zot1 wrote: ernie wrote: zot1 wrote: ernie wrote: Deserving Porcupine wrote:
screwtapeletters wrote:Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.
This may certainly be the case, for UCI I'd imagine it is a lot of people self-selecting into PI jobs which may make competition for Biglaw and firm jobs a bit more lax.
Irvine's 33.6% PI score is in large part attributable to the school's shockingly high 18.2% school-funded rate. Irvine having a high PI rate is a recent phenomenon, and correlates with a recent increase in school-funded positions.
Irvine's 15.5% biglaw placement is pretty grim. It has a respectable 12.7% clerkship rate, but that's in large part due to Chemerinsky making calls, and the word is out that he's looking to make a move.
Maybe you'll get biglaw, maybe not. You have the IP and PhD thing going for you. But attending either school is still a roll of the dice.
Sigh... here we go again.
UCI is collegial. That's the environment that has been fostered and the kind of students UCI attracts.
Yes, many students are gunning for PI and government over biglaw.
Yes, UCI funds certain positions, but there's more to that than meets the eye. To begin with certain places like OCDA give money to UCI to pay fellows until they get hired permanently. Additionally, most PI places do not hire students right out of graduation. So UCI provides a fellowship that helps the student prove themselves to the organization they're trying to get a job with.
Lots of law schools are "collegial." But it's a meaningless term in the context of this decision. Whatever culture Irvine has, it certainly isn't a culture where a third of the class willingly opts out of bl/fc to pursue PI, unless their culture has undergone a radical transformation from literally two years ago when their PI rate was only 14.3% (and it was 8.9% the year before
). This has nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the fact that Irvine grads aren't getting jobs, and the school is trying to keep the boat afloat by funding positions (the recent increase in the number of these positions, you'll note, correlates perfectly to the recent increase in PI placement).
And of course it's true that many PI orgs don't hire students straight out of law school. But don't you find it a little telling that schools with bona fide strong PI placement don't have to make this excuse? (e.g., Boalt has a 19% PI score and a 5% school-funded score; NYU has a 19% PI score and a 7% school-funded score)
Yes, UCI has people self selecting into those jobs. People who don't want to do PI and miss other boats end up in small/mid firms. They don't suddenly want to do PI because there is nothing else out there. PI orgs DO NOT hire people (even those funded with fellowships from the school) who do not demonstrate a commitment to PI or their cause.
And the community does foster a collegial environment. The stories are endless on this, you just don't know about them.
Berkeley and NYU have less students going to PI because they have more students gunning for Biglaw. But I'll admit I don't know everything there is to know about those schools because I didn't go there.
You may sit from the outside and make conclusions on numbers and that's fine. I speak from actual stuff that I know. I personally asked around about the school-funded positions and was convinced it made sense to have them. If I had been in PI, having the safety net of the school if I couldn't get Skadden or another fancy fellowship would have been nice. For example, we had three fellows to the Gideon's promise program where the law school paid for a one year felllowship and all three have now been hired full time as a result of the fellowship (http://www.gideonspromise.org/programs/lspp
Anyway, keep speculating, I'm not really here to stop you.
Sorry, your anecdotes and feelings don't trump actual facts and data
. I'm glad that you were "convinced" that your alma mater isn't a rapidly declining trap school, that the "stories are endless" about the school's "collegial environment" which is important to you for some reason, and that three whole Irvine students got the Gideon's Promise fellowship. But all that combined doesn't amount to much. Here is the actual data.
(1) Irvine students are finding it increasingly difficult to obtain jobs, as evidenced by a massive shift in outcomes over the past two years. Irvine now has a 33.6% PI score, whereas that number has been as low as 8.9% in recent years. The reason for this increase is the explosion in school-funded positions—whereas the school initially did not fund positions, the school-funded position rate is a shocking 18.2%. When added to the horrifying 14.5% unemployment rate, one thing is indisputable: each successive Irvine class is having a progressively harder time getting jobs, and the administration hasn't done enough to stem the bleeding.
(2) The school's clerkship rate is in large part due to one person (Chemerinsky) making calls. Chemerinsky is, as has been reported widely, looking to leave Irvine. I will not speculate as to whether he is looking to leave Irvine because of the school's recent decline.
(3) Collegiality is a joke. It means absolutely nothing in the job market. Irvine's culture is not one in which a third of the class willingly opts out of bl/fc to pursue PI, unless their culture has undergone a radical transformation from three years ago when the PI rate was 8.9%. Something has changed, and Irvine grads aren't getting jobs. I will not speculate about why the decline is occurring and will stick to the facts: Irvine job outcomes get worse each year, and the actual data
(as opposed to your pollyanna ancedotes) are not subject to reasonable dispute.
(4) In addition, you avoided my point about Boalt and NYU. My point is this: Of course it's true that many PI orgs don't hire students straight out of law school. But don't you find it a little telling that schools with bona fide strong PI placement don't have to make this excuse? (e.g., Boalt has a 19% PI score and a 5% school-funded score; NYU has a 19% PI score and a 7% school-funded score)
(5) No one said that Irvine has zero people self-selecting into PI. But the notion that people missing biglaw don't end up in PI fellowships as evidenced by PI orgs not hiring people without a demonstrated commitment to PI is laughable. If you bring your own funding and aren't a complete fuck-up, it is not terribly difficult to get a school-funded PI position, even if you resume does not evidence a commitment to the organization's cause. A short-staffed municipal law department is not going to turn down a year of free labor for its tort division because you don't wax poetic about the Hand Formula. What scares me about your comment is that it suggests that Irvine students can't even give their labor away.
Conclusion: Irvine is a classic trap school. We can argue about things that are actually in dispute: why Irvine is a trap school, whether it is better or worse than other trap schools, etc. But there is no dispute that Irvine grads, attracted to the school by its once excellent biglaw placement and low unemployment rates, are now being slaughtered in the job market.