Whittier Shutting Down

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
Ferrisjso
Comptroller General of Cloudcuckooland
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Ferrisjso » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:54 pm

Npret wrote:I just googled "Is Thomas Jefferson Law a good school" and the majority of links on the first page talk about how awful it is. I don't think this puts 100% of culpability on the students, but it is fairly easy information to find.


If you just Google "Thomas Jefferson law school" you get basic info and an article about lawsuits against it for fraud being dismissed.
Got nothing linking to LST or employment stats that everyone says are so obvious.[/quote]

Cooley, InfiLaw, Thomas Jefferson and NYLS in particular have had specific events outlining how terrible they are. Cooley is Cooley, InfiLaw has a school losing it's student loan money and the other two on the brink of this and Thomas Jefferson and NYLS got sued for misrepresenting employment info. Most TTTT's aren't quite as noteworthy in terms of being bad.

Veil of Ignorance
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:22 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:01 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
Pragmatic Gun wrote:Ferris, how do you think that less than a 50% chance of becoming a full-time attorney is a good idea? I'm curious because you are the closest we have to a test subject that could determine the current issue we are debating.


Maybe if you guys weren't so brutal you'd have more test subjects. I'm being serious, how many of the people who are TTT and TTTT students who make threads actually stick around?(if they did all their threads would be 50 pages). I know there's alot of people who read the forums who never gather the confidence to post(because this has been confirmed in real life and it's probably more widespread). Well first off, i think it's over a fifty percent chance because of JD advantage/self selection. I also believe I will be ranked highly and I know everyone can make fun of me all I want for that but let's say I don't get employed, having less debt to go TTT was worth more than having a high paying job and more debt. There were also a lot of other factors that played into my decision but seeing how high interest is and that is accrues for three years/the bar period/tuition increases made me believe that all COA is underinflated no matter how much you try to be accurate and that 10%, 20% or whatever % chance of getting a better job simply wasn't worth it. To most laymen unless you went to like a handful of schools a lawyer is a lawyer, I won't get made fun of for going to QU and I'll be paying much less for a JD. I'll also get to be in my market of choice that I feel is more fertile grounds for a political rise.

Listen I don't want to get it twisted, I'm happy Whitter was shut down(and I hope every day, Charlotte, Florida Coastal and Arizona Summit follow suit) it is a scam, the same way Indiana Tech was a scam and should have been shut down. Dozens of other schools should be shut down also but QU isn't one of them. In an ideal world they'd be about 150 law schools and QU would be in the worst bunch but it is better than the TTTT's alot of the TTT's. At the end of the day I recieved lots of advice on TLS both from lurking and my inexplicably long choosing thread and I just felt most people's advice for me not to go to a TTT contradicted the advice of go where you want to practice and go where you take on less debt. The coins flip chance of being employed was just a risk I felt more comfortable with than taking than 100k+ in debt and being in a situation I didn't want to be in.

In terms of people going to TTT's and TTTT's again, I tend to agree with TLS on this matter but outside of here the worlds a very different place and there's lots of people who give the impression of competence(pre law advisors etc) who steer kids towards these schools as they're likely their cheapest options. I remember one of my advisors told me "either go to a T50 law school regardless of price, or not at all". For example I've never heard a negative word about QU Law outside of TLS's forum's and with the exception of InfiLaw/Cooley and a few others that have achieved memehood I sadly think this is largely true everywhere. I've made jokes about several TTTT's to other people who are not involved with the law, and the end result is they ended up looking at me like I was an *******, which would be the same reaction that all of you would get if we had this conversation about Whittier in real life. The only exception is Cooley and InfiLaw because again creating rankings and making yourself numero dous and an Arizona LS partnering with a Florida UG to prey on minority's really does earn you a special place in hell.


I just can't believe you wrote all this, in total seriousness.

User avatar
Pragmatic Gun
Posts: 1361
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:09 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
Pragmatic Gun wrote:Ferris, how do you think that less than a 50% chance of becoming a full-time attorney is a good idea? I'm curious because you are the closest we have to a test subject that could determine the current issue we are debating.


