My visit to Chicago was the best ASW experience I had, and thinking back to how comfortable I felt while I was there was what ultimately led me to send in my deposit check last week.


This was reassuring! Thank you.

Based off of the earnest urging to seriously consider (read: take) the ruby, I'm sinking the $1000 in last minute airfare (thank god for credit cards?) to go visit Chicago this weekend. I'm hoping it will make my decision clear. I wish I could have attended actual ASW...

Np! And $1,000 is a small drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things (aka the 40 years+ legal career that awaits you). Even if after your trip you decide on HLS, it's better to make that decision after seeing the alternative for yourself and knowing you made the right choice. Wishing you the best on your decision!

ytrewq321

New
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:54 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby ytrewq321 » Thu May 04, 2017 3:57 pm

For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.

Monday

Silver
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:36 am

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Monday » Thu May 04, 2017 4:03 pm

.
Last edited by Monday on Thu May 11, 2017 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10276
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 04, 2017 4:27 pm

ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Congratulations. That's the right call.

shadowfax

Bronze
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:39 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby shadowfax » Thu May 04, 2017 4:50 pm

ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.

lurkin_hard

New
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby lurkin_hard » Thu May 04, 2017 5:44 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
Npret wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:
Lordcarnus123 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
Monday wrote:
Rigo wrote:I wonder what OP did.

Taking bets.


I bet Harvard. The fact that he was asking the question meant that he already knew his answer. Because there is objectively not a question.

Not too bad a read on my priors. I'll give 3:2 odds to H


Hi hopping in because I just got offered the ruby but still want to got to harvard and feel slightly insane.
however, chicago's institutional...vibe...sounds like a nightmare to me

Have you visited the school?
What's your goal and your debt from Harvard because turning down Ruby is insane.


I haven't visited.
But I'm far more pragmatic/practice minded than intellectual/academic minded. I want to use the law as a tool, not thought exercise.
I do not want a competitive, cut-throat environment
and people dear to me have told me chicago and the university will not make me happy

goal is PI - probably impact or movement lawyering.
I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt


Chicago really isn't cut throat at all...

Where did you get that idea?

User avatar
lawlzschool

Bronze
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 8:57 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby lawlzschool » Fri May 05, 2017 5:06 pm

armc808 wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:I haven't visited.
But I'm far more pragmatic/practice minded than intellectual/academic minded. I want to use the law as a tool, not thought exercise.
I do not want a competitive, cut-throat environment
and people dear to me have told me chicago and the university will not make me happy

goal is PI - probably impact or movement lawyering.
I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

As a 0L who will be attending Chicago this fall, I just wanted to offer my two cents based on my visit to the law school.

The institutional culture of "where fun goes to die" and crass competition was something everyone had told me about when I said I was going to visit Chicago. It was something I felt very uneasy about before I visited the school, and on the flight there I was actually questioning whether I had just sunk $500 in airfare for a miserable 2 days. Once I was there, however, I actually laughed to myself because all those things I had heard about Chicago being this dreary place was absolutely not what I saw. The people there are wicked smart, you can tell that just by talking to them, but they're not jerks or crass people. Every current student I talked to (about 12 from my last count) was very friendly and upfront about their experience at the law school--what they liked, what they didn't like, and whether they felt they made the right choice (they all said yes)--and they were unanimous in saying that discussion of grades pretty much never happens there. Most of the current students also seemed to know each other (some better than others, but nevertheless still well enough to say hi and have a friendly conversation), and I think the school's small size plays a big role in allowing for those bonds to develop. My visit to Chicago was the best ASW experience I had, and thinking back to how comfortable I felt while I was there was what ultimately led me to send in my deposit check last week.


180% agree, except that i talked to probably 50-75 students (needed a lot of convincing) and felt the same way

User avatar
UVA2B

Gold
Posts: 3421
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Fri May 05, 2017 5:31 pm

ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sanity has returned to the ranks of 0Ls making this decision! Hallelujah!

HonestlyThough

Bronze
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:17 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby HonestlyThough » Fri May 05, 2017 5:48 pm

shadowfax wrote:
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.



Thanks for sharing that thought process ytrewq! I'm sure it doesn't help that I have already committed to Harvard, as well. I was in the process of deciding if I wanted to stay on Y's waitlist, then BAM. Admission into Chi with a Ruby to go with tit.

