CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

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lobsterwitch
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CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby lobsterwitch » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:24 pm

Hi everyone,

With less than a week left until I have to decide, I still can't seem to narrow my choices down at all. I'm not sure exactly what I want to do (possibly international law), but I'm pretty confident that I'll work at a good firm for a few years and then transition to public interest/work in-house somewhere.

It seems like employment outcomes are largely the same, I love all of their locations almost equally, and all three have great opportunities, so I was wondering about the ability for a student to access those opportunities, especially since I'm not exactly expecting to be at the top of the class. Specifically, I was wondering if anyone had any insight into:

1. Their respective grading/ranking policies?
2. How accessible/common is it for students to be able to join a journal/Law Review?
3. How accessible/common is it for students to be able to participate in clinics/externships?
4. Are there are opportunities that one school has that the others don't?

Please help! I really appreciate it!

grades??
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:29 pm

No of this remotely matters as much as COA of each. Getting on journal is hard, thats the point. Getting clinics can be hard, but that shouldn't be a decision point.

What matters is your employment goals and cost.

lobsterwitch
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby lobsterwitch » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:42 pm

grades?? wrote:No of this remotely matters as much as COA of each. Getting on journal is hard, thats the point. Getting clinics can be hard, but that shouldn't be a decision point.

What matters is your employment goals and cost.


It's about the same for each, and even though I'm interested in international law I'm not 100% certain so I wouldn't feel totally comfortable choosing based on an unstable employment goal. I was thinking that the ability to get those experiences and take advantage of those opportunities would be the deciding factor, since all other factors seem mostly equal as far as I can tell.

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UVA2B
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:18 pm

What are your COA at each school? Whichever is cheapest is the right answer, but seeing the actual figures can be informative for those trying to help you decide.

What do you mean by international law? If by international law you mean international corporate work, then go to whichever is cheapest. If you mean being an academic that writes about international law and various topics within that academic field, none of them. If you mean international human rights work, whichever is cheapest with the understanding you are substantially more likely to not be doing that work when you graduate.

As academic institutions, these three are almost entirely fungible. They're going to entirely put you into similar types of jobs doing similar types of work getting paid similar pay.

So, what are your COA at each school? Until you answer this question, or at least signal which school is the cheapest option, no one can give you an at all helpful answer.

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rpupkin
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:23 pm


lobsterwitch
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby lobsterwitch » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:42 pm

Thank you for your responses!

The COAs are all about the same, but Penn is the cheapest (272k) followed by NYU (276k) and then CLS (282k), which is why I feel like the figures are so close that I should determine which school has the greatest opportunities/ability for a student to access those opportunities. Plus, without having a clear idea of what I'd like to do (besides what I said about thinking about international law, going to a big firm for a couple of years, and then transitioning to something more public interest or even in-house), I don't have much to go off of (even the school's respective locations seem about equal to me).

In short, without considering money, school location, or even definitive career goals, which school offers the greatest opportunities and accessibility to those opportunities?

I realize it's difficult to respond without having these determinative factors — this is exactly why it's difficult to make this choice.

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Nebby
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Nebby » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:47 pm

They're all the same with what you want to do

Npret
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:51 pm

lobsterwitch wrote:Thank you for your responses!

The COAs are all about the same, but Penn is the cheapest (272k) followed by NYU (276k) and then CLS (282k), which is why I feel like the figures are so close that I should determine which school has the greatest opportunities/ability for a student to access those opportunities. Plus, without having a clear idea of what I'd like to do (besides what I said about thinking about international law, going to a big firm for a couple of years, and then transitioning to something more public interest or even in-house), I don't have much to go off of (even the school's respective locations seem about equal to me).

In short, without considering money, school location, or even definitive career goals, which school offers the greatest opportunities and accessibility to those opportunities?

I realize it's difficult to respond without having these determinative factors — this is exactly why it's difficult to make this choice.

Are those figures your debt from these schools?
At any rate just visit and go to the school you like the best. Your goals are vague and you can get NYC biglaw from any of these schools.

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Dcc617
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:09 pm

lobsterwitch wrote:Thank you for your responses!