Maybe if you guys weren't so brutal you'd have more test subjects. I'm being serious, how many of the people who are TTT and TTTT students who make threads actually stick around?(if they did all their threads would be 50 pages). I know there's alot of people who read the forums who never gather the confidence to post(because this has been confirmed in real life and it's probably more widespread). Well first off, i think it's over a fifty percent chance because of JD advantage/self selection. I also believe I will be ranked highly and I know everyone can make fun of me all I want for that but let's say I don't get employed, having less debt to go TTT was worth more than having a high paying job and more debt. There were also a lot of other factors that played into my decision but seeing how high interest is and that is accrues for three years/the bar period/tuition increases made me believe that all COA is underinflated no matter how much you try to be accurate and that 10%, 20% or whatever % chance of getting a better job simply wasn't worth it. To most laymen unless you went to like a handful of schools a lawyer is a lawyer, I won't get made fun of for going to QU and I'll be paying much less for a JD. I'll also get to be in my market of choice that I feel is more fertile grounds for a political rise.

Listen I don't want to get it twisted, I'm happy Whitter was shut down(and I hope every day, Charlotte, Florida Coastal and Arizona Summit follow suit) it is a scam, the same way Indiana Tech was a scam and should have been shut down. Dozens of other schools should be shut down also but QU isn't one of them. In an ideal world they'd be about 150 law schools and QU would be in the worst bunch but it is better than the TTTT's alot of the TTT's. At the end of the day I recieved lots of advice on TLS both from lurking and my inexplicably long choosing thread and I just felt most people's advice for me not to go to a TTT contradicted the advice of go where you want to practice and go where you take on less debt. The coins flip chance of being employed was just a risk I felt more comfortable with than taking than 100k+ in debt and being in a situation I didn't want to be in.

In terms of people going to TTT's and TTTT's again, I tend to agree with TLS on this matter but outside of here the worlds a very different place and there's lots of people who give the impression of competence(pre law advisors etc) who steer kids towards these schools as they're likely their cheapest options. I remember one of my advisors told me "either go to a T50 law school regardless of price, or not at all". For example I've never heard a negative word about QU Law outside of TLS's forum's and with the exception of InfiLaw/Cooley and a few others that have achieved memehood I sadly think this is largely true everywhere. I've made jokes about several TTTT's to other people who are not involved with the law, and the end result is they ended up looking at me like I was an *******, which would be the same reaction that all of you would get if we had this conversation about Whittier in real life. The only exception is Cooley and InfiLaw because again creating rankings and making yourself numero dous and an Arizona LS partnering with a Florida UG to prey on minority's really does earn you a special place in hell.


I just can't believe you wrote all this, in total seriousness.


He is a special test subject, isn't he? He will get me more grant funding in the future.

vcap180
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:48 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:51 pm

Lmfao @ how hard some of you are reaching to try to show that these kids weren't either willfully ignorant or reckless in their decision to attend Whittier. These kids deserve about 50% of the blame.
Last edited by vcap180 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

vcap180
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:48 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:56 pm

Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.



My bad. Maybe you're right. It must take a super sophisticated search like "is golden gate law worth it" or "golden gate law employment". We certainly couldn't expect aspiring lawyers to try something that complicated on their own.

This is laughable.

User avatar
Nebby
amateur huffpo
Posts: 29529
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:23 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Nebby » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:17 am

vcap180 wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.



My bad. Maybe you're right. It must take a super sophisticated search like "is golden gate law worth it" or "golden gate law employment". We certainly couldn't expect aspiring lawyers to try something that complicated on their own.

This is laughable.

Where did you go to law school anyway?

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 28098
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:27 am

vcap180 wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.


My bad. Maybe you're right. It must take a super sophisticated search like "is golden gate law worth it" or "golden gate law employment". We certainly couldn't expect aspiring lawyers to try something that complicated on their own.

This is laughable.

Honestly, I would never have searched something like "is golden gate law worth it." It just wouldn't seem like a useful search to me (why do I want to read some yahoo's subjective opinion about what school was "worth it"?). I'd read the school's web site backwards and forwards and I'd probably trust their employment numbers or how they spin them, because they have the most info because they're the school, right? And if I'm looking at Whittier employment I'm probably not comparing it with Harvard and realizing that there's a huge gulf between Whittier and what a top school gets you.

Like I'm not claiming that people made informed choices. I'm saying that without the right context, a fair amount of this stuff is hard to evaluate.

In any case, even if they did make mistakes, some fucking compassion never hurts.

User avatar
abujabal
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:32 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby abujabal » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:51 am

ITT: People blame the victims of a con job for being conned.

"Hey idiot why'd you put your pension fund in those AAA CDOS?"

vcap180
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:48 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:55 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.