I am thinking very carefully about it; I do understand that debt limits my freedom a bit. But the money will never really be in hand for me if I go to Chicago. I'm very confident in my path, and it is very low paid. My debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of my debt, as I know I will be making little enough that Harvard would be paying the bulk of it back. For those going into Big Law, the $240k of the Ruby is truly money in their pocket once they graduate, as they WOULD be paying their own debt back.

I've read the entire LIPP policy in detail, and I'm confident that my chosen path will fall underqualifying employment. I think the biggest difficulties I will face are that debt repayment discourages marriage and forces you to find a job with mternity leave if you want to have kids. Neither of those are particularly huge obstacles.

That all being said, I didn't expect to love harvard, and I did. Perhaps I will find Chi much better than expected. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind (but WOW it's cold)

Phil Brooks

Bronze
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:59 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Phil Brooks » Fri May 05, 2017 6:12 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.



Thanks for sharing that thought process ytrewq! I'm sure it doesn't help that I have already committed to Harvard, as well. I was in the process of deciding if I wanted to stay on Y's waitlist, then BAM. Admission into Chi with a Ruby to go with tit.

I am thinking very carefully about it; I do understand that debt limits my freedom a bit. But the money will never really be in hand for me if I go to Chicago. I'm very confident in my path, and it is very low paid. My debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of my debt, as I know I will be making little enough that Harvard would be paying the bulk of it back. For those going into Big Law, the $240k of the Ruby is truly money in their pocket once they graduate, as they WOULD be paying their own debt back.

I've read the entire LIPP policy in detail, and I'm confident that my chosen path will fall underqualifying employment. I think the biggest difficulties I will face are that debt repayment discourages marriage and forces you to find a job with mternity leave if you want to have kids. Neither of those are particularly huge obstacles.

That all being said, I didn't expect to love harvard, and I did. Perhaps I will find Chi much better than expected. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind (but WOW it's cold)


You seem to be very prestige obsessed. I'm guessing you will of course have to send your kids to "the best" private schools. Good luck paying $60k a year on an LIPP-qualifying salary.

HonestlyThough

Bronze
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:17 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby HonestlyThough » Fri May 05, 2017 6:17 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.



Thanks for sharing that thought process ytrewq! I'm sure it doesn't help that I have already committed to Harvard, as well. I was in the process of deciding if I wanted to stay on Y's waitlist, then BAM. Admission into Chi with a Ruby to go with tit.

I am thinking very carefully about it; I do understand that debt limits my freedom a bit. But the money will never really be in hand for me if I go to Chicago. I'm very confident in my path, and it is very low paid. My debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of my debt, as I know I will be making little enough that Harvard would be paying the bulk of it back. For those going into Big Law, the $240k of the Ruby is truly money in their pocket once they graduate, as they WOULD be paying their own debt back.

I've read the entire LIPP policy in detail, and I'm confident that my chosen path will fall underqualifying employment. I think the biggest difficulties I will face are that debt repayment discourages marriage and forces you to find a job with mternity leave if you want to have kids. Neither of those are particularly huge obstacles.

That all being said, I didn't expect to love harvard, and I did. Perhaps I will find Chi much better than expected. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind (but WOW it's cold)


You seem to be very prestige obsessed. I'm guessing you will of course have to send your kids to "the best" private schools. Good luck paying $60k a year on an LIPP-qualifying salary.


I'm not sure why on earth you think that or why you think you know me. I'm looking to prepare myself as well as possible to go into an impactful but probably relatively unstable career in PI, probably movement lawyering and public policy.

My father went to his local state school and my mother never went to college, and only one of the 4 educational institutions I've attended so far in my life was private (and it wasn't college). In fact, one of the things I would love to work on in my career is improving our public education system cause I think it's straight bullshit that money can buy kids a better future if their parents are willing and able to pay it to private schools. Education should be accessible and stellar for all students.

Did you forget to take your anti-bitterness pill this morning? sheesh.

p.s. even if I sent my kids to private school, I would be well out of LIPP and debt free before they were high school or college age

User avatar
Dcc617

Gold
Posts: 2322
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Dcc617 » Fri May 05, 2017 6:51 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
HonestlyThough wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.



