Fully from left field... HLS vs Chicago? Forum

[QuentonCassidy]

Need-based aid creates its own set of perverse incentives. One kid whose parents save for the first 22 years of the kid's life will not be able to claim need-based aid, while another kid whose parents spent during that time can. One kid whose parents freely choose to take lower-paying jobs can claim need-based aid, while another kid whose parents don't can't.

It's better just to have one affordable price for all.

Just lol at the idea that someone's parents are going to make savings/employment decisions based on the possibility that sometime down the road one of their kids will get into HYS before they are 26 years old and be able to get more need-based aid.

[HonestlyThough]

Not original OP here, but the OP who re-sparked this conversation after getting admitted and offered the Ruby last week.

I did just return from Chicago. It's a freezing cold city, but also a beautiful and interesting one. And it's way cleaner than New York and SF. (New York smells so horrible). The University of Chicago's law school is really ugly, as a side note. And tiny. And a bit low on amentities.

There's pretty solid support for Ruby's, sorta to the point that makes me feel uncomfortable about how they're treated vs. the rest of UChi. If you look at clerkships, Rubies account for about 16 of the 36 in the most recent graduating class. 75% of Ruby's clerk compared to like 12% of the remainder of the class. I went to a giant public undergrad, so maybe that's why I find the hand-holding and favoritism a bit strange.

The class they had me sit in on had a worse professor than the ones I saw at Berkeley, NYU, and Harvard. But, on the flip side, students do seem to have ready access to their professors and will stop to chat with them in the hall.

Re: outcomes - looking at overall outcomes for the school doesn't make sense. My ability to succeed is not correlated to the average outcome of a Chicago or Harvard student. It's far more up to me and how hard I work to get top grades or how much effort I put into cultivating relationships with professors and taking advantage of opportunities. Both schools have the ability to help me make connections with judges and employers, and both schools are well-respected enough to serve me well. Once I'm there, my stats no longer matter and it's up to me to make the most or least of my time.

To answer the question, I like Harvard far more after visiting but have still not collected and looked over enough information to finalize my choice.

Regarding the money, none of you seem to evaluate debt in the way I do.
The Ruby is not money in my pocket. I will be low enough income after Harvard that, over the 10 years after graduation, Harvard would very likely be paying at least the value of my Ruby (likely more) on my behalf to pay off my loans. At UChi, I'd still leave with about $50K in debt. There's a very real possibility that I would not be in LRAP qualifying employment (by Chi's rules), so I'd be paying that $50K back myself on a salary low enough to make a 10 year repayment plan a bit difficult financially. If I couldn't afford the 10 year plan, I'd be in the shit land of negative amortization and would deal with the tax penalty at IBR forgiveness. My $50K in debt would balloon larger, and I'd be on the hook to pay it all off. (Or a good chunk of it, depending on how much time, if any, I was in LRAP-qualifying employment). Even if you qualify under Chi's LRAP, they only bay IBR payments, so if you want to avoid negative amortization, you're gonna have to fork over more out of pocket.

Haha this is dumb.

I know but we can't fight the Harvard glow that OP wants to bask in. Not even with the best law school outcome.

y'all are ridiculous. I made some notes on strengths of both schools and the ways in which they are similar. I'll be okay either way. Just working on making my own best choice. I also don't think there's anything "dumb" about my evaluation. I've looked over the LRAP programs in great detail and considered the position both will leave me in given the various paths I might take post grad. Sometimes one school leaves me better off debt-wise, sometimes it's the other.

[HonestlyThough]

You want to go to Harvard. You don't understand debt that you have to be employed and repay LIPP or not. LIPP isn't a magic wand to make your debt and the pressure of carrying it disappear.

It's great you went to Chicago and now you have a list of reasons why you shouldn't go. I find most of them easily dismissed compared to the advantages and prestige of the Ruby, but then I (and most of the posters here) seem to understand money and debt in a different way than you do.

At least you visited at the cost of $1000 which I respect. I don't agree with your choice and I honestly believe there will be times in the future when you regret it.

