Whittier Shutting Down

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Nebby
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:26 pm

vcap180 wrote:
Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:

People often rely on word of mouth and what people they know tell them. (that's kinda the entire idea of lay prestige in a nutshell)

It's a trope that higher education is the secret to opportunity. That trope isn't necessarily true, but millions don't know that. No one operates with all information, and some have more than others. SES and familial educational background correlate with what base level of information someone has and what tools they have to acquire additional information.

You fallaciously assume that everyone should be exactly like you, therefore you reject that anyone wouldn't do things exactly as you do and reject any contrary thought.

Everyone had raised this and various issues.

You, being dumb, fail to learn or listen. This is ironically the same conduct you're accusing Whittier students of.

Anyway, that is all



Nah, i only assume that people should do basic research before making major life decisions. And in this case, sufficient research can be done with 10 minutes and an Internet connection.

You keep saying this but every year people do research and still decide to go. You're projecting your own value judgment as an objective fact

tinyvessels
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby tinyvessels » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:30 pm

vcap180 wrote:
Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:

People often rely on word of mouth and what people they know tell them. (that's kinda the entire idea of lay prestige in a nutshell)

It's a trope that higher education is the secret to opportunity. That trope isn't necessarily true, but millions don't know that. No one operates with all information, and some have more than others. SES and familial educational background correlate with what base level of information someone has and what tools they have to acquire additional information.

You fallaciously assume that everyone should be exactly like you, therefore you reject that anyone wouldn't do things exactly as you do and reject any contrary thought.

Everyone had raised this and various issues.

You, being dumb, fail to learn or listen. This is ironically the same conduct you're accusing Whittier students of.

Anyway, that is all



Nah, i only assume that people should do basic research before making major life decisions. And in this case, sufficient research can be done with 10 minutes and an Internet connection.


Find another talking point because I'm bored now.

vcap180
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby vcap180 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:40 pm

Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:

People often rely on word of mouth and what people they know tell them. (that's kinda the entire idea of lay prestige in a nutshell)

It's a trope that higher education is the secret to opportunity. That trope isn't necessarily true, but millions don't know that. No one operates with all information, and some have more than others. SES and familial educational background correlate with what base level of information someone has and what tools they have to acquire additional information.

You fallaciously assume that everyone should be exactly like you, therefore you reject that anyone wouldn't do things exactly as you do and reject any contrary thought.

Everyone had raised this and various issues.

You, being dumb, fail to learn or listen. This is ironically the same conduct you're accusing Whittier students of.

Anyway, that is all



Nah, i only assume that people should do basic research before making major life decisions. And in this case, sufficient research can be done with 10 minutes and an Internet connection.

You keep saying this but every year people do research and still decide to go. You're projecting your own value judgment as an objective fact


People make dumbass decisions all the time, despite there being plenty of easily accessible information to help them avoid making those decisions. What's your point? This just means they're partially responsible for the consequences of making that dumbass decision, which is my entire point here.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:47 pm

vcap180 wrote:
Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:

People often rely on word of mouth and what people they know tell them. (that's kinda the entire idea of lay prestige in a nutshell)

It's a trope that higher education is the secret to opportunity. That trope isn't necessarily true, but millions don't know that. No one operates with all information, and some have more than others. SES and familial educational background correlate with what base level of information someone has and what tools they have to acquire additional information.

You fallaciously assume that everyone should be exactly like you, therefore you reject that anyone wouldn't do things exactly as you do and reject any contrary thought.

Everyone had raised this and various issues.

You, being dumb, fail to learn or listen. This is ironically the same conduct you're accusing Whittier students of.

Anyway, that is all



Nah, i only assume that people should do basic research before making major life decisions. And in this case, sufficient research can be done with 10 minutes and an Internet connection.

Is that an assumption you are making? Please do 10 minutes of research on another scam school and see what you find.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:48 pm

Even if they made a dumb decision, they don't deserve to have their life ruined by astronomical debt.