Thanks for sharing that thought process ytrewq! I'm sure it doesn't help that I have already committed to Harvard, as well. I was in the process of deciding if I wanted to stay on Y's waitlist, then BAM. Admission into Chi with a Ruby to go with tit.

I am thinking very carefully about it; I do understand that debt limits my freedom a bit. But the money will never really be in hand for me if I go to Chicago. I'm very confident in my path, and it is very low paid. My debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of my debt, as I know I will be making little enough that Harvard would be paying the bulk of it back. For those going into Big Law, the $240k of the Ruby is truly money in their pocket once they graduate, as they WOULD be paying their own debt back.

I've read the entire LIPP policy in detail, and I'm confident that my chosen path will fall underqualifying employment. I think the biggest difficulties I will face are that debt repayment discourages marriage and forces you to find a job with mternity leave if you want to have kids. Neither of those are particularly huge obstacles.

That all being said, I didn't expect to love harvard, and I did. Perhaps I will find Chi much better than expected. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind (but WOW it's cold)


You seem to be very prestige obsessed. I'm guessing you will of course have to send your kids to "the best" private schools. Good luck paying $60k a year on an LIPP-qualifying salary.


I'm not sure why on earth you think that or why you think you know me. I'm looking to prepare myself as well as possible to go into an impactful but probably relatively unstable career in PI, probably movement lawyering and public policy.

My father went to his local state school and my mother never went to college, and only one of the 4 educational institutions I've attended so far in my life was private (and it wasn't college). In fact, one of the things I would love to work on in my career is improving our public education system cause I think it's straight bullshit that money can buy kids a better future if their parents are willing and able to pay it to private schools. Education should be accessible and stellar for all students.

Did you forget to take your anti-bitterness pill this morning? sheesh.

p.s. even if I sent my kids to private school, I would be well out of LIPP and debt free before they were high school or college age


I think it's because several of my classmates came to school with that exact plan and are already second guessing their decisions. Don't come here for some ill conceived idea of preftige.

User avatar
Po$eidon

Bronze
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:03 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Po$eidon » Fri May 05, 2017 7:17 pm

HonestlyThough wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
ytrewq321 wrote:For anyone else still struggling with this decision, I'll offer my thought process as another 0L.

Was originally offered 90k from Chicago that got bumped to 120k after asking for more. Harvard then came through with significant grant aid on a couple of days before May 1 (~30k for first year). I decided May 1 to take H knowing I would pay about 60k more (SA would probably cut into aid), but it was worth it to me. I was very happy to accept and take on 150k in debt (roughly what it would've been for me). H is a dream school. But then the Ruby came and up-ended my post-decision peace. I had an agonizing couple of days (I know, this should be obvious but I wanted H and had already decided on it before the money). I talked with a couple of friends (one at HLS, another is an S alum) and others and all said that the Ruby was amazing and is the right choice. Still I wasn't wholly convinced, because it's Harvard and to someone not from elite society, with a good job (why leave if not for the best?) how could I turn it down. Then I read this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=220025 and realized debt is awful. The freedom that will come from graduating with a positive net worth means I can go to BigLaw and pocket big cash and leave if it's not for me, or clerk for a couple years (immediate goal) and not worry about my loans and needing BigLaw after, or pursue some sort of lower paying government job, policy center, etc. I still don't know what I want to do, but I know that it won't be Chicago vs. Harvard that will hold me back, nor will it be debt since I won't have any. It'll be on me.

That said, I'm in my upper 20s and picturing a life in debt in my early 30s compared with establishing myself financially and in a career of my choosing finally made things clear. If I was 23, I can't say I would make the same choice. I probably irrationally would've chosen H, but would never have regretted it because... well H and I'd be around even by 30 (though could've been $$ instead from Chi and probably in the same place). Perhaps it's the couple of years of life experience that helped me realize I was given a winning lottery ticket late in the fourth quarter of the law school app game. I'm cashing in.


Sounds like you made the right call for yourself. These are simply equity vs debt trades. Given that no one chooses C over H even money H is perceived to have more value. How much? That is of course the question. In finance manageable debt is better to take on than giving up equity. In these cases the equity is you. Your future earnings your self image your network and anything else that attaches to the you coming out of C or H. In your case you give up a little equity in exchange for a big chuck of debt. Good trade.