My bad. Maybe you're right. It must take a super sophisticated search like "is golden gate law worth it" or "golden gate law employment". We certainly couldn't expect aspiring lawyers to try something that complicated on their own.

This is laughable.

Honestly, I would never have searched something like "is golden gate law worth it." It just wouldn't seem like a useful search to me (why do I want to read some yahoo's subjective opinion about what school was "worth it"?). I'd read the school's web site backwards and forwards and I'd probably trust their employment numbers or how they spin them, because they have the most info because they're the school, right? And if I'm looking at Whittier employment I'm probably not comparing it with Harvard and realizing that there's a huge gulf between Whittier and what a top school gets you.

Like I'm not claiming that people made informed choices. I'm saying that without the right context, a fair amount of this stuff is hard to evaluate.

In any case, even if they did make mistakes, some fucking compassion never hurts.


I am baffled that you are still pursuing this angle. Ask ANYONE you know over the age of like 15 to go on the computer and do some research about whether Whittier Law is worth attending and then ask them for their conclusion. Id love to hear the results.

Now, of course, we're not talking about random people here, we're talking about people making a quarter million dollar decision. Limiting your research to the website of the institution that is trying to sell you their quarter million dollar product is downright negligent. It's that simple.

I find it hard to have compassion if we can't even admit that that they bear some responsibility. As I've said, the scam artists are equally guilty, but if we can't acknowledge that the students are partially responsible, then what impetus do they have to make a more informed decision in the future? By casting them as nothing more than a victim, history seems likely to repeat itself. But whatever.

EDIT: also, as someone who would never Google something like "is school X worth it", how did you come to be a moderator of a forum that is largely dedicated to this sort of inquiry.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 28098
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:17 am

because "is x school worth it" is a dumb google search. I would google employment stats or something that's an actual search, not a Yahoo questions question. I would be looking for data, not some random people arguing about shit on internet forums.

I'm baffled that you find any of this baffling. There are plenty of people arguing with you about this. And FWIW, I applied to law school in the days before LST and scamblogs and mandatory disclosures. I don't think there's been that great a shift yet in understanding how this all works. (But then I also don't believe shit like "someone with a 142 is too stupid to be a lawyer" either.) People also aren't always as suspicious of schools as they should be. Again, the school has the most information about their programs, and schools are non-profit entities, right? People without a lot of exposure to this kind of thing don't realize that schools don't actually look out for the best interests of applicants.

vcap180
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:48 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:32 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:because "is x school worth it" is a dumb google search. I would google employment stats or something that's an actual search, not a Yahoo questions question. I would be looking for data, not some random people arguing about shit on internet forums.

I'm baffled that you find any of this baffling. There are plenty of people arguing with you about this. And FWIW, I applied to law school in the days before LST and scamblogs and mandatory disclosures. I don't think there's been that great a shift yet in understanding how this all works. (But then I also don't believe shit like "someone with a 142 is too stupid to be a lawyer" either.) People also aren't always as suspicious of schools as they should be. Again, the school has the most information about their programs, and schools are non-profit entities, right? People without a lot of exposure to this kind of thing don't realize that schools don't actually look out for the best interests of applicants.


the people "arguing" about this aren't arguing anything at all - they are spewing emotional, self-righteous bs lol.

if someone did research the employment stats, they almost certainly wouldn't go to Whittier, and if they did, they'd be negligent to do so. a google search of Whittier's employment stats will bring you to LST in just a few clicks. as I said, if you're limiting your research on a quarter million dollar investment to the website of the institution that is selling the quarter million dollar product, then you're an idiot.

and lastly, there HAS been a great shift in the understanding of how this all works, which is precisely why there has been a massive decline in applications over the last half decade.

User avatar
Ferrisjso
Comptroller General of Cloudcuckooland
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:31 am

vcap180 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:because "is x school worth it" is a dumb google search. I would google employment stats or something that's an actual search, not a Yahoo questions question. I would be looking for data, not some random people arguing about shit on internet forums.