Still you gave it a shot.

of course it isn't a magic wand. But I'd also walk out of Chicago with $50K in debt which will also require management and restrict my career options. $50K is a long way from $0 for someone going into PI, and it's naive to treat it like it's nothing.

[Dcc617]

I'm laughing at the mental gymnastics you're pulling out. Look, is it a ruinous decision? Probably not. At least, as long as you don't decide you hate your job or have to turn down a perfect one that is too much for LIPP or something. Is it a wise decision? Fuck no. Just about anything you can do from Harvard you can do from Chicago. It's beyond me why you would strap yourself to LIPP for 10 years when you have virtually the same opportunities for free.

So enjoy your decisions. They are yours to make. Good luck. However, I personally think you are making a financially irresponsible decision based on some bullshit conception of Harvard.

[Npret]

How much debt from Harvard then? I know they require a minimum loan every year which would put you around at least $150,000. Or have I misunderstood that?

[Rigo]

How much debt from Harvard then? I know they require a minimum loan every year which would put you around at least $150,000. Or have I misunderstood that?

You understand that correctly. Max need-aid still leaves you ~$150k in the hole.

[Anon.y.mousse.]

How much debt from Harvard then? I know they require a minimum loan every year which would put you around at least $150,000. Or have I misunderstood that?

You understand that correctly. Max need-aid still leaves you ~$150k in the hole.

I think 2nd OP said they'd have full COA in loans unless I misunderstood.

[Anon.y.mousse.]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

[Npret]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

[Dcc617]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

[Npret]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

Yes. They don't believe us.

[HonestlyThough]

I would have likely close to $300,000 in debt at Harvard. I am 100% sure that I will be working in LIPP eligible jobs.
That means that, salary dependent, Harvard will be paying the vast majority of my loans for me. The jobs I want do not pay well, so my portion of my monthly loan payment will be small, somewhere in the hundreds of dollars (depending on salary). Harvard's bill will be the majority of that $300,000+.
When I run it through the calculator, I get an estimate of my share varying between 20K and 100K over ten years (depending what salary levels I use) with Harvard's share running upwards of $400k
My loans will be paid off after 10 years no matter what because Harvard forces you into a 10 year plan.

At Chicago, I'd leave with around $50K in debt.
Many of the careers I am interested in are NOT eligible under Chicago's LRAP.
I'd have to either put myself on a 10 year payment plan and figure out how to afford paying that $65,000 or so back on a very low salary
OR I'd do IBR and figure out how the hell to deal with the massive tax burden when I have a significant loan balance forgiven after 20 years. Negative amortization sucks.
Example:
If I stayed in LRAP for 10 years and was 100% sure when I graduated that I'd do that (SUPER unlikely), I'd have my loans forgiven by PSLF
If I started in LRAP but knew I wanted to leave (somewhat likely) I'd have to pay about $300 a month out of pocket give or take to keep my IBR loans on a 10 year payment schedule so that I didn't get murdered by debt increases over time/ I do not want to pay loans back for 20 years
If I wasn't in LRAP at all, I'd pay about $75K out of pocket to pay off my loans in 10 years (falling in the range expected at Harvard, and actually $15K higher than what I would pay at the same salary level after Harvard)
OR I'd pay well over $100K out of pocket on the IBR schedule then have to deal with the loan forgiveness.

my situation may be different than other people. I only care about my debt given my career goals. Not the norm. Not what other people pay.

P.S. y'all....I'm not a dude

[HonestlyThough]

also, I still haven't made my decision. I'm still emailing administrators and current students. Still making sure I have the fullest picture of what I get at both schools. Still running as many numbers as I can to make the most informed financial choice I can.