The COAs are all about the same, but Penn is the cheapest (272k) followed by NYU (276k) and then CLS (282k), which is why I feel like the figures are so close that I should determine which school has the greatest opportunities/ability for a student to access those opportunities. Plus, without having a clear idea of what I'd like to do (besides what I said about thinking about international law, going to a big firm for a couple of years, and then transitioning to something more public interest or even in-house), I don't have much to go off of (even the school's respective locations seem about equal to me).

In short, without considering money, school location, or even definitive career goals, which school offers the greatest opportunities and accessibility to those opportunities?

I realize it's difficult to respond without having these determinative factors — this is exactly why it's difficult to make this choice.


OP you definitely shouldn't take out $270K+ in debt, period. Doubly so when you don't know anything about what you want to do.

Take a couple years off, work somewhere you may like living, save some money, get some life experience, and then consider law school. That's a huge, life changing amount of debt.

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presidentspivey
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby presidentspivey » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:10 pm

Opportunities and employment outcomes are going to be mostly the same at all these schools. I'd eliminate CLS and decide whether you like NYC or Philly better. If you're fond of NYC it's probably worth an extra 4K to be there for three years. That's really the only distinguishing factor that comes to mind for someone with vague goals.

Npret
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:35 pm

presidentspivey wrote:Opportunities and employment outcomes are going to be mostly the same at all these schools. I'd eliminate CLS and decide whether you like NYC or Philly better. If you're fond of NYC it's probably worth an extra 4K to be there for three years. That's really the only distinguishing factor that comes to mind for someone with vague goals.

Eliminating CLS for $10,000 is silly. Just go where you like.

Also, please look at your total debt at graduation before you go to any of these schools with such vague considerations of your career. IMHO You're likely to be run over by the more sophisticated students. Defer a year or so and get a job.

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presidentspivey
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby presidentspivey » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:40 pm

Npret wrote:
presidentspivey wrote:Opportunities and employment outcomes are going to be mostly the same at all these schools. I'd eliminate CLS and decide whether you like NYC or Philly better. If you're fond of NYC it's probably worth an extra 4K to be there for three years. That's really the only distinguishing factor that comes to mind for someone with vague goals.

Eliminating CLS for $10,000 is silly. Just go where you like.

Also, please look at your total debt at graduation before you go to any of these schools with such vague considerations of your career. IMHO You're likely to be run over by the more sophisticated students. Defer a year or so and get a job.

What would be the justification for paying an extra 8K for Columbia>NYU? Also, while there are lots of good reasons to take a year off (such as vague career goals), getting "run over" by more sophisticated students is a silly one.

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rpupkin
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:44 pm

Npret wrote:
presidentspivey wrote:Opportunities and employment outcomes are going to be mostly the same at all these schools. I'd eliminate CLS and decide whether you like NYC or Philly better. If you're fond of NYC it's probably worth an extra 4K to be there for three years. That's really the only distinguishing factor that comes to mind for someone with vague goals.

Eliminating CLS for $10,000 is silly. Just go where you like.

Indeed. I think CLS is worth $10K more than Penn. But I don't think that any of these schools are worth the debt that OP is looking at taking on.

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Dcc617
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:45 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Npret wrote:
presidentspivey wrote:Opportunities and employment outcomes are going to be mostly the same at all these schools. I'd eliminate CLS and decide whether you like NYC or Philly better. If you're fond of NYC it's probably worth an extra 4K to be there for three years. That's really the only distinguishing factor that comes to mind for someone with vague goals.

Eliminating CLS for $10,000 is silly. Just go where you like.

Indeed. I think CLS is worth $10K more than Penn. But I don't think that any of these schools are worth the debt that OP is looking at taking on.


Yeah, it seems sort of silly to quibble over 10K when OP's looking at over a quarter million dollars of debt.

Malarkey
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Malarkey » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:57 pm

Are these all at sticker?

0L disclaimer, but in my opinion, these options are all way too expensive. Did you get any scholarships at lower t-13 schools?

lobsterwitch
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby lobsterwitch » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:10 am

To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal). I'm waiting back to hear from Penn and NYU about possibly getting more money; CLS rejected my re-negotiation efforts.

It's so helpful to hear that the schools are basically equal and to go with money/feel. At least with intangible vibes, I think I can knock out CLS.

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presidentspivey
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby presidentspivey » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:14 am

Yeah, putting aside the Columbia for 10K judgment, I agree with the above posters in that these options are all too expensive.