I'm baffled that you find any of this baffling. There are plenty of people arguing with you about this. And FWIW, I applied to law school in the days before LST and scamblogs and mandatory disclosures. I don't think there's been that great a shift yet in understanding how this all works. (But then I also don't believe shit like "someone with a 142 is too stupid to be a lawyer" either.) People also aren't always as suspicious of schools as they should be. Again, the school has the most information about their programs, and schools are non-profit entities, right? People without a lot of exposure to this kind of thing don't realize that schools don't actually look out for the best interests of applicants.


the people "arguing" about this aren't arguing anything at all - they are spewing emotional, self-righteous bs lol.

if someone did research the employment stats, they almost certainly wouldn't go to Whittier, and if they did, they'd be negligent to do so. a google search of Whittier's employment stats will bring you to LST in just a few clicks. as I said, if you're limiting your research on a quarter million dollar investment to the website of the institution that is selling the quarter million dollar product, then you're an idiot.

and lastly, there HAS been a great shift in the understanding of how this all works, which is precisely why there has been a massive decline in applications over the last half decade.


So what you're saying is that if they google that question, there's one only one right answer to it(mylsn) and if they don't find that answer and/or come to the same conclusion you would from that, they're idiots? Why would the average 0L disregard everything they've heard both from school materials and elsewhere because of what they saw on one website? Do you really expect 0L's to go on mylsn look up their schools info and be like "oh my god, look at how horrible those numbers, are, I should give up on this despite all the people around me telling me this is a great idea/information that contradicts this? I'm sorry that is not a reasonable expectation of the average 0L, nm one's who are going to TTTT's(who have probably little exposure to the norms of this process).

Again
Here's a list of reasons why people go to TTT's and TTTT's
1)good local reputation that outweighs whatever they read online
2)students can go to better schools but are getting the best deals at TTTT's
3)students want to become a lawyer and will attend the only program they can attend, god damm the consequence
4)want to be solo practitioners(ignoring how difficult this is in reality) and thus don't care about the employment stats
5)I think it's fair to say it's more likely for 0L's to access the fake employment stats and propaganda materials a school sends them in the mail than find the ABA 509's/Employment reports. Also ABA employment reports and 509's just give raw numbers not percentages which makes it more difficult for students to put it in context(I just put it in Excel but this takes time).
6)many people will get nothing but positive feedback from their family, friends and community and simply don't know the people qualified to give them advice(and some of these people give advice that would make TLS cringe anyway).
7)if a student went into alot of UG debt and doesn't believe they will ever pay this off anyway they might doubledown with another degree. Some just don't understand what debt is.
8)you'd be suprised how many people have no idea how interest works. Paying back 200k in debt over time that doesn't grow is a very different thing than paying 200k in debt with 6% interest and if interest worked the way they thought it did, a lot of insane decisions would actually make sense somewhat.

cavalier1138
Posts: 4303
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:39 am

Ferrisjso wrote:So what you're saying is that if they google that question, there's one only one right answer to it(mylsn) and if they don't find that answer and/or come to the same conclusion you would from that, they're idiots? Why would the average 0L disregard everything they've heard both from school materials and elsewhere because of what they saw on one website? Do you really expect 0L's to go on mylsn look up their schools info and be like "oh my god, look at how horrible those numbers, are, I should give up on this despite all the people around me telling me this is a great idea/information that contradicts this? I'm sorry that is not a reasonable expectation of the average 0L, nm one's who are going to TTTT's(who have probably little exposure to the norms of this process).

Again
Here's a list of reasons why people go to TTT's and TTTT's
1)good local reputation that outweighs whatever they read online
2)students can go to better schools but are getting the best deals at TTTT's
3)students want to become a lawyer and will attend the only program they can attend, god damm the consequence
4)want to be solo practitioners(ignoring how difficult this is in reality) and thus don't care about the employment stats
5)I think it's fair to say it's more likely for 0L's to access the fake employment stats and propaganda materials a school sends them in the mail than find the ABA 509's/Employment reports. Also ABA employment reports and 509's just give raw numbers not percentages which makes it more difficult for students to put it in context(I just put it in Excel but this takes time).
6)many people will get nothing but positive feedback from their family, friends and community and simply don't know the people qualified to give them advice(and some of these people give advice that would make TLS cringe anyway).
7)if a student went into alot of UG debt and doesn't believe they will ever pay this off anyway they might doubledown with another degree. Some just don't understand what debt is.
8)you'd be suprised how many people have no idea how interest works. Paying back 200k in debt over time that doesn't grow is a very different thing than paying 200k in debt with 6% interest and if interest worked the way they thought it did, a lot of insane decisions would actually make sense somewhat.


I'm just quoting this for posterity, since the main debate has moved far afield.