[Anon.y.mousse.]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

(2nd) OP, it really does just seem like you want to go to Harvard and you're looking for any reason to justify that choice. I know you think your rationalizations make sense, but it honestly sounds crazy as someone sitting on the sideline. I can't imagine doing the mental gymnastics necessary to get to the conclusion that 250k+ in debt and relying on a debt repayment plan is a smarter decision than 50k in debt from a peer school. Of course it's not 0 debt, but to act like they're comprable is silly. Particularly because you don't seem completely sure which path in your field of interest is the one you'll take (impact lit vs policy work vs something else I'm forgetting)- it'd be one thing kind of if you were sure you'd be working as a public defender or something idk but even then.

Also you don't get brownie points for breaking into these incredibly competitive fields by doing it from a harder position (ie standing out and rising to the top of a 600+ class at H rather than benefitting from the personalized attention that a Ruby has from day 1). You are literally forfeiting the massive benefit of faculty willing to go to bat to get you those positions or put you in a position to be successful because it "feels weird" and banking on being able to stand out in some way at H. Obviously you're smart so it can happen, but your concern for potential classmates at Chicago seems really misguided - newsflash, they'll all turn out fine.

[HonestlyThough]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

(2nd) OP, it really does just seem like you want to go to Harvard and you're looking for any reason to justify that choice. I know you think your rationalizations make sense, but it honestly sounds crazy as someone sitting on the sideline. I can't imagine doing the mental gymnastics necessary to get to the conclusion that 250k+ in debt and relying on a debt repayment plan is a smarter decision than 50k in debt from a peer school. Of course it's not 0 debt, but to act like they're comprable is silly. Particularly because you don't seem completely sure which path in your field of interest is the one you'll take (impact lit vs policy work vs something else I'm forgetting)- it'd be one thing kind of if you were sure you'd be working as a public defender or something idk but even then.

Also you don't get brownie points for breaking into these incredibly competitive fields by doing it from a harder position (ie standing out and rising to the top of a 600+ class at H rather than benefitting from the personalized attention that a Ruby has from day 1). You are literally forfeiting the massive benefit of faculty willing to go to bat to get you those positions or put you in a position to be successful because it "feels weird" and banking on being able to stand out in some way at H. Obviously you're smart so it can happen, but your concern for potential classmates at Chicago seems really misguided - newsflash, they'll all turn out fine.

Of course I like Harvard more. That should be completely clear. But the fact that I haven't just made that choice testifies to the fact that I do take this seriously. I spent the money to go visit Chicago last minute and had meetings with the Fin Aid office, multiple current students, and the Ruby director. I continue to ask questions, do my research, and compare the debt outcomes. I understand that debt is a burden, and I understand that, should my plans change, $50K is much, much easier to escape than $300K. However, there's a risk analysis that needs to be done: I'm very, very, very unlikely to choose a career path that isn't under LIPP.

If my out of pocket debt costs at Harvard and Chicago will end up being ballpark equal over the 10 years after graduation on most of the likely paths I choose, isn't weighing the other reasons to choose one school vs. the other a valid consideration?

I've discussed this with many people, including several people I work with (who all hold JDs from T13 schools), and they understand my dilemma and why I'm really wrestling with this. I've discussed it with friends currently at various T3 schools, and the get it too.

None of you seem to be acknowledging the fact that my actual out of pocket costs will likely end up being quite similar. ... with in the rank of a few tens of thousands of dollars either way

edit to add: I don't think I get extra brownie points. I'm just more comfortable in the environment of NOT being a special snowflake.

[Rigo]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

I was just confirming that Harvard's max need based aid still leaves you $150k in the hole. Wasn't commenting on OP 2.0's personal debt situation.

[Npret]

What happens if you lose your job? What happens if you need to stay home for some reason? What happens if you can't find a qualifying job that you want? I know Harvards definition is broad but maybe you will have time of extended unemployment?

You are relying on LIPP but what if that changes? What if you change your mind? What if you marry someone who's income pushes you out of LIPP?

You are just digging yourself a large and completely unnecessary hole.

[Lavitz]

None of you seem to be acknowledging the fact that my actual out of pocket costs will likely end up being quite similar. ... with in the rank of a few tens of thousands of dollars either way

Pretty sure everyone's just skeptical of the likelihood. I think we've done as much as we can to explain why that might end up not being the case.

