Harvard vs UVA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

Harvard
22
31%
UVA
50
69%
 
Total votes: 72

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:46 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

I wouldn't say my opinion is rooted in intuition. But it is rooted in anecdotal observation, as I'm sure yours is.

I have classmates, colleagues, and friends from throughout the T14 who have targeted fedgov positions. Grades/rank is generally less of a factor for HYS grads compared to other T14 grads.

What's your basis for saying that "UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard?"

I met a lot of federal attorneys through 2 summers and a semester in fedgov, and noticed that UVA was the most represented law school among all the attorneys I met. So much so that it was noticeable.

Boiler2020

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Boiler2020 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:43 am

Thanks for the input, folks. Most of the stuff before veering a bit off topic was pretty much in line with what I was already thinking. Since I'm interested in FedGov, but not necessarily gunning for FedGov, I think the less debt is the smarter play. Especially since I'm willing to go after a 2L SA to reduce the debt further and keep an open mind about private practice for the purposes of paying debt off.

shadowfax

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby shadowfax » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:30 pm

Although it is not possible to do with any certainty you need to predict how well you will do in law school. You need middle of the pack grades at least to accomplish your objectives. Your LSAT is essentially median at H and your GPA a real outlier. Oddly it is probably easier to get middle of the road grades at H than UVA given the differences in grading method.

You got into H. Go.

ZVBXRPL

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby ZVBXRPL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:30 pm

What would H need based aid look like?

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quiver

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby quiver » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:41 pm

shadowfax wrote:Although it is not possible to do with any certainty you need to predict how well you will do in law school. You need middle of the pack grades at least to accomplish your objectives. Your LSAT is essentially median at H and your GPA a real outlier. Oddly it is probably easier to get middle of the road grades at H than UVA given the differences in grading method.

You got into H. Go.
Please stop posting.

Boiler2020 wrote:Thanks for the input, folks. Most of the stuff before veering a bit off topic was pretty much in line with what I was already thinking. Since I'm interested in FedGov, but not necessarily gunning for FedGov, I think the less debt is the smarter play. Especially since I'm willing to go after a 2L SA to reduce the debt further and keep an open mind about private practice for the purposes of paying debt off.
As others have said, this makes sense. Good choice, OP. And congrats!

Pure Applesauce

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Pure Applesauce » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:47 pm

shadowfax wrote:Although it is not possible to do with any certainty you need to predict how well you will do in law school. You need middle of the pack grades at least to accomplish your objectives. Your LSAT is essentially median at H and your GPA a real outlier. Oddly it is probably easier to get middle of the road grades at H than UVA given the differences in grading method.

You got into H. Go.


This is a very bad post

T3TON

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby T3TON » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:23 pm

Nebby wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

I wouldn't say my opinion is rooted in intuition. But it is rooted in anecdotal observation, as I'm sure yours is.

I have classmates, colleagues, and friends from throughout the T14 who have targeted fedgov positions. Grades/rank is generally less of a factor for HYS grads compared to other T14 grads.

What's your basis for saying that "UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard?"

I met a lot of federal attorneys through 2 summers and a semester in fedgov, and noticed that UVA was the most represented law school among all the attorneys I met. So much so that it was noticeable.


I dont see how this answers rpumpkin's point. He said that Harvard gives students with worse grades better opportunities at DC fedgov. It shouldnt be a surprise that a large number of Virginia students go to DC as it is the closest major market. That doesnt mean that at equal price it is a good idea to take Virginia over Harvard. In your view does Virginia also have the same placement power in DC fedgov as Yale?

lawboundsomeday

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby lawboundsomeday » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:52 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

I wouldn't say my opinion is rooted in intuition. But it is rooted in anecdotal observation, as I'm sure yours is.

I have classmates, colleagues, and friends from throughout the T14 who have targeted fedgov positions. Grades/rank is generally less of a factor for HYS grads compared to other T14 grads.

What's your basis for saying that "UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard?"


I lean Harvard notwithstanding the debt difference b/w the two. Over a whole career that’s just not that much, and the LIPP at H is a plus too. UVA is a great school too, but it’s not just about placement power for the first job (where I would give the edge to H but I grant UVA is strong too). It’s about brand over a whole career. Harvard is, well, Harvard. Will UVA be top 10 in 20 years? Likely but not certain, especially because I don’t think the whole university there is really on the way up. Will Harvard be top 5 for sure and probably still top 3? You bet it will. I don’t think choosing UVA is crazy under these circumstances, but I think asking ‘can I get a good first fedgov job from UVA?’ is not the only question.

