BU vs UCI Forum

[Deserving Porcupine]

Hello TLS hive mind,

My short list for law school looks like it will come down to being basically between BU and UCI. At this point, I have about $75k from BU and about $85k from UCI. I think that COA will be comparable between the two, though UCI will probably end up being about $25k cheaper because they haven't really raised tuition, and there is the possibility of in state tuition 2l and 3l years. BU thinks they are clever in trying to skew my calculation with an unreasonably low COL ($18K-ish), but my actual costs will probably be closer to UCIs $28k COL no matter where I end up.
I was also accepted at UW, but their scholarship offer is a bit over half of what the other schools are giving me, so I've basically excluded that option. I'm financing this with loans.

I'm a non-traditional student with a family, so I won't really be able to split rent, nor will I be able to retake/reapply. My stats are 3.25/166, so I'm a splitter at any of the lower T-20s to 30s. I have a STEM grad degree, and plan on going into biotech patent law. Boston is obviously huge for this, but I've heard San Diego has a lot of IP going on, and though UCI doesn't place that strongly up north there is also the bay area. I really don't have ties to either Cali or Boston, and while I would be OK with either, my family would probably adapt better to socal.

I've also heard that BU can be fairly competitive, and this contrasts with UCIs more collegial reputation. I'm obviously far more attracted to the latter. I never was the hyper competitive type, and in my 'old' age even less so. I also really like the fact that UCI has such a highly ranked faculty, which I think will help me to enjoy my legal education to the greatest extent possible, regardless of whether or not said faculty actually are able to open more doors when it comes to the job search.

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning a bit towards UCI, but BU also has yet to give me a straightforward reply to my scholarship negotiations basically saying they'd consider it closer to the second deposit date.

Let me know if there are any other relevant details I haven't given.

I welcome your opinions, esteemed, considered, or otherwise...

[cavalier1138]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

[Deserving Porcupine]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

Using the spreadsheet stickied on this board, estimated debt at repayment is $209,301 for BU, and $169,419 for UCI, so a difference of almost $40k, seems I underestimated the difference. Note that this assumes $28k COL at either school, and assumes I qualify for in-state tuition at UCI for 2L and 3L.

[grades??]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

Using the spreadsheet stickied on this board, estimated debt at repayment is $209,301 for BU, and $169,419 for UCI, so a difference of almost $40k, seems I underestimated the difference. Note that this assumes $28k COL at either school, and assumes I qualify for in-state tuition at UCI for 2L and 3L.

Woof. Either are awful choices.

[usn26]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

Using the spreadsheet stickied on this board, estimated debt at repayment is $209,301 for BU, and $169,419 for UCI, so a difference of almost $40k, seems I underestimated the difference. Note that this assumes $28k COL at either school, and assumes I qualify for in-state tuition at UCI for 2L and 3L.

Woof. Either are awful choices.

Yeah.

Why can't you retake/reapply, exactly? What does your SO do? What are you doing now? Any preexisting student loan debt? Any other options?

Run the numbers for Wisconsin, but this looks like a lesser of many evils situation.

[Deserving Porcupine]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

Using the spreadsheet stickied on this board, estimated debt at repayment is $209,301 for BU, and $169,419 for UCI, so a difference of almost $40k, seems I underestimated the difference. Note that this assumes $28k COL at either school, and assumes I qualify for in-state tuition at UCI for 2L and 3L.

Woof. Either are awful choices.

This is just the type of thoughtful, constructive response I was hoping for.
All joking aside, I don't think it's too reasonable to expect a full ride with my stats until you move well outside the T30. Just my COL will be nearly $90k, so it is what it is. I'm still waiting to hear from USC and UCLA, but don't hold out much hope of getting in with much money at all... My uGPA is really holding me back, I know.

[grades??]

What's your final estimated COA at each?

Using the spreadsheet stickied on this board, estimated debt at repayment is $209,301 for BU, and $169,419 for UCI, so a difference of almost $40k, seems I underestimated the difference. Note that this assumes $28k COL at either school, and assumes I qualify for in-state tuition at UCI for 2L and 3L.

Woof. Either are awful choices.

This is just the type of thoughtful, constructive response I was hoping for.
All joking aside, I don't think it's too reasonable to expect a full ride with my stats until you move well outside the T30. Just my COL will be nearly $90k, so it is what it is. I'm still waiting to hear from USC and UCLA, but don't hold out much hope of getting in with much money at all... My uGPA is really holding me back, I know.