Thanks for sharing that thought process ytrewq! I'm sure it doesn't help that I have already committed to Harvard, as well. I was in the process of deciding if I wanted to stay on Y's waitlist, then BAM. Admission into Chi with a Ruby to go with tit.

I am thinking very carefully about it; I do understand that debt limits my freedom a bit. But the money will never really be in hand for me if I go to Chicago. I'm very confident in my path, and it is very low paid. My debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of my debt, as I know I will be making little enough that Harvard would be paying the bulk of it back. For those going into Big Law, the $240k of the Ruby is truly money in their pocket once they graduate, as they WOULD be paying their own debt back.

I've read the entire LIPP policy in detail, and I'm confident that my chosen path will fall underqualifying employment. I think the biggest difficulties I will face are that debt repayment discourages marriage and forces you to find a job with mternity leave if you want to have kids. Neither of those are particularly huge obstacles.

That all being said, I didn't expect to love harvard, and I did. Perhaps I will find Chi much better than expected. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind (but WOW it's cold)


TAKE. THE. RUBY. No plan you intend is worth forgoing what the Ruby can give you: freedom from debt. Look at what Rubies accomplish in their lives: stellar careers and limitless options. Uchi gives you an extra market (Chi) in a very livable city that has tons of solid PI work. A lot of great PI work requires solid networking and the city placement of Uchi makes that possible. If your plans stay the same? There's a ton of reason to believe you can fully achieve that at UChi (without debt). But what if they change as they so often do for law students? You unnecessarily screw yourself taking H over the Ruby. Read this whole thread and look at what current law students and lawyers say: the Ruby is THE best outcome for law school (better than Yale). Do not throw this opportunity away cuz you'd already told yourself H - decisions can change and this one is worth it. You're literally talking hundreds of thousands of debt for one step in the USNews ranking. That's patently absurd. Show the critical thinking skills you'll need as a lawyer by taking the unquestionably best option: take the goddamn Ruby.

Paul Campos

Silver
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Paul Campos » Sat May 06, 2017 12:03 am

I'm going to be blunt: Anyone who goes to HLS at sticker over a Ruby at Chicago has less sense than a bag of hammers.

(1) There is literally no job of any kind in the legal field that you're more likely to get as an HLS student than someone going to UC on a Ruby. If you're hung up on prestige, being one of a handful of Ruby students is more prestigious than being one of Harvard's 1,700 JD students. The Ruby on average will produce better job outcomes than a generic HLS degree, especially for unicorn jobs like impact PI litigation. For your purposes, Harvard is a WORSE CHOICE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AN EXTRA $250K.

(2) The other reasons you're giving for preferring HLS in this situation are flatly absurd. You're going to pick HLS because it has a less competitive atmosphere than UC? Because it's less academic and more practically oriented? Because the weather is better? Those would all be really terrible reasons even if they were based on actual differences between the two schools, but those differences are almost completely imaginary. Harvard isn't any less competitive or more practical (LOL, seriously?) than Chicago. As for weather, leaving aside that this would under any circumstances be a bizarre basis for deciding to incur an extra quarter million in costs over 27 months of residency, you're talking as if you're considering the difference between living in Yellow Knife and San Diego, as opposed to the difference between a city that has an average high of 35 in January and another where the average is four degrees lower.

(3) Your belief that you actually know right now exactly what you'll want to be doing five years from now -- let alone in ten or twenty -- may turn out to be quite mistaken. And you talk about debt as if the only downside to it are little things like seriously limiting who you can marry or when or if you can have children.

You probably have a 7.4 GPA and a 191 LSAT and an Olympic medal in the biathlon, but in talking about this decision you sound like you're about 14.

charmonster

New
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby charmonster » Sat May 06, 2017 1:44 am

Look, man, you're just wrong that Harvard's better for practical opportunities than UChicago. You can do externships or pro bono projects as a 1L, 2Ls and 3Ls are practically guaranteed their first choice clinics, and there are a million extern/intern opportunities around the city. What's more, the clinical faculty themselves are highly impressive and well-connected. If you're as serious about PI as you claim, work closely with them, and make a good impression, I can't think of any doors that would be closed. The PI community at UChicago is small but very tight and people will seriously go to bat for committed students. And that's before you even consider the doors a clerkship (much easier to obtain as a Ruby than as an HLS student) and low/no debt will open.