That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.

vcap180
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:48 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:07 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:So what you're saying is that if they google that question, there's one only one right answer to it(mylsn) and if they don't find that answer and/or come to the same conclusion you would from that, they're idiots? Why would the average 0L disregard everything they've heard both from school materials and elsewhere because of what they saw on one website? Do you really expect 0L's to go on mylsn look up their schools info and be like "oh my god, look at how horrible those numbers, are, I should give up on this despite all the people around me telling me this is a great idea/information that contradicts this? I'm sorry that is not a reasonable expectation of the average 0L, nm one's who are going to TTTT's(who have probably little exposure to the norms of this process).

Again
Here's a list of reasons why people go to TTT's and TTTT's
1)good local reputation that outweighs whatever they read online
2)students can go to better schools but are getting the best deals at TTTT's
3)students want to become a lawyer and will attend the only program they can attend, god damm the consequence
4)want to be solo practitioners(ignoring how difficult this is in reality) and thus don't care about the employment stats
5)I think it's fair to say it's more likely for 0L's to access the fake employment stats and propaganda materials a school sends them in the mail than find the ABA 509's/Employment reports. Also ABA employment reports and 509's just give raw numbers not percentages which makes it more difficult for students to put it in context(I just put it in Excel but this takes time).
6)many people will get nothing but positive feedback from their family, friends and community and simply don't know the people qualified to give them advice(and some of these people give advice that would make TLS cringe anyway).
7)if a student went into alot of UG debt and doesn't believe they will ever pay this off anyway they might doubledown with another degree. Some just don't understand what debt is.
8)you'd be suprised how many people have no idea how interest works. Paying back 200k in debt over time that doesn't grow is a very different thing than paying 200k in debt with 6% interest and if interest worked the way they thought it did, a lot of insane decisions would actually make sense somewhat.


I'm just quoting this for posterity, since the main debate has moved far afield.

That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.


Pretty much agree with all of this.

Given how boring this particular "debate" was getting, I wasn't sure how much longer it could go on...that is, until I saw that Ferrisjo has a 40 page decision thread.

Npret
Posts: 1163
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:57 am

vcap180 wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.



My bad. Maybe you're right. It must take a super sophisticated search like "is golden gate law worth it" or "golden gate law employment". We certainly couldn't expect aspiring lawyers to try something that complicated on their own.

This is laughable. [/quote]

Something here is laughable but you are obviously too dense to understand it.
Enjoy whatever school you attend.

Veil of Ignorance
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:22 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:07 am

There is no way that there is an actual distinction between TTT and TTTT.

User avatar
lavarman84
#MAGA
Posts: 6912
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lavarman84 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:08 am

vcap180 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:because "is x school worth it" is a dumb google search. I would google employment stats or something that's an actual search, not a Yahoo questions question. I would be looking for data, not some random people arguing about shit on internet forums.

I'm baffled that you find any of this baffling. There are plenty of people arguing with you about this. And FWIW, I applied to law school in the days before LST and scamblogs and mandatory disclosures. I don't think there's been that great a shift yet in understanding how this all works. (But then I also don't believe shit like "someone with a 142 is too stupid to be a lawyer" either.) People also aren't always as suspicious of schools as they should be. Again, the school has the most information about their programs, and schools are non-profit entities, right? People without a lot of exposure to this kind of thing don't realize that schools don't actually look out for the best interests of applicants.


the people "arguing" about this aren't arguing anything at all - they are spewing emotional, self-righteous bs lol.

if someone did research the employment stats, they almost certainly wouldn't go to Whittier, and if they did, they'd be negligent to do so. a google search of Whittier's employment stats will bring you to LST in just a few clicks. as I said, if you're limiting your research on a quarter million dollar investment to the website of the institution that is selling the quarter million dollar product, then you're an idiot.

and lastly, there HAS been a great shift in the understanding of how this all works, which is precisely why there has been a massive decline in applications over the last half decade.


I googled "Whittier law employment stats" and "Whittier law job stats." LST did not pop up on the first page either time. It bring me to Whittier's jobs stats on Whittier's website, but that can be misleading to someone unfamiliar with everything. The LST report did not pop up until the second page of the google search on the first search and the third page on the second search. Even then, the link says, "LST Reports | Whittier Law School." A person unfamiliar with what LST is likely isn't going to click on that link.