You have a stem grad degree. What are you doing now? This is too much debt to take on for the employment outcomes and then adding that you have a family, will be moving them either way, and you will have at best an uncertain job outcome at the end, either option sucks.

If you are making more than 60k right now, you will be putting yourself into 150k+ debt for a job that will pay that. Biglaw is unlikely from either and biglaw is starting to shift heavily away from patent work. That is going to smaller firms, and you will not make the big money. This is a poor plan.

[Deserving Porcupine]

My SO is unable to work, I have young kids and due to a somewhat unusual professional trajectory and the cyclical nature of academic hiring, any job I do get would likely involve teaching four or five classes a semester. If you have ever had to teach a class from scratch, you will know that there is an inordinate amount of preparation that goes into it, in addition to the actual lecture, grading, lab time, and office hours. There is no realistic way I'd be able to devote much time to LSAT prep assuming I did manage to get a job.

Basically, I'm pretty pessimistic about being able to support my family AND raise my LSAT score. If it were one or the other, it would be no problem, but both is a huge gamble that I'm not sure is worth betting a year of my time on.

[Deserving Porcupine]

Without getting into too much detail, I have been earning far, far less than $60k for the past several years.

[grades??]

My SO is unable to work, I have young kids and due to a somewhat unusual professional trajectory and the cyclical nature of academic hiring, any job I do get would likely involve teaching four or five classes a semester. If you have ever had to teach a class from scratch, you will know that there is an inordinate amount of preparation that goes into it, in addition to the actual lecture, grading, lab time, and office hours. There is no realistic way I'd be able to devote much time to LSAT prep assuming I did manage to get a job.

Basically, I'm pretty pessimistic about being able to support my family AND raise my LSAT score. If it were one or the other, it would be no problem, but both is a huge gamble that I'm not sure is worth betting a year of my time on.

Wait wait wait. So you are a teacher and the sole-breadwinner?

If thats true, law school at either of these prices will destroy your financial future. How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

[screwtapeletters]

you really should retake & reapply. Just one or two more points will put you at a much better position. Yes, raising a family and studying for the LSAT is not an endeavor, but it will be worth it in the end. 200k at BU or 160k at UCI is not justifiable. The above poster is right about biglaw's shift away from IP, due to conflicts of interest with their other clients (see: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ractice_re). Ropes being the #1 firm in Boston, and shifting away from IP, you would not be in the best position at BU.

Why not BC though? I feel like your stats would have warranted more $ from BC. Hack, UIUC might have thrown you a full-ride, which I think is a better option than BU at 200k or UCI at 160k. If you are unwilling to retake, at least reapply in September and blanket schools with cheap COA in the top40ish and see what turns up. None of the regional schools will guarantee you with biglaw, but at least some will let you grade debt-free.

[screwtapeletters]

Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.

[Deserving Porcupine]

How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

Yeah, I've got to respectfully disagree with this. I manged to support my family on a grad student stipend of $25k in a major urban center. I'm always amazed at what people think is necessary to live comfortably.

[Deserving Porcupine]

Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.

This may certainly be the case, for UCI I'd imagine it is a lot of people self-selecting into PI jobs which may make competition for Biglaw and firm jobs a bit more lax.

[grades??]

How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

Yeah, I've got to respectfully disagree with this. I manged to support my family on a grad student stipend of $25k in a major urban center. I'm always amazed at what people think is necessary to live comfortably.

Yeah but you aren't in debt right now with a 2.5k monthly debt payment. That is a whole other thing you are completely ignoring. How are you going to live when you make 60k and have a debt payment of more than half your monthly salary?

[Deserving Porcupine]

How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

Yeah, I've got to respectfully disagree with this. I manged to support my family on a grad student stipend of $25k in a major urban center. I'm always amazed at what people think is necessary to live comfortably.

Yeah but you aren't in debt right now with a 2.5k monthly debt payment. That is a whole other thing you are completely ignoring. How are you going to live when you make 60k and have a debt payment of more than half your monthly salary?

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't IBR limit payments to 10% of discretionary income, with the balance forgiven after 20 years of payments? Using this calculator, I get payments that are about an order of magnitude lower than what you suggest...

https://studentloanhero.com/calculators ... alculator/

[screwtapeletters]

Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.

This may certainly be the case, for UCI I'd imagine it is a lot of people self-selecting into PI jobs which may make competition for Biglaw and firm jobs a bit more lax.

A lot of people self-select into PI jobs at a lot of regional schools. Competition for biglaw/fed clerkship is fierce anywhere u go outside of the top13. Granted, IP candidates had enjoyed grade immunity for many years, but at least based on market trend, that doesn't seem as likely compared to the past. Anecdotally, I know a few people who were in the top40ish schools at bottom 50% getting biglaw as ip, but they were bio/chem/engineering PhDs (or some with Masters), or worked at top engineering firms for many years before law school with engineering degrees. You certainly could be one of those people, and I would like to think you would be in a competitive position for biglaw, but you'd still be taking a lot of risk with that much loans from your current options. I really think you should retake & reapply in September and aim for a full-ride or close to a full-ride from schools that favor splitters - WashU, Emory, GW, UIUC, etc - and at least try to graduate with manageable debt.

[Deserving Porcupine]

Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.

This may certainly be the case, for UCI I'd imagine it is a lot of people self-selecting into PI jobs which may make competition for Biglaw and firm jobs a bit more lax.

A lot of people self-select into PI jobs at a lot of regional schools. Competition for biglaw/fed clerkship is fierce anywhere u go outside of the top13. Granted, IP candidates had enjoyed grade immunity for many years, but at least based on market trend, that doesn't seem as likely compared to the past. Anecdotally, I know a few people who were in the top40ish schools at bottom 50% getting biglaw as ip, but they were bio/chem/engineering PhDs (or some with Masters), or worked at top engineering firms for many years before law school with engineering degrees. You certainly could be one of those people, and I would like to think you would be in a competitive position for biglaw, but you'd still be taking a lot of risk with that much loans from your current options. I really think you should retake & reapply in September and aim for a full-ride or close to a full-ride from schools that favor splitters - WashU, Emory, GW, UIUC, etc - and at least try to graduate with manageable debt.

Thanks for this. It is a bit disheartening that "IP secure" is no longer a thing, but oh well. I'm still on the priority WL at Emory, but we will see what kind of $$ they throw at me. I do have a PhD FWIW, and while that doesn't seem to have helped me AT ALL in my admissions cycle, I hope it's not naive to assume that it might give me an edge in the job search.

[grades??]

How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

Yeah, I've got to respectfully disagree with this. I manged to support my family on a grad student stipend of $25k in a major urban center. I'm always amazed at what people think is necessary to live comfortably.

Yeah but you aren't in debt right now with a 2.5k monthly debt payment. That is a whole other thing you are completely ignoring. How are you going to live when you make 60k and have a debt payment of more than half your monthly salary?

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't IBR limit payments to 10% of discretionary income, with the balance forgiven after 20 years of payments? Using this calculator, I get payments that are about an order of magnitude lower than what you suggest...

https://studentloanhero.com/calculators ... alculator/

The inputs you put into it make no sense. But no, they wont be limited and your balance wont be forgiven unless you are using some PLSF or something. I am no expert on this, but others are. If you have 200k in loans, you will have a 2k a month minimum payment.

dude, you have a science PHD. Stop trying to go to law school thinking it will solve your issues. The private sector IP work isn't doing very hot right now and you will be going into huge debt for a likely not great employment outcome, lots of debt, and another 3 years of school and poverty level substance for your family.

[UVA2B]

Have you looked into becoming a patent agent or a scientific advisor at a law firm that uses those? Could be a good way to see the inner workings of IP law, while making more than you are now, and should give you some insiders advantage if you decide to pursue a JD in the future? That's just a ton of debt to take on for a non-assured outcome at either.

[usn26]

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't IBR limit payments to 10% of discretionary income, with the balance forgiven after 20 years of payments? Using this calculator, I get payments that are about an order of magnitude lower than what you suggest...

The inputs you put into it make no sense. But no, they wont be limited and your balance wont be forgiven unless you are using some PLSF or something. I am no expert on this, but others are. If you have 200k in loans, you will have a 2k a month minimum payment.

dude, you have a science PHD. Stop trying to go to law school thinking it will solve your issues. The private sector IP work isn't doing very hot right now and you will be going into huge debt for a likely not great employment outcome, lots of debt, and another 3 years of school and poverty level substance for your family.

I believe it's 25 years. That's a long time to be burdened by (probably growing) debt, for the government to change its mind, etc. But your payments would be capped (15% of discretionary income or something like that) and would, under current law as promised but not yet ever actually fulfilled, forgiven after 20-25 years (albeit perhaps with you paying income tax on the foriveness).

I can understand someone choosing to go down that path if circumstances demand it, but you should be absolutely sure that they do. And even if so, you want to minimize the risk and maximize the reward. Those debt figures are bad news on the former and those schools aren't great for the latter.