Not to beat a dead horse but culture is not a good reason to choose between these schools either. Putting aside the fact that other factors are way more important, there are far greater differences within than between law schools. UChicago is especially heterogeneous (compare our public defense gunners and the fed soc chapter). I promise there is a community here for you.

shadowfax

Bronze
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:39 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby shadowfax » Sat May 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Paul Campos wrote:I'm going to be blunt: Anyone who goes to HLS at sticker over a Ruby at Chicago has less sense than a bag of hammers.

(1) There is literally no job of any kind in the legal field that you're more likely to get as an HLS student than someone going to UC on a Ruby. If you're hung up on prestige, being one of a handful of Ruby students is more prestigious than being one of Harvard's 1,700 JD students. The Ruby on average will produce better job outcomes than a generic HLS degree, especially for unicorn jobs like impact PI litigation. For your purposes, Harvard is a WORSE CHOICE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AN EXTRA $250K.

(2) The other reasons you're giving for preferring HLS in this situation are flatly absurd. You're going to pick HLS because it has a less competitive atmosphere than UC? Because it's less academic and more practically oriented? Because the weather is better? Those would all be really terrible reasons even if they were based on actual differences between the two schools, but those differences are almost completely imaginary. Harvard isn't any less competitive or more practical (LOL, seriously?) than Chicago. As for weather, leaving aside that this would under any circumstances be a bizarre basis for deciding to incur an extra quarter million in costs over 27 months of residency, you're talking as if you're considering the difference between living in Yellow Knife and San Diego, as opposed to the difference between a city that has an average high of 35 in January and another where the average is four degrees lower.

(3) Your belief that you actually know right now exactly what you'll want to be doing five years from now -- let alone in ten or twenty -- may turn out to be quite mistaken. And you talk about debt as if the only downside to it are little things like seriously limiting who you can marry or when or if you can have children.

You probably have a 7.4 GPA and a 191 LSAT and an Olympic medal in the biathlon, but in talking about this decision you sound like you're about 14.


Yes you should take the Ruby.

That a Ruby recipient will produce a better outcome than a "generic" Harvard is baloney. It doesn't say Ruby on your diploma so I guess you carry around your award letter. Kind of like one carrying around their Y and S acceptances and the full rides they turned down (I keep mine on me at all times). The Ruby is somewhat arbitrary and I don't think many employer's trust the pre-law school designation made by an adcom to be a sure fire prediction. Maybe someday named law school schollys will be like Rhodes but I doubt it. It's a Rhodes because of where you are going not where you came from.

Within the 1700 at Harvard are likely 600-700 that have Ruby stats or better. No way to know for sure because to the best of my knowledge they don't publish Ruby stats. If Harvard ran an honors JD program like a lot of flagship states do, those stats would blow away the classes at YS and the rest. Just a matter of math. That the stats of a class of 570 essentially equal the stats of classes of 200 at YS, then the top 1/3 are off the charts. Instead Harvard breaks up into sections that mimic the whole. A very good system.

Anyway if all else fails take the advice of the Mamas and the Papas...Go where you wanna go...

User avatar
Dcc617

Gold
Posts: 2322
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby Dcc617 » Sat May 06, 2017 1:37 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:I'm going to be blunt: Anyone who goes to HLS at sticker over a Ruby at Chicago has less sense than a bag of hammers.

(1) There is literally no job of any kind in the legal field that you're more likely to get as an HLS student than someone going to UC on a Ruby. If you're hung up on prestige, being one of a handful of Ruby students is more prestigious than being one of Harvard's 1,700 JD students. The Ruby on average will produce better job outcomes than a generic HLS degree, especially for unicorn jobs like impact PI litigation. For your purposes, Harvard is a WORSE CHOICE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AN EXTRA $250K.

(2) The other reasons you're giving for preferring HLS in this situation are flatly absurd. You're going to pick HLS because it has a less competitive atmosphere than UC? Because it's less academic and more practically oriented? Because the weather is better? Those would all be really terrible reasons even if they were based on actual differences between the two schools, but those differences are almost completely imaginary. Harvard isn't any less competitive or more practical (LOL, seriously?) than Chicago. As for weather, leaving aside that this would under any circumstances be a bizarre basis for deciding to incur an extra quarter million in costs over 27 months of residency, you're talking as if you're considering the difference between living in Yellow Knife and San Diego, as opposed to the difference between a city that has an average high of 35 in January and another where the average is four degrees lower.