Nobody here is totally absolving the students of blame. Rather, they are saying that despite their comparative fault, the students were exploited by a broken system. A system that arms schools like Whittier with an aura of legitimacy at face value. A system where the ABA and federal government tell prospective students that Whittier is trustworthy.

You can certainly argue negligence here, but the reasonable people in this thread recognize that Whittier is far more at fault than the students. It's not "emotional, self-righteous bs" that people are spewing. It's logical and rational ire aimed at schools like Whittier that prey upon ignorance and the American dream.

The institution isn't supposed to be selling a product. It's a non-profit school that is supposed to be offering an education backed by both the ABA and the federal government. Yet, this institution is instead preying upon its students while not offering what it is supposed to offer. I'm glad that Whittier is shutting down, and I feel empathy towards those who made the mistake of going there.

Anyways, I'm wasting my time. You're going to continue pushing your agenda no matter what anyone says to you. Some people just like blaming the victim.

User avatar
lavarman84
#MAGA
Posts: 6912
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lavarman84 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:14 am

cavalier1138 wrote:That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.


Ferris isn't the problem here. You're one of the posters on this site who has fallen in love with your own opinion and view yourself as an expert. Ferris's decision is justifiable. He has a full ride or near full ride. He's aware of the stats. The stats don't paint a rosy picture (but not the truly atrocious picture some of y'all claim). He's made his decision to go. That's his right. If the worst case scenario happens, the dude isn't going to have soul-crushing debt.

The people with $200,000 in debt from a terrible school are the ones who got scammed. The guy who went to a bad school on a full ride isn't in a bad place. You really need to stop thinking that the generic TLS advice applies to every single situation. You really don't know as much as you think you do. Stop shitting on Ferris. His decision isn't unreasonable.

User avatar
White Dwarf
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:54 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby White Dwarf » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:25 am

I know a fair number of students who ended up at TTTs. They were all generally aware of the lousy employment numbers, but 1) thought they'd be one of the special ones ("Andrew Cuomo went to Albany!" is single-handedly keeping that school in business), and 2) "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"/"Don't tell me what I can't do"/"YOLO".

Don't underestimate the power of #2 to get people to do stupid things.

One of the students I tutored for the LSAT told me that she preferred a lower ranked school because people like me were just going to be "handed" jobs and end up being soft. She lasted one year at Cal Western.

Npret
Posts: 1163
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:29 am

lawman84 wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:because "is x school worth it" is a dumb google search. I would google employment stats or something that's an actual search, not a Yahoo questions question. I would be looking for data, not some random people arguing about shit on internet forums.

I'm baffled that you find any of this baffling. There are plenty of people arguing with you about this. And FWIW, I applied to law school in the days before LST and scamblogs and mandatory disclosures. I don't think there's been that great a shift yet in understanding how this all works. (But then I also don't believe shit like "someone with a 142 is too stupid to be a lawyer" either.) People also aren't always as suspicious of schools as they should be. Again, the school has the most information about their programs, and schools are non-profit entities, right? People without a lot of exposure to this kind of thing don't realize that schools don't actually look out for the best interests of applicants.


the people "arguing" about this aren't arguing anything at all - they are spewing emotional, self-righteous bs lol.

if someone did research the employment stats, they almost certainly wouldn't go to Whittier, and if they did, they'd be negligent to do so. a google search of Whittier's employment stats will bring you to LST in just a few clicks. as I said, if you're limiting your research on a quarter million dollar investment to the website of the institution that is selling the quarter million dollar product, then you're an idiot.

and lastly, there HAS been a great shift in the understanding of how this all works, which is precisely why there has been a massive decline in applications over the last half decade.


I googled "Whittier law employment stats" and "Whittier law job stats." LST did not pop up on the first page either time. It bring me to Whittier's jobs stats on Whittier's website, but that can be misleading to someone unfamiliar with everything. The LST report did not pop up until the second page of the google search on the first search and the third page on the second search. Even then, the link says, "LST Reports | Whittier Law School." A person unfamiliar with what LST is likely isn't going to click on that link.

Nobody here is totally absolving the students of blame. Rather, they are saying that despite their comparative fault, the students were exploited by a broken system. A system that arms schools like Whittier with an aura of legitimacy at face value. A system where the ABA and federal government tell prospective students that Whittier is trustworthy.

You can certainly argue negligence here, but the reasonable people in this thread recognize that Whittier is far more at fault than the students. It's not "emotional, self-righteous bs" that people are spewing. It's logical and rational ire aimed at schools like Whittier that prey upon ignorance and the American dream.