But it sounds like you know what the situation is and what you have to do to get rid of the debt: get and stay in a low-paying job, and don't get married for 10 years. So if you're still willing to do that in order to go to Harvard, then go ahead. One more Ruby will go to someone who could use the money.

[shadowfax]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

(2nd) OP, it really does just seem like you want to go to Harvard and you're looking for any reason to justify that choice. I know you think your rationalizations make sense, but it honestly sounds crazy as someone sitting on the sideline. I can't imagine doing the mental gymnastics necessary to get to the conclusion that 250k+ in debt and relying on a debt repayment plan is a smarter decision than 50k in debt from a peer school. Of course it's not 0 debt, but to act like they're comprable is silly. Particularly because you don't seem completely sure which path in your field of interest is the one you'll take (impact lit vs policy work vs something else I'm forgetting)- it'd be one thing kind of if you were sure you'd be working as a public defender or something idk but even then.

Also you don't get brownie points for breaking into these incredibly competitive fields by doing it from a harder position (ie standing out and rising to the top of a 600+ class at H rather than benefitting from the personalized attention that a Ruby has from day 1). You are literally forfeiting the massive benefit of faculty willing to go to bat to get you those positions or put you in a position to be successful because it "feels weird" and banking on being able to stand out in some way at H. Obviously you're smart so it can happen, but your concern for potential classmates at Chicago seems really misguided - newsflash, they'll all turn out fine.

Of course I like Harvard more. That should be completely clear. But the fact that I haven't just made that choice testifies to the fact that I do take this seriously. I spent the money to go visit Chicago last minute and had meetings with the Fin Aid office, multiple current students, and the Ruby director. I continue to ask questions, do my research, and compare the debt outcomes. I understand that debt is a burden, and I understand that, should my plans change, $50K is much, much easier to escape than $300K. However, there's a risk analysis that needs to be done: I'm very, very, very unlikely to choose a career path that isn't under LIPP.

If my out of pocket debt costs at Harvard and Chicago will end up being ballpark equal over the 10 years after graduation on most of the likely paths I choose, isn't weighing the other reasons to choose one school vs. the other a valid consideration?

I've discussed this with many people, including several people I work with (who all hold JDs from T13 schools), and they understand my dilemma and why I'm really wrestling with this. I've discussed it with friends currently at various T3 schools, and the get it too.

None of you seem to be acknowledging the fact that my actual out of pocket costs will likely end up being quite similar. ... with in the rank of a few tens of thousands of dollars either way

edit to add: I don't think I get extra brownie points. I'm just more comfortable in the environment of NOT being a special snowflake.

Take the Ruby. I didn't and I am very pleased with my outcome. But if I could turn back time the fact I didn't understand was the way the system is tilted in favor of Ruby recipients. It flies in the face of everything I thought I knew about law school. That a small committee of ad-coms could predict with such certainty how a group would do in law school and after based on their performance in the first 3 years of undergrad and their score on the LSAT.

Take the Ruby. For anyone else thinking about Chicago...think twice. Not many plum career slots available for non-Rubies.

[HonestlyThough]

None of you seem to be acknowledging the fact that my actual out of pocket costs will likely end up being quite similar. ... with in the rank of a few tens of thousands of dollars either way

Pretty sure everyone's just skeptical of the likelihood. I think we've done as much as we can to explain why that might end up not being the case.

But it sounds like you know what the situation is and what you have to do to get rid of the debt: get and stay in a low-paying job, and don't get married for 10 years. So if you're still willing to do that in order to go to Harvard, then go ahead. One more Ruby will go to someone who could use the money.

why might it not end up being the case? Actually, no one has given an explanation as to why it would be reasonably NOT the case, short of me deciding I hate everything I've ever wanted to do and choose instead to open up a sock store after I graduate law school.

I would not need to get and stay in a low paying job. LIPP provides coverage way up (obviously my share of payment would just increase). I'm not very money motivated, so as long as it's livable (which it would be), I don't care a ton about losing some more out of my take home.