(3) Your belief that you actually know right now exactly what you'll want to be doing five years from now -- let alone in ten or twenty -- may turn out to be quite mistaken. And you talk about debt as if the only downside to it are little things like seriously limiting who you can marry or when or if you can have children.

You probably have a 7.4 GPA and a 191 LSAT and an Olympic medal in the biathlon, but in talking about this decision you sound like you're about 14.


Yes you should take the Ruby.

That a Ruby recipient will produce a better outcome than a "generic" Harvard is baloney. It doesn't say Ruby on your diploma so I guess you carry around your award letter. Kind of like one carrying around their Y and S acceptances and the full rides they turned down (I keep mine on me at all times). The Ruby is somewhat arbitrary and I don't think many employer's trust the pre-law school designation made by an adcom to be a sure fire prediction. Maybe someday named law school schollys will be like Rhodes but I doubt it. It's a Rhodes because of where you are going not where you came from.

Within the 1700 at Harvard are likely 600-700 that have Ruby stats or better. No way to know for sure because to the best of my knowledge they don't publish Ruby stats. If Harvard ran an honors JD program like a lot of flagship states do, those stats would blow away the classes at YS and the rest. Just a matter of math. That the stats of a class of 570 essentially equal the stats of classes of 200 at YS, then the top 1/3 are off the charts. Instead Harvard breaks up into sections that mimic the whole. A very good system.

Anyway if all else fails take the advice of the Mamas and the Papas...Go where you wanna go...


How is virtually the same employment prospects with 150k+ less in debt not a better outcome than a generic Harvard kid?

User avatar
UVA2B

Gold
Posts: 3421
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Ruby from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby UVA2B » Sat May 06, 2017 1:57 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:I'm going to be blunt: Anyone who goes to HLS at sticker over a Ruby at Chicago has less sense than a bag of hammers.

(1) There is literally no job of any kind in the legal field that you're more likely to get as an HLS student than someone going to UC on a Ruby. If you're hung up on prestige, being one of a handful of Ruby students is more prestigious than being one of Harvard's 1,700 JD students. The Ruby on average will produce better job outcomes than a generic HLS degree, especially for unicorn jobs like impact PI litigation. For your purposes, Harvard is a WORSE CHOICE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AN EXTRA $250K.

(2) The other reasons you're giving for preferring HLS in this situation are flatly absurd. You're going to pick HLS because it has a less competitive atmosphere than UC? Because it's less academic and more practically oriented? Because the weather is better? Those would all be really terrible reasons even if they were based on actual differences between the two schools, but those differences are almost completely imaginary. Harvard isn't any less competitive or more practical (LOL, seriously?) than Chicago. As for weather, leaving aside that this would under any circumstances be a bizarre basis for deciding to incur an extra quarter million in costs over 27 months of residency, you're talking as if you're considering the difference between living in Yellow Knife and San Diego, as opposed to the difference between a city that has an average high of 35 in January and another where the average is four degrees lower.

(3) Your belief that you actually know right now exactly what you'll want to be doing five years from now -- let alone in ten or twenty -- may turn out to be quite mistaken. And you talk about debt as if the only downside to it are little things like seriously limiting who you can marry or when or if you can have children.

You probably have a 7.4 GPA and a 191 LSAT and an Olympic medal in the biathlon, but in talking about this decision you sound like you're about 14.


Yes you should take the Ruby.

That a Ruby recipient will produce a better outcome than a "generic" Harvard is baloney. It doesn't say Ruby on your diploma so I guess you carry around your award letter. Kind of like one carrying around their Y and S acceptances and the full rides they turned down (I keep mine on me at all times). The Ruby is somewhat arbitrary and I don't think many employer's trust the pre-law school designation made by an adcom to be a sure fire prediction. Maybe someday named law school schollys will be like Rhodes but I doubt it. It's a Rhodes because of where you are going not where you came from.

Within the 1700 at Harvard are likely 600-700 that have Ruby stats or better. No way to know for sure because to the best of my knowledge they don't publish Ruby stats. If Harvard ran an honors JD program like a lot of flagship states do, those stats would blow away the classes at YS and the rest. Just a matter of math. That the stats of a class of 570 essentially equal the stats of classes of 200 at YS, then the top 1/3 are off the charts. Instead Harvard breaks up into sections that mimic the whole. A very good system.