Also, re: the scams being exposed - popular culture takes way longer to change than posting some stats on the internet.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:51 pm

So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.
Last edited by Npret on Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Yeah, we really should ditch most of those law school profiles.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:54 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, we really should ditch most of those law school profiles.

Certainly undermines the argument that everyone knows these schools are dishonest scams.

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Pomeranian
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Pomeranian » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:00 pm

Keep in mind that 80% of students in community colleges in urban areas like LA don't have basic high school math and english skills. These are the kids being pushed into going to college (and once there-- grad school, TTTT law schools etc.). These Whittier students would make a lot of money being plumbers and electricians. In the LA area that can be a six figure salary gig.

It is sad that common sense no longer exists in our nation.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Nebby wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
Greenteachurro wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I feel pretty sure there are a lot of people who live near Whittier and want to go there because you go to whatever school is closest and they heard from someone local that it was a good school. I don't think it's because they "wont take no for an answer!" at all.



You can't be serious!!

There are tons of infinitely better schools right near Whittier.

1) most of the nearby schools aren't any better (Western State? St. Francis School of Law? Pacific Coast? Pacific West?).
2) you're underestimating how regional/local some people's lives can be.

Even if, say, you applied to Loyola or UCI, if you don't get in there but do get into Whittier, I don't think that's some weird stubborn "I won't take no for an answer!!" any more than someone who doesn't get into Harvard or Yale who ends up going to Cornell. You got into school, right? Lots of people still apply the whole "reach/safety" school analysis to law school.

Look, I'm not saying that going to Whittier is a good idea, at all. But I think the people dismissing the Whittier students as stupid and responsible for their own situation underestimate how not transparent this is and how what some people just don't know. So you go to a local college and your pre-law advisor person tells you you can't study for the LSAT (which people here have reported being told) and you take it cold and you do poorly, but you want to go to law school, you don't know any lawyers, and your pre-law advisor says you just need to get a JD and Whittier is fine. Why wouldn't you believe them?



I have read enough of your posts to know that you are perfectly reasonable, so I am not going to harp on this much longer, but I really think you're being ridiculous here. I look back at this school's medians -- 146 and 2.85 -- and the reality is that these kids are either objectively stupid, or more likely, refused to put in the necessary effort to be a REMOTELY competitive candidate.

Based on their admissions numbers, at least 75% of their most recent class would not have had a better option.

And in response to your last comment, I would say you shouldn't believe what one person says when making one of the most significant decisions of your life.


Look the point isn't whether or not these people are smart or put in the effort to be a competitive candidate. I think some people are arguing that if you have been told that a law degree is a ticket to success and you live in an area with like 5-10 law schools, and all you need to do is to get into one of them, then Whittier probably seems fine. If you thought that law was a ticket to success and everyone tells you it's a ticket to success, then you probably don't think there are law schools that are scams.

Yeah I don't think anyone is really arguing that Whittier students should take ZERO blame. Just that law schools that play into some people's false perceptions are predatory and maybe a little more to blame for the situation.



and for the 100000000th time, 10 minutes of google research would have disabused them of this notion.

I mean, reality shows this isn't true but feel free to keep living in your bubble


I just googled "Is Thomas Jefferson Law a good school" and the majority of links on the first page talk about how awful it is. I don't think this puts 100% of culpability on the students, but it is fairly easy information to find.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:08 pm

:o
Pomeranian wrote:Keep in mind that 80% of students in community colleges in urban areas like LA don't have basic high school math and english skills. These are the kids being pushed into going to college (and once there-- grad school, TTTT law schools etc.). These Whittier students would make a lot of money being plumbers and electricians. In the LA area that can be a six figure salary gig.

It is sad that common sense no longer exists in our nation.

The sad part is law schools enriching themselves from the federal government using students as the intermediary.

It has nothing to do with "common sense in our nation" whatever the f that means.

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haus
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby haus » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:10 pm

Pomeranian wrote:Keep in mind that 80% of students in community colleges in urban areas like LA don't have basic high school math and english skills. These are the kids being pushed into going to college (and once there-- grad school, TTTT law schools etc.). These Whittier students would make a lot of money being plumbers and electricians. In the LA area that can be a six figure salary gig.