The institution isn't supposed to be selling a product. It's a non-profit school that is supposed to be offering an education backed by both the ABA and the federal government. Yet, this institution is instead preying upon its students while not offering what it is supposed to offer. I'm glad that Whittier is shutting down, and I feel empathy towards those who made the mistake of going there.

Anyways, I'm wasting my time. You're going to continue pushing your agenda no matter what anyone says to you. Some people just like blaming the victim.


It still makes me angry that law schools take advantage of the fact that people assume a law school would be ethical and honest in its dealings. People think that a law school would be an upstanding and scrupulously honest institution instead of marketers barely complying with the law.

If law schools hadn't so misrepresented employment for decades, there would have been no need for LST, a threatened Congrssional investigation and the mandated ABA disclosures.

If law schools hadn't taken advantage of easy student loan availability and all
start charging as much or more than Harvard, 0Ls wouldn't be in this situation.

cavalier1138
Posts: 4303
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:33 am

lawman84 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.


Ferris isn't the problem here. You're one of the posters on this site who has fallen in love with your own opinion and view yourself as an expert. Ferris's decision is justifiable. He has a full ride or near full ride. He's aware of the stats. The stats don't paint a rosy picture (but not the truly atrocious picture some of y'all claim). He's made his decision to go. That's his right. If the worst case scenario happens, the dude isn't going to have soul-crushing debt.

The people with $200,000 in debt from a terrible school are the ones who got scammed. The guy who went to a bad school on a full ride isn't in a bad place. You really need to stop thinking that the generic TLS advice applies to every single situation. You really don't know as much as you think you do. Stop shitting on Ferris. His decision isn't unreasonable.


Evidently, you haven't actually read any of Ferris's posts, including the ones about his political ambitions or his existing offer at Cardozo. But thanks for the standard "Herp derp everyone but me is so elitist and mean" line. Never gets old.

User avatar
jjcorvino
Posts: 1441
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:49 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:33 am

lawman84 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.


Ferris isn't the problem here. You're one of the posters on this site who has fallen in love with your own opinion and view yourself as an expert. Ferris's decision is justifiable. He has a full ride or near full ride. He's aware of the stats. The stats don't paint a rosy picture (but not the truly atrocious picture some of y'all claim). He's made his decision to go. That's his right. If the worst case scenario happens, the dude isn't going to have soul-crushing debt.

The people with $200,000 in debt from a terrible school are the ones who got scammed. The guy who went to a bad school on a full ride isn't in a bad place. You really need to stop thinking that the generic TLS advice applies to every single situation. You really don't know as much as you think you do. Stop shitting on Ferris. His decision isn't unreasonable.


Ferris will still be around $75k in debt. I still don't think that is a good decision.

Anyway, this thread isn't about Ferris. This is about how people got scammed. Both parties are culpable. The students made bad decisions and the administration preyed on those students.

Paul Campos
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:38 am

Couple of things:

I don't see the point of debating the relative responsibility of the various parties in this scenario. The problem is fundamentally structural: if the government lends people $230,000 no questions asked to attend law schools with something close to de facto open admission policies, then those schools are going to be filled with people who shouldn't be going to law school, who will never be lawyers, and who will never pay back the money they owe.

Those schools will keep operating until one of two things happen: the government turns off the loan spigot (this is what's happening to the Infilaw racket, because the government actually has some minimal standards it applies to explicitly for-profit educational outfits), or the central administrators at an otherwise respectable institution get too embarrassed by their law school to keep it open. That's what happened with Whittier, which is actually a pretty decent LAC.

One thing that's been mentioned by many people in this thread really needs to be emphasized: the extent to which people all across the political spectrum in the USA treat higher education as some sort of magic bullet. The idea that we need a lot more college graduates is absurd, as is the idea that the problem is that too many people are majoring in "useless" majors instead of STEM. There's no shortage of STEM graduates, and there's essentially no structural unemployment in the STEM fields.

The big problem of the 21st century (along with the planet getting a bit toasty) is going to be the problem of surplus labor. The law school/higher ed mess in America is just one very early symptom of that. Millennials are screwed because there aren't enough good jobs for them and there are never going to be, full stop. Things will be even worse in this regard for their kids. "Google it" is a useful piece of advice on the individual level, but a worse than useless response in terms of collective political action.