Anyway if all else fails take the advice of the Mamas and the Papas...Go where you wanna go...


How is virtually the same employment prospects with 150k+ less in debt not a better outcome than a generic Harvard kid?


dabigchina wrote:http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/inside-minds-rubenstein-scholars-featuring-class-2017

Here are some Ruby recipients. Check out what they are doing, OP.

Also, just for my own gratification, does the Rubenstein come with a COL stipend as well?


Look at these outcomes. They are both financially better for someone with a Ruby and qualitatively similar to even great outcomes out of Harvard.

User avatar
QuentonCassidy

Silver
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:58 pm

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby QuentonCassidy » Sat May 06, 2017 1:59 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:I'm going to be blunt: Anyone who goes to HLS at sticker over a Ruby at Chicago has less sense than a bag of hammers.

(1) There is literally no job of any kind in the legal field that you're more likely to get as an HLS student than someone going to UC on a Ruby. If you're hung up on prestige, being one of a handful of Ruby students is more prestigious than being one of Harvard's 1,700 JD students. The Ruby on average will produce better job outcomes than a generic HLS degree, especially for unicorn jobs like impact PI litigation. For your purposes, Harvard is a WORSE CHOICE WITHOUT REGARD TO THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AN EXTRA $250K.

(2) The other reasons you're giving for preferring HLS in this situation are flatly absurd. You're going to pick HLS because it has a less competitive atmosphere than UC? Because it's less academic and more practically oriented? Because the weather is better? Those would all be really terrible reasons even if they were based on actual differences between the two schools, but those differences are almost completely imaginary. Harvard isn't any less competitive or more practical (LOL, seriously?) than Chicago. As for weather, leaving aside that this would under any circumstances be a bizarre basis for deciding to incur an extra quarter million in costs over 27 months of residency, you're talking as if you're considering the difference between living in Yellow Knife and San Diego, as opposed to the difference between a city that has an average high of 35 in January and another where the average is four degrees lower.

(3) Your belief that you actually know right now exactly what you'll want to be doing five years from now -- let alone in ten or twenty -- may turn out to be quite mistaken. And you talk about debt as if the only downside to it are little things like seriously limiting who you can marry or when or if you can have children.

You probably have a 7.4 GPA and a 191 LSAT and an Olympic medal in the biathlon, but in talking about this decision you sound like you're about 14.


Yes you should take the Ruby.

That a Ruby recipient will produce a better outcome than a "generic" Harvard is baloney. It doesn't say Ruby on your diploma so I guess you carry around your award letter. Kind of like one carrying around their Y and S acceptances and the full rides they turned down (I keep mine on me at all times). The Ruby is somewhat arbitrary and I don't think many employer's trust the pre-law school designation made by an adcom to be a sure fire prediction. Maybe someday named law school schollys will be like Rhodes but I doubt it. It's a Rhodes because of where you are going not where you came from.

Within the 1700 at Harvard are likely 600-700 that have Ruby stats or better. No way to know for sure because to the best of my knowledge they don't publish Ruby stats. If Harvard ran an honors JD program like a lot of flagship states do, those stats would blow away the classes at YS and the rest. Just a matter of math. That the stats of a class of 570 essentially equal the stats of classes of 200 at YS, then the top 1/3 are off the charts. Instead Harvard breaks up into sections that mimic the whole. A very good system.

Anyway if all else fails take the advice of the Mamas and the Papas...Go where you wanna go...


How is virtually the same employment prospects with 150k+ less in debt not a better outcome than a generic Harvard kid?

Shadowfax was responding to the previous poster's assertion that the Ruby was the better option even without taking money into consideration

dabigchina

Silver
Posts: 1422
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:22 am

Re: Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago?

Postby dabigchina » Sat May 06, 2017 2:33 pm

QuentonCassidy wrote:Shadowfax was responding to the previous poster's assertion that the Ruby was the better option even without taking money into consideration

Even that is somewhat doubtful. Harvard doesn't have the >50% Fed Clerkship rate that 2017's Rubenstein Scholars had.



Return to “Choosing a Law School?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests