NYU v GULC

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ernie
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby ernie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:56 pm

NYU is known for its child advocacy offerings, including two child welfare clinics (family defense side; there's an entry-level and advanced-level clinic), juvenile justice clinic, and education law clinic. Students can enroll in Columbia's Education Policy clinic (which is probably the best of its kind), can practice with the Law Department's Family Court Division in the Law Department clinic, and with the Peter Cicchino Youth Project in the LGBTQ clinic. NYU also has the founding (and extremely active) chapter of the Suspension Representation Project, and a unique family practice simulation course, in addition to the typical family law doctrinal fare.

dc_diva wrote:Either school isn't going to get me a "unicorn" PI job

The reason TLS is generally dismissive of unicorn PI is because of how difficult these jobs are to get as a new attorney. But it's not really true that unicorn PI isn't possible from NYU (which I can attest to personally)—NYU punches above its weight in the PI realm. It's just that you shouldn't count on unicorn PI, since it's so competitive (no matter what schools you're considering). The point is that you should try to focus on typical outcomes when making this decision.

dc_diva
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby dc_diva » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:05 pm

ernie wrote:NYU is known for its child advocacy offerings, including two child welfare clinics (family defense side; there's an entry-level and advanced-level clinic), juvenile justice clinic, and education law clinic. Students can enroll in Columbia's Education Policy clinic (which is probably the best of its kind), can practice with the Law Department's Family Court Division in the Law Department clinic, and with the Peter Cicchino Youth Project in the LGBTQ clinic. NYU also has the founding (and extremely active) chapter of the Suspension Representation Project, and a unique family practice simulation course, in addition to the typical family law doctrinal fare.

dc_diva wrote:Either school isn't going to get me a "unicorn" PI job

The reason TLS is generally dismissive of unicorn PI is because of how difficult these jobs are to get as a new attorney. But it's not really true that unicorn PI isn't possible from NYU (which I can attest to personally)—NYU punches above its weight in the PI realm. It's just that you shouldn't count on unicorn PI, since it's so competitive (no matter what schools you're considering). The point is that you should try to focus on typical outcomes when making this decision.



This was really helpful, thank you!!

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ponderingmeerkat
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby ponderingmeerkat » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:33 pm

Michigan.

As someone who's in the military whose spouse went to the correct T13 school for her career trajectory despite the distance, you owe it to yourself to make the smart choice here. Your SO will be there at the end of it all, or they won't. Four years later and we made it through...it was tough, but it was definitely worth it. Don't get into too much debt or go to sub-par school simply because bae is at the Five Sided Puzzle Palace.

Put a deposit down in Ann Arbor.

dc_diva
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby dc_diva » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:47 pm

ponderingmeerkat wrote:Michigan.

As someone who's in the military whose spouse went to the correct T13 school for her career trajectory despite the distance, you owe it to yourself to make the smart choice here. Your SO will be there at the end of it all, or they won't. Four years later and we made it through...it was tough, but it was definitely worth it. Don't get into too much debt or go to sub-par school simply because bae is at the Five Sided Puzzle Palace.

Put a deposit down in Ann Arbor.


I appreciate this perspective and good to know you two made it through!

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ManoftheHour
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:54 pm

SmokeytheBear wrote:
Alexandros wrote:I know it's irritating to be told C when you ask A or B, but Michigan is clearly the right choice here.

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usn26
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby usn26 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:00 am

I vote GULC. The cost savings on COL should make up the gap with Mich (but you should get GULC to match that scholarship) unless there's a big tuition difference, and make a huge gap in COA between GULC and NYU. GULC sets you up to do the type of PI you want to do, positions you for gov/leg, keeps you in DC where you've been living and have your spouse, keeps the clerkship and biglaw doors open (albeit not as widely as your other options would).

You should give us debt at graduation numbers. Off the top of my head I'm thinking GULC would save you about $10k over Michigan and $100k over NYU but I could be way off. I don't see how NYU makes any sense at all at that rate. In your shoes I would choose GULC over Michigan, although Michigan is the better bet (but I think its much closer than other posters seem to).

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half moon
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby half moon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:08 am

If you're committed to public interest, I'd go with NYU. Even with decent scholarships, paying down your debt on a PI salary is unlikely so I think it would be better to go to the school with the strongest LRAP.

If your goals are less defined, I'd probably be choosing between NYU for potentially better outcomes and Michigan for minimizing debt. GULC still probably isn't worth the bit of savings you'd get in comparison to NYU.

In terms of long distance: have you checked the price of flights between Detroit and DC? It may turn out that there's not much difference in cost to get home from either NYC or Michigan.

dc_diva
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby dc_diva » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:32 am

Thanks everyone! I'm going to do a deeper dive on the numbers this weekend as was suggested. Hopefully this makes things a bit more clear!

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jjcorvino
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby jjcorvino » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:19 pm

I do not know the details, but people should stop yelling about Michigan. There is obviously a reason that OP does not want to move there. You all might think that there is no possible reason to not take the lower cost, but some people would trade that money for their personal lives. Sure, it might be the "objectively" right choice, but is it really the right choice if their SO couldn't get a job in Ann Arbor? Or maybe they need to be nearby a sick relative. We do not know their situation, and NYU with a $60k scholarship is not a "bad" choice.

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luckyirish13
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby luckyirish13 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:56 pm

dc_diva wrote:Thanks everyone! I'm going to do a deeper dive on the numbers this weekend as was suggested. Hopefully this makes things a bit more clear!
If you're certain you're going to go into PI work, then take a good hard look at all three school's LRAP programs. That's more important than scholarship IF you are certain you're going into PI. I have a buddy who went to Georgetown and now works for HUD, with his student loans completely covered because of the LRAP they offered. Considering you have a decent scholarship to GULC, and would have LRAP to cover the rest (assuming PI) GULC is probably a good bet for you. But all three of the schools that are being mentioned, NYU, GULC, and Michigan have good-great LRAP programs. By using those LRAP programs out of school, on a $65,000 salary, your monthly payment would be $48 at Michigan, $0 at NYU or Georgetown. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1769017008

Many commenters on TLS focus entirely on debt numbers, but if someone is going into PI, the more important figures are the LRAP numbers. I'd suggest that when you do the deep dive on numbers, focus primarily on LRAP.

That being said, if you're still trying to keep options open for BigLaw/Fed Clerk, then ignore the above, since the LRAP won't apply to you. In the event those are part of the plan, then go to the school that gives you the best chance at each of these.
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/nyu/ 62.5% Biglaw + 5.6% Fed Clerk = 68.1% (with 18.8% PI)
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/michigan/50.8% Biglaw + 10.2% Fed Clerk = 61.0% (with 12.7% PI)
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gulc/40.6% Biglaw + 3.5% Fed Clerk = 44.1% (with 19.6% PI)

The numbers do actually paint a good picture. If you want to have a good chance at Biglaw or a Federal Clerkship, then NYU or Michigan are much better than Georgetown, but if PI is actually what you want to do, the LRAP's at NYU and Georgetown are comparable, and Georgetown has offered you a better scholarship. If I were in your shoes, I would first determine how near to my heart PI work is. If it's something you know you want to do, Georgetown is probably best. If it's something you think you want to do but aren't sure, it is equally accessible coming out of NYU, so go with NYU. If you think you are leaning toward aiming for Biglaw/Federal Clerkship, NYU is probably best.

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clarion
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby clarion » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:27 pm

I'm a Fed Gov atty who went to GULC (feel free to PM me if you need), and I believe that the NYU-over-GULC convo above is being blown way out of proportion. I acknowledge that I have a "unicorn" job having gotten Fed right out of any law school, but the reality is that if PI/government is your aim, GULC is a solid option. The LRAP is great, and you cannot oversell the value of being able to intern/extern at the HQ office of almost every major federal government agency as well as many nonprofits during the semester. "

As far as LRAP is concerned, I'm a GS-12er at present and still have my loans 100% covered by GULC, including a bit of help toward my bar loan. A friend of mine who works at a different agency (also a GULC grad btw) is also a 12-equivalent and has his loans fully covered this year. So definitely review those LRAP programs as suggested above as it makes a huge difference.

So as not to belabor the point too much more: GULC is a great option. You have an uphill battle regardless of where you go simply because PI/gov is such a crapshoot. But being able to save money-which will be a godsend if congress decides to nuke or severely limit PSLF (a real possibility)-be closer to your SO, and have a wealth of opportunities to beef up your resume during the semester, makes GULC a solid option. I won't opine as to whether NYU is better. Having been out of TLS-world for a good while now I have very different feelings about what makes one school "better" than any other. I'm just gonna say that GULC isn't something you should let people talk you out of considering.

Good luck to you, and while I don't come on here very often feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any more specific questions!

ETA: (Clarification) While I'm not arguing for GULC over NYU necessarily, my opinions above are very much based on if you decide to steer more toward the policy/FedGov/PI route. NYU is almost inarguably better for big law in general: (big law in DC.... eh I'd say somewhat better than GULC, but you can't totally ignore the massive GULC alumni network in DC in the event your GPA fails you). And I have no idea about child advocacy/direct rep. I'll defer to others on that.

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Mr. Blackacre
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:06 pm

I am going to second Clarion above, despite a deep personal hatred for our great schools' administration and money-grubbing qualities. GULC is actually a fairly solid choice for public interest, and places quite well (considering its terrible reputation on this board) in DC-area PI jobs, both state and federal. I have a bunch of friends who came to GULC purely because of the school's public interest focus, and have heard on several occasions that it is actually one of the best T14 (TTT15) schools to go to for PI.

That being said, NYU is one of the two non-HYS schools I've consistently heard are better for PI, because it places (marginally) better, has just as good an LRAP program, and has the greater "prestige." What I know for sure is that Michigan is not the right choice if you want to go into PI, and IMO you are right to have discarded it as an option. Michigan doesn't really bring anything that NYU doesn't already bring in terms of flexibility, but NYU keeps your PI options a lot more open. Most people on this board focus on biglaw to the detriment of everything else, which is why they automatically default to Michigan when seeing your combination of scholarship/costs/respective employment outcomes. Also, lol at those saying your SO will basically submit themselves to your decisions. That might work in some relationships, but it doesn't work for everyone's - certainly wouldn't have worked in mine, and my SO would have (in my opinion rightfully so) told me to f*** off if I hadn't given her somewhat flexible options when I was deciding.

Ultimately, I think that if you truly want to keep your options open, you should go with NYU. I'd say if you were dead-set on PI in DC, GULC would be the better school, but with your uncertainty about clerkships/biglaw/bigfed, I think NYU is the overall better choice. GULC has atrocious (though improving) clerkship placement, and keeps decent biglaw employment stats in large part because of a big contingent going to NYC after graduation every year. Getting DC biglaw out of GULC can be really tough. Same with bigfed.

plutoniansky
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby plutoniansky » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:53 pm

I'm new to posting in TLS, but not surprised that people are urging NYU; however with the extra money to GULC, the DC work connections you already have, and your SO, GULC sounds like a great option. Especially if you want to into govt. I have heard great things about Gtown LRAP. If you're sure you don't want to work in NYC after law school, I think going to school in DC is smart. Clarion's post is definitely helpful. Congrats on your scholarship offers & good luck choosing!

cavalier1138
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:36 pm

plutoniansky wrote:I have heard great things about Gtown LRAP.


Really? Because there was an editorial in either WP or NYT within the past few months specifically talking about how Georgetown's entire LRAP plan is based on PSLF without any kind of endowment to support an alternative option if PSLF is eliminated or capped.

nyu2019maybeplease
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:30 am

Alexandros wrote:I know it's irritating to be told C when you ask A or B, but Michigan is clearly the right choice here.


I'm an NYC kid who picked Michigan over NYU and was worried about location. It sucks not being able to get a slice of cheesecake at 4 am, but other than that Ann Arbor is awesome. Pm me if you have questions.

Edit: did not see your thing about your SO. That changes things. If it's serious and you have a chance to be near them, take that seriously.

Alive97
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby Alive97 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:32 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Fri May 05, 2017 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

cavalier1138
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:36 pm

Alive97 wrote:The notion that a person's location preference for the three years of law school should be discounted is flawed.


The notion that a person's location preference (for a school, not for a career) should take precedence over job outcomes, scholarship offerings, and pretty much everything else is ridiculous.

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luckyirish13
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby luckyirish13 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:46 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Alive97 wrote:The notion that a person's location preference for the three years of law school should be discounted is flawed.


The notion that a person's location preference (for a school, not for a career) should take precedence over job outcomes, scholarship offerings, and pretty much everything else is ridiculous.
The notion that a person's location preference for three years of law school should be discounted, or conversely, that it should take clear precedence over job outcomes, are both ridiculous. Each of these issues are important considerations.

You go to law school for the purpose of coming out with a job, but you're also not a robot. You're human, and if you despise where you live for 3 years, that's going to cause significant issues in how well you study, how good your grades are, what your job prospects will be, and how long your energy will last for this career you're setting yourself up for. You don't want to go to University of Hawaii law school just because it's Hawaii, but you also don't want to go somewhere where you'll burn yourself out. Ideally, you'll select a place that will offer you positive job prospects, while also stimulating your legal study habits and personal well-being.

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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:48 pm

luckyirish13 wrote:The notion that a person's location preference for three years of law school should be discounted, or conversely, that it should take clear precedence over job outcomes, are both ridiculous. Each of these issues are important considerations.

You go to law school for the purpose of coming out with a job, but you're also not a robot. You're human, and if you despise where you live for 3 years, that's going to cause significant issues in how well you study, how good your grades are, what your job prospects will be, and how long your energy will last for this career you're setting yourself up for. You don't want to go to University of Hawaii law school just because it's Hawaii, but you also don't want to go somewhere where you'll burn yourself out. Ideally, you'll select a place that will offer you positive job prospects, while also stimulating your legal study habits and personal well-being.


And since no one is ever making a decision where they are looking at completely equivalent costs or job outcomes, that means...

(Hint: the answer is that you should suck it up and go to the best choice for your career, not the best choice for your three years of feeling "at home" in a particular location.)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:04 pm

Except the OP isn't considering D.C. because it's where they feel "at home," it's because of SO considerations, which every couple has to work out for themselves (as well as wanting to work there and make/maintain connections), so let's not worry about that part of the argument.

dc_diva
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby dc_diva » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:06 pm

Hi everyone, I really appreciate all of the input over the last week. I did go back and seriously considered Michigan, in fact I was prepared to commit. In a last ditch effort I told GULC that I would be committing to M the next day unless they gave more money. They ended up increasing to 140k! This makes it the cheapest option by far, and I'm also a fan of their LRAP if I do go gov/PI.

I definitely think that I will be my most productive self by not being in a long distance relationship (for those who were curious as to how serious it is - we live together and have a dog together, so I'd say pretty serious). I've juggled LDR and school before and it resulted in me not focusing 100% on school -- not something I want to repeat in law school. I also reached out to my network in DC for their opinions and have already lined up three potential internships for my 1L summer or second semester of 1L.

I've committed to GULC and am thrilled! I appreciate all of your suggestions - even those who said Michigan because I definitely would not have negotiated such a great scholarship had I not been prepared to take that offer!

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luckyirish13
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby luckyirish13 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:15 pm

dc_diva wrote:Hi everyone, I really appreciate all of the input over the last week. I did go back and seriously considered Michigan, in fact I was prepared to commit. In a last ditch effort I told GULC that I would be committing to M the next day unless they gave more money. They ended up increasing to 140k! This makes it the cheapest option by far, and I'm also a fan of their LRAP if I do go gov/PI.

I definitely think that I will be my most productive self by not being in a long distance relationship (for those who were curious as to how serious it is - we live together and have a dog together, so I'd say pretty serious). I've juggled LDR and school before and it resulted in me not focusing 100% on school -- not something I want to repeat in law school. I also reached out to my network in DC for their opinions and have already lined up three potential internships for my 1L summer or second semester of 1L.

I've committed to GULC and am thrilled! I appreciate all of your suggestions - even those who said Michigan because I definitely would not have negotiated such a great scholarship had I not been prepared to take that offer!
I for one am really happy for you. That's also really cool that you got an increased scholarship because of the reconsideration of Michigan. Good luck with your future!

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usn26
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Re: NYU v GULC

Postby usn26 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:40 pm

dc_diva wrote:Hi everyone, I really appreciate all of the input over the last week. I did go back and seriously considered Michigan, in fact I was prepared to commit. In a last ditch effort I told GULC that I would be committing to M the next day unless they gave more money. They ended up increasing to 140k! This makes it the cheapest option by far, and I'm also a fan of their LRAP if I do go gov/PI.

I definitely think that I will be my most productive self by not being in a long distance relationship (for those who were curious as to how serious it is - we live together and have a dog together, so I'd say pretty serious). I've juggled LDR and school before and it resulted in me not focusing 100% on school -- not something I want to repeat in law school. I also reached out to my network in DC for their opinions and have already lined up three potential internships for my 1L summer or second semester of 1L.

I've committed to GULC and am thrilled! I appreciate all of your suggestions - even those who said Michigan because I definitely would not have negotiated such a great scholarship had I not been prepared to take that offer!


Congrats! I think this is the best outcome and I hope it works out beautifully for you.




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