It is sad that common sense no longer exists in our nation.

As someone who has worked in the building trades, I find it humorous every time I am on a higher education forum and see the argument that entire groups of people could just become X and make enormous piles of money.

While some people do eventually earn very large paychecks, it is often after many years of work and a bit of good luck in having specialized in a particular function that happens to be in demand (well before most people would have had a reasonable reason to know of such demand).

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... Angeles-CA

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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:14 pm

I just googled "Is Thomas Jefferson Law a good school" and the majority of links on the first page talk about how awful it is. I don't think this puts 100% of culpability on the students, but it is fairly easy information to find.[/quote]

If you just Google "Thomas Jefferson law school" you get basic info and an article about lawsuits against it for fraud being dismissed.
Got nothing linking to LST or employment stats that everyone says are so obvious.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:15 pm

Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.


Two links on the first page of google results when searching for "Golden Gate Law School" talk about how awful it is an how it is a scam. The others don't exactly paint a rosy picture either, they just don't outright trash it.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:16 pm

jjcorvino wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.


Two links on the first page of google results when searching for "Golden Gate Law School" talk about how awful it is an how it is a scam. The others don't exactly paint a rosy picture either, they just don't outright trash it.

We must be getting different results. I am on my mobile but I saw nothing that said don't go except a terrible blog.
Last edited by Npret on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:18 pm

Npret wrote:I just googled "Is Thomas Jefferson Law a good school" and the majority of links on the first page talk about how awful it is. I don't think this puts 100% of culpability on the students, but it is fairly easy information to find.


If you just Google "Thomas Jefferson law school" you get basic info and an article about lawsuits against it for fraud being dismissed.
Got nothing linking to LST or employment stats that everyone says are so obvious.[/quote]

When two of the links talks about being sued for fraud, that is pretty bad. Also, even their Wikipedia page (which is one of the first links) says that they had a 28.8% employment rate.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:20 pm

Npret wrote:
jjcorvino wrote:
Npret wrote:So I googled Golden Gate Law School and the 4th result was a gem from the TLS wiki extolling it's virtues:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/wiki/Gol ... ool_of_Law

I didn't even know TLS had a wiki.

The only scam link that came up was the 4th tier reality blog or whatever it is.

I think the assumption that law schools are lying scammers is well known on the internet is completely unfounded.


Two links on the first page of google results when searching for "Golden Gate Law School" talk about how awful it is an how it is a scam. The others don't exactly paint a rosy picture either, they just don't outright trash it.

We must be getting different results


I get a link to T14 Paradise and an Above the Law article about the worst schools in America.

Monday
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Monday » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:21 pm

.
Last edited by Monday on Thu May 11, 2017 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby jjcorvino » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:25 pm

Look, all I am saying is that this information is fairly accessible. Sure, some people might never think to look at employment statistics of their schools, and that is why the schools themselves have some culpability. However, I would expect a prospective student to at least read the wikipedia article about their school, and employment statistics are right there in each one. Maybe they don't know that 30% employment is bad compared to other schools? I don't pretend to know the plight of people coming from disadvantaged communities. That is why I have sympathy for the people scammed by these schools. What I do not agree with is people saying that this is difficult information to find.

Npret
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Npret » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:27 pm

Monday wrote:Google tailors your results.

This makes sense of course.

I would just note that in addition to the employment score the wiki pages notes that Thomas Jefferson got a perfect score for transparency from LST and that the school won an award for successfully implementing a program for solo practioners. It also said that the school has many students who are immigrants or 1st generation students.

Anyway I'm not going to do battling google results. I'm just suggesting that dismissing the students as idiots or whatever they've been called here doesn't accurately reflect the information .

I'm also suggesting that just reading posts here from more sophisticated and informed students shows a general lack of realistically facing the amount owed at graduation. Most people post their scholarships and not how much they will owe, for example. I can't recall ever seeing anyone overestimate their debt. In other words, my belief is that most students ignore or minimize the cost and the impact of the debt they take on for school. It not just Whittier students.