I could still marry anyone I want, so long as they make close to what I do, less than what I do, or WAYYYYYY more than what I do!

[HonestlyThough]

I'd be LIPP bound at Harvard, probably with full debt

^^ unless OPs fin aid at H has changed

Thanks. So I don't understand complaining about at least a hundred thousand dollars less debt (plus more resources) from Chicago.

Dude wants to go to Harvard. There is no reasoning with him about it. People get this way.

(2nd) OP, it really does just seem like you want to go to Harvard and you're looking for any reason to justify that choice. I know you think your rationalizations make sense, but it honestly sounds crazy as someone sitting on the sideline. I can't imagine doing the mental gymnastics necessary to get to the conclusion that 250k+ in debt and relying on a debt repayment plan is a smarter decision than 50k in debt from a peer school. Of course it's not 0 debt, but to act like they're comprable is silly. Particularly because you don't seem completely sure which path in your field of interest is the one you'll take (impact lit vs policy work vs something else I'm forgetting)- it'd be one thing kind of if you were sure you'd be working as a public defender or something idk but even then.

Also you don't get brownie points for breaking into these incredibly competitive fields by doing it from a harder position (ie standing out and rising to the top of a 600+ class at H rather than benefitting from the personalized attention that a Ruby has from day 1). You are literally forfeiting the massive benefit of faculty willing to go to bat to get you those positions or put you in a position to be successful because it "feels weird" and banking on being able to stand out in some way at H. Obviously you're smart so it can happen, but your concern for potential classmates at Chicago seems really misguided - newsflash, they'll all turn out fine.

Of course I like Harvard more. That should be completely clear. But the fact that I haven't just made that choice testifies to the fact that I do take this seriously. I spent the money to go visit Chicago last minute and had meetings with the Fin Aid office, multiple current students, and the Ruby director. I continue to ask questions, do my research, and compare the debt outcomes. I understand that debt is a burden, and I understand that, should my plans change, $50K is much, much easier to escape than $300K. However, there's a risk analysis that needs to be done: I'm very, very, very unlikely to choose a career path that isn't under LIPP.

If my out of pocket debt costs at Harvard and Chicago will end up being ballpark equal over the 10 years after graduation on most of the likely paths I choose, isn't weighing the other reasons to choose one school vs. the other a valid consideration?

I've discussed this with many people, including several people I work with (who all hold JDs from T13 schools), and they understand my dilemma and why I'm really wrestling with this. I've discussed it with friends currently at various T3 schools, and the get it too.

None of you seem to be acknowledging the fact that my actual out of pocket costs will likely end up being quite similar. ... with in the rank of a few tens of thousands of dollars either way

edit to add: I don't think I get extra brownie points. I'm just more comfortable in the environment of NOT being a special snowflake.

Take the Ruby. I didn't and I am very pleased with my outcome. But if I could turn back time the fact I didn't understand was the way the system is tilted in favor of Ruby recipients. It flies in the face of everything I thought I knew about law school. That a small committee of ad-coms could predict with such certainty how a group would do in law school and after based on their performance in the first 3 years of undergrad and their score on the LSAT.

Take the Ruby. For anyone else thinking about Chicago...think twice. Not many plum career slots available for non-Rubies.

I think this is an accurate assessment and one I don't deny.

[WheninLaw]

Hot damn this thread hurt my head. Reminds me of one of those intervention episodes where the user does not go to rehab. Then dies.

[arklaw13]

I wonder if HLS would put OP#2 in touch with some c/o 2015 grads with full debt living on LIPP for the past couple of years to see what they would say...

[shadowfax]

Hell who could have known that Rubies were like their namesake slippers in the Wizard of Oz. Click them 3 times and you can go anywhere you want. I should have taken it. If I only had the brain...the heart...the courage.

[Rigo]

Hell who could have known that Rubies were like their namesake slippers in the Wizard of Oz. Click them 3 times and you can go anywhere you want. I should have taken it. If I only had the brain...the heart...the courage.

I enjoyed this.