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rpupkin
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:19 am

lobsterwitch wrote:To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal). I'm waiting back to hear from Penn and NYU about possibly getting more money; CLS rejected my re-negotiation efforts.

It's so helpful to hear that the schools are basically equal and to go with money/feel. At least with intangible vibes, I think I can knock out CLS.

Eh. Some firms will go slightly deeper into CLS's class, both in NYC and elsewhere. If I were focusing on big law, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend CLS over the other two. And if I were PI focused, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend NYU over the other two.

Also, if you have a 120K scholarship from each school, how is your total COA $272K - $282K for all three schools? Are you planning to pay $5K/month for rent or something?

curry1
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby curry1 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:23 am

rpupkin wrote:
lobsterwitch wrote:To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal). I'm waiting back to hear from Penn and NYU about possibly getting more money; CLS rejected my re-negotiation efforts.

It's so helpful to hear that the schools are basically equal and to go with money/feel. At least with intangible vibes, I think I can knock out CLS.

Eh. Some firms will go slightly deeper into CLS's class, both in NYC and elsewhere. If I were focusing on big law, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend CLS over the other two. And if I were PI focused, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend NYU over the other two.

Also, if you have a 120K scholarship from each school, how is your total COA $272K - $282K for all three schools? Are you planning to pay $5K/month for rent or something?


I think he might have understood COA to simply mean current yearly listed COA x 3 and didn't include scholarships for that reason.

Npret
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Npret » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:23 am

curry1 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
lobsterwitch wrote:To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal). I'm waiting back to hear from Penn and NYU about possibly getting more money; CLS rejected my re-negotiation efforts.

It's so helpful to hear that the schools are basically equal and to go with money/feel. At least with intangible vibes, I think I can knock out CLS.

Eh. Some firms will go slightly deeper into CLS's class, both in NYC and elsewhere. If I were focusing on big law, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend CLS over the other two. And if I were PI focused, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend NYU over the other two.

Also, if you have a 120K scholarship from each school, how is your total COA $272K - $282K for all three schools? Are you planning to pay $5K/month for rent or something?


I think he might have understood COA to simply mean current yearly listed COA x 3 and didn't include scholarships for that reason.


So he's telling us what he estimates the 3years would cost without including scholarships or increases in COA? They are so close that maybe figuring out actual debt at graduation will be about the same from each school.

I didn't mean to be rude but OP sounds a bit clueless but I forgot that most 0Ls sound the same.

I agree that Columbia is worth more for a slight edge at getting big law but if OP doesn't like the school, he can take one of his other great options.

cavalier1138
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:46 am

lobsterwitch wrote:To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal).


So what's your actual COA?

Malarkey
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Malarkey » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:07 am

rpupkin wrote:
lobsterwitch wrote:To clarify, yes, those are the total COAs, but I have equal scholarships of 120k from all (so it really is all equal). I'm waiting back to hear from Penn and NYU about possibly getting more money; CLS rejected my re-negotiation efforts.

It's so helpful to hear that the schools are basically equal and to go with money/feel. At least with intangible vibes, I think I can knock out CLS.

Eh. Some firms will go slightly deeper into CLS's class, both in NYC and elsewhere. If I were focusing on big law, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend CLS over the other two. And if I were PI focused, I'd pay a few thousand more to attend NYU over the other two.

Also, if you have a 120K scholarship from each school, how is your total COA $272K - $282K for all three schools? Are you planning to pay $5K/month for rent or something?


Like everyone else, I'm confused about your COAs, but a 120k scholarship to Columbia sounds like something I would happily take. Echoing rpupkin, some firms dip slightly lower into the pool there, so I'd probably choose Columbia here if the costs are roughly equal.

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Nebby
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:33 am

This thread is like pulling teeth

lobsterwitch
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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby lobsterwitch » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:41 am

Thanks for all these responses, but as I've been saying, I only posted this question to find out the schools' differences in opportunities like clinics/journals, since a) all the COA are almost exactly the same (120k scholarships from each, and all are basically the same price before scholarships), and b) I don't exactly know what I want to do (which seems pretty normal for 0Ls).

In any case, thanks for taking the time to try to help!

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Re: CLS vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:44 am

They are all identical in reference to your questions posed




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