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lawlzzz
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lawlzzz » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:39 pm

I only saw a couple negative links in my search of "is thomas jefferson law a good school" or -- the more likely search -- "thomas jefferson law." Both were from blogs, which potential students might write off as biased and unreliable. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias come into play here, and even the smartest of people are susceptible to this. Plus, my search also got me this: http://www.businessinsider.com/thomas-j ... ads-2014-2

Business Insider seems like a more reliable source than Third Tier Reality. And these potential students really believe they will end up like the students in the first couple parts of the article, instead of the "unlucky ones."

Oh, and google searches vary from person to person based on your search history and google's algorithms, so not everyone will get the same search results. That's another factor that comes into play.

I'm not completely absolving the students, but many ITT are oversimplifying the issues way too much.

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Ferrisjso » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:40 pm

Npret wrote:
Monday wrote:Google tailors your results.

This makes sense of course.

I would just note that in addition to the employment score the wiki pages notes that Thomas Jefferson got a perfect score for transparency from LST and that the school won an award for successfully implementing a program for solo practioners. It also said that the school has many students who are immigrants or 1st generation students.

Anyway I'm not going to do battling google results. I'm just suggesting that dismissing the students as idiots or whatever they've been called here doesn't accurately reflect the information .

I'm also suggesting that just reading posts here from more sophisticated and informed students shows a general lack of realistically facing the amount owed at graduation. Most people post their scholarships and not how much they will owe, for example. I can't recall ever seeing anyone overestimate their debt. In other words, my belief is that most students ignore or minimize the cost and the impact of the debt they take on for school. It not just Whittier students.


Here's a list of reasons why people go to TTT's and TTTT's
1)good local reputation that outweighs whatever they read online
2)students can go to better schools but are getting the best deals at TTTT's
3)students want to become a lawyer and will attend the only program they can attend, god damm the consequence
4)want to be solo practitioners(ignoring how difficult this is in reality) and thus don't care about the employment stats
5)I think it's fair to say it's more likely for 0L's to access the fake employment stats and propaganda materials a school sends them in the mail than find the ABA 509's/Employment reports. Also ABA employment reports and 509's just give raw numbers not percentages which makes it more difficult for students to put it in context(I just put it in Excel but this takes time).
6)many people will get nothing but positive feedback from their family, friends and community and simply don't know the people qualified to give them advice.
7)if a student went into alot of UG debt and doesn't believe they will ever pay this off anyway they might doubledown with another degree. Some just don't understand what debt is.
8)you'd be suprised how many people have no idea how interest works. Paying back 200k in debt over time that doesn't grow is a very different thing than paying 200k in debt with 6% interest and if interest worked the way they thought it did, a lot of insane decisions would actually make sense somewhat.

The smiley face is supposed to be an 8) it's not letting me change it back.
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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lawlzzz
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby lawlzzz » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:42 pm

jjcorvino wrote:
Npret wrote:I just googled "Is Thomas Jefferson Law a good school" and the majority of links on the first page talk about how awful it is. I don't think this puts 100% of culpability on the students, but it is fairly easy information to find.


If you just Google "Thomas Jefferson law school" you get basic info and an article about lawsuits against it for fraud being dismissed.
Got nothing linking to LST or employment stats that everyone says are so obvious.


When two of the links talks about being sued for fraud, that is pretty bad. Also, even their Wikipedia page (which is one of the first links) says that they had a 28.8% employment rate.[/quote]

A link came up for me that a jury rejected that fraud claim. For me, this would still be a huge red flag. But I can see how people may reason their way to one of these schools.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:42 pm

Ferris has a point

Veil of Ignorance
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Re: Whittier Shutting Down

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:45 pm

I think the youtube video of the announcement, along with the promotional videos of Whittier "suggested" on the side, could form a piece called "the fall of the American bourgeoisie."




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