User avatar
lavarman84
#MAGA
Posts: 6912
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lavarman84 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:50 am

jjcorvino wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:That said, of course people who fall for cons are at least partly responsible. That doesn't mean the conman isn't a terrible person, and it doesn't mean that certain groups of people aren't disadvantaged. But literally read every one of Ferris's posts, and you see someone who was exposed to negative statistics about his school choices over and over and over and over and over again. Now, he's posting long missives about why other students might ignore objective information in order to make mind-blowingly stupid decisions, without realizing that he's literally talking about himself. At a certain point, I just can't feel that much sympathy for someone who willfully ignores reality in order to justify their own choices.


Ferris isn't the problem here. You're one of the posters on this site who has fallen in love with your own opinion and view yourself as an expert. Ferris's decision is justifiable. He has a full ride or near full ride. He's aware of the stats. The stats don't paint a rosy picture (but not the truly atrocious picture some of y'all claim). He's made his decision to go. That's his right. If the worst case scenario happens, the dude isn't going to have soul-crushing debt.

The people with $200,000 in debt from a terrible school are the ones who got scammed. The guy who went to a bad school on a full ride isn't in a bad place. You really need to stop thinking that the generic TLS advice applies to every single situation. You really don't know as much as you think you do. Stop shitting on Ferris. His decision isn't unreasonable.


Ferris will still be around $75k in debt. I still don't think that is a good decision.

Anyway, this thread isn't about Ferris. This is about how people got scammed. Both parties are culpable. The students made bad decisions and the administration preyed on those students.


If Ferris wants to keep his debt down, he could make it out of LS with a much more manageable figure. I wouldn't call it a good decision, but it's not the total disaster y'all are acting as if it is. It's a justifiable decision.

I agree that this thread isn't about Ferris, but if people are going to keep shitting on him, I'll defend his decision.

cavalier1138 wrote:Evidently, you haven't actually read any of Ferris's posts, including the ones about his political ambitions or his existing offer at Cardozo. But thanks for the standard "Herp derp everyone but me is so elitist and mean" line. Never gets old.


I read through part of his thread. The political ambitions are what they are. Point is that his decision isn't indefensible. Yet, people shit on the guy because he made his own choice. He doesn't want to live in NYC, so Cardozo is out.

This also isn't about you being an elitist. It's about you thinking you're always right and going after people who disregard your advice. Sometimes, it's warranted. Sometimes, it's not.

Npret
Posts: 1163
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:08 am

Paul Campos wrote:Couple of things:

I don't see the point of debating the relative responsibility of the various parties in this scenario. The problem is fundamentally structural: if the government lends people $230,000 no questions asked to attend law schools with something close to de facto open admission policies, then those schools are going to be filled with people who shouldn't be going to law school, who will never be lawyers, and who will never pay back the money they owe.

Those schools will keep operating until one of two things happen: the government turns off the loan spigot (this is what's happening to the Infilaw racket, because the government actually has some minimal standards it applies to explicitly for-profit educational outfits), or the central administrators at an otherwise respectable institution get too embarrassed by their law school to keep it open. That's what happened with Whittier, which is actually a pretty decent LAC.

One thing that's been mentioned by many people in this thread really needs to be emphasized: the extent to which people all across the political spectrum in the USA treat higher education as some sort of magic bullet. The idea that we need a lot more college graduates is absurd, as is the idea that the problem is that too many people are majoring in "useless" majors instead of STEM. There's no shortage of STEM graduates, and there's essentially no structural unemployment in the STEM fields.

The big problem of the 21st century (along with the planet getting a bit toasty) is going to be the problem of surplus labor. The law school/higher ed mess in America is just one very early symptom of that. Millennials are screwed because there aren't enough good jobs for them and there are never going to be, full stop. Things will be even worse in this regard for their kids. "Google it" is a useful piece of advice on the individual level, but a worse than useless response in terms of collective political action.


I debate the level of blame because I don't think people understand the grip and extent of scamming law schools. Making fun of victims of a scam for not being smarter or doing more homework isn't addressing the problem either.

Personally I think most of the posters in the forum are making a incorrect assumptions about their potential legal career and their salaries. Just looking at the employment numbers at graduation seems to be enough to justify hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. So I don't think most of these posters have reason to judge the Whittier students other than it reinforces their belief that they are not being scammed and their own massive non dischargeable student loan debt is a good decision.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SolemnMan and 4 guests