Have you looked into becoming a patent agent or a scientific advisor at a law firm that uses those? Could be a good way to see the inner workings of IP law, while making more than you are now, and should give you some insiders advantage if you decide to pursue a JD in the future? That's just a ton of debt to take on for a non-assured outcome at either.

^^ cosign

[ernie]

Also, I think "collegial environment" is a misnomer. Generally speaking, the higher the employment rate, the more collegial schools will be, 'cause u wont have to be in the top 1/3 to get a job.

This may certainly be the case, for UCI I'd imagine it is a lot of people self-selecting into PI jobs which may make competition for Biglaw and firm jobs a bit more lax.

Irvine's 33.6% PI score is in large part attributable to the school's shockingly high 18.2% school-funded rate. Irvine having a high PI rate is a recent phenomenon, and correlates with a recent increase in school-funded positions.

Irvine's 15.5% biglaw placement is pretty grim. It has a respectable 12.7% clerkship rate, but that's in large part due to Chemerinsky making calls, and the word is out that he's looking to make a move.

Maybe you'll get biglaw, maybe not. You have the IP and PhD thing going for you. But attending either school is still a roll of the dice.

[Npret]

How are you going to survive not only through law school, but afterwards when you are paying back 200k with a 60k salary? That is the decision on hand.

I don't think you should retake. I think the law school ship has sailed, sorry. You have a family and you are the only financial support? You SHOULD NOT attend law school. Full stop. Dont retake because you shouldn't go.

Yeah, I've got to respectfully disagree with this. I manged to support my family on a grad student stipend of $25k in a major urban center. I'm always amazed at what people think is necessary to live comfortably.

Yeah but you aren't in debt right now with a 2.5k monthly debt payment. That is a whole other thing you are completely ignoring. How are you going to live when you make 60k and have a debt payment of more than half your monthly salary?

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't IBR limit payments to 10% of discretionary income, with the balance forgiven after 20 years of payments? Using this calculator, I get payments that are about an order of magnitude lower than what you suggest...

https://studentloanhero.com/calculators ... alculator/

The inputs you put into it make no sense. But no, they wont be limited and your balance wont be forgiven unless you are using some PLSF or something. I am no expert on this, but others are. If you have 200k in loans, you will have a 2k a month minimum payment.

dude, you have a science PHD. Stop trying to go to law school thinking it will solve your issues. The private sector IP work isn't doing very hot right now and you will be going into huge debt for a likely not great employment outcome, lots of debt, and another 3 years of school and poverty level substance for your family.

You can limit your loan payments to 10 or 15% of your income under various programs like IBR and PAYE and REPAYE. After 20 or 25 years depending on the program the balance is forgiven and the loan forgiveness is taxable income. However, this is all subject to change.
I think the programs were designed to kick the student loan mess down the road for someone else to worry about solving.

[favabeansoup]

You can limit your loan payments to 10 or 15% of your income under various programs like IBR and PAYE and REPAYE. After 20 or 25 years depending on the program the balance is forgiven and the loan forgiveness is taxable income. However, this is all subject to change.
I think the programs were designed to kick the student loan mess down the road for someone else to worry about solving.

^^^

OP in case this doesn't make sense. This will mean that after 20- 25 years of payments you'll have a potential tax bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Hope you start saving the extra money for that now so you and your family don't get destroyed down the road. Consider it as paying for 2 full private college tuitions in the same year.

Assuming new legislation will come to save you from that bill is a big mistake.

[Npret]

You can limit your loan payments to 10 or 15% of your income under various programs like IBR and PAYE and REPAYE. After 20 or 25 years depending on the program the balance is forgiven and the loan forgiveness is taxable income. However, this is all subject to change.
I think the programs were designed to kick the student loan mess down the road for someone else to worry about solving.

^^^

OP in case this doesn't make sense. This will mean that after 20- 25 years of payments you'll have a potential tax bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Hope you start saving the extra money for that now so you and your family don't get destroyed down the road. Consider it as paying for 2 full private college tuitions in the same year.

Assuming new legislation will come to save you from that bill is a big mistake.

I'm not suggesting any of these three widely different schools are right for OP, spouse who can't work and kids . But the IRS does work out payment plans. I don't know and don't care to figure out what OPs tax bill might be in 20 -25 years but I don't think it will be 25% of what is forgiven.

At any rate, I don't think OP should go to any of these schools next year. If that isn't helpful to OP and he insist on going, I would go to cheapest school and push for IP.

OP: you sound a little lost to be honest. I'm not sure what job you want or where you want to live and raise your family. I feel that we are missing some facts here.