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:53 pm

T3TON wrote:I dont see how this answers rpumpkin's point. He said that Harvard gives students with worse grades better opportunities at DC fedgov. It shouldnt be a surprise that a large number of Virginia students go to DC as it is the closest major market. That doesnt mean that at equal price it is a good idea to take Virginia over Harvard. In your view does Virginia also have the same placement power in DC fedgov as Yale?

Yes. I think a median UVA student would do just as well as a median Yale student. The majority of fedgov hiring is way more idiosyncratic than law firm hiring. Ask any federal attorney on TLS and they'll say the same. For instance, during my time at EPA OGC, I met four attorneys who went to Vermont law school (none clerked) and only one that went to Yale (who clerked D.Mass and 2d Cir.). Would I argue that Vermont has better placement power than Yale? No. Would I argue that class rank and school rank matters much less in fedgov hiring? Yes.

School rank and grades matter, but not nearly as much as other factors, such as demonstrated commitment to public service, maturity, prior work experience, good personality, good interviewing skills, etc. Because of the idiosyncratic nature of most fedgov hiring, UVA and Harvard are essentially peers for general fedgov hiring purposes, and a median UVA student will do the same as a median Harvard student. Hell, a median UVA student with demonstrated commitment to public service will always be chosen over the top Harvard student with no demonstrated commitment to public service.

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VirginiaFan

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby VirginiaFan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:54 pm

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Last edited by VirginiaFan on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:55 pm

lawboundsomeday wrote:I lean Harvard notwithstanding the debt difference b/w the two. Over a whole career that’s just not that much, and the LIPP at H is a plus too. UVA is a great school too, but it’s not just about placement power for the first job (where I would give the edge to H but I grant UVA is strong too). It’s about brand over a whole career. Harvard is, well, Harvard. Will UVA be top 10 in 20 years? Likely but not certain, especially because I don’t think the whole university there is really on the way up. Will Harvard be top 5 for sure and probably still top 3? You bet it will. I don’t think choosing UVA is crazy under these circumstances, but I think asking ‘can I get a good first fedgov job from UVA?’ is not the only question.

I really hate it when fucking 0Ls post in these threads.

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:55 pm

shadowfax wrote:Although it is not possible to do with any certainty you need to predict how well you will do in law school. You need middle of the pack grades at least to accomplish your objectives. Your LSAT is essentially median at H and your GPA a real outlier. Oddly it is probably easier to get middle of the road grades at H than UVA given the differences in grading method.

You got into H. Go.

Shut the fuck up

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jbagelboy

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:56 pm

lawboundsomeday wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:I meant general placement power, not just biglaw. OP is not looking solely at biglaw. UVA's got great placement for fedgov in DC.

We may not be understanding "placement power" in the same way. I mean, UCLA places more graduates into big-law and government positions in SoCal than Yale, but that doesn't mean that someone interested in working in SoCal should choose UCLA over Yale. I understand "placement power" as being about one's chances in a job market assuming a certain class rank.

Like I said, if I wanted big law in DC, I'd rather be median at HLS than median at UVA. I have less knowledge about fedgov, but my sense is that a HLS grad (or a SLS or YLS grad) would have a sight edge over a UVA grad as well.

You have less knowledge or no knowledge? Your sense seems to be rooted in intuition, not reality

I wouldn't say my opinion is rooted in intuition. But it is rooted in anecdotal observation, as I'm sure yours is.

I have classmates, colleagues, and friends from throughout the T14 who have targeted fedgov positions. Grades/rank is generally less of a factor for HYS grads compared to other T14 grads.

What's your basis for saying that "UVA has comparable placement power in DC compared to Harvard?"


I lean Harvard notwithstanding the debt difference b/w the two. Over a whole career that’s just not that much, and the LIPP at H is a plus too. UVA is a great school too, but it’s not just about placement power for the first job (where I would give the edge to H but I grant UVA is strong too). It’s about brand over a whole career. Harvard is, well, Harvard. Will UVA be top 10 in 20 years? Likely but not certain, especially because I don’t think the whole university there is really on the way up. Will Harvard be top 5 for sure and probably still top 3? You bet it will. I don’t think choosing UVA is crazy under these circumstances, but I think asking ‘can I get a good first fedgov job from UVA?’ is not the only question.


The school from which you received your law degree matters less and less each year after you graduate, not more. The most important question is, can it help you secure the jobs you want as a law stusent/recent graduate, and at what cost. Also, 'top 10' and 'top 5', what are these numbers? Top of what? US News magazine? That does not mean very much comparing among top schools, and it means even less each year.

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 pm

but I saw legally blonde once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shadowfax

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby shadowfax » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:03 pm

If entrance numbers are predictive and they are a 3.57 puts you in the bottom 1/3 of UVA and so far below the bottom 1/4 at Harvard it doesn't matter. In spite of the knuckleheads who comment here you best be worried about your potential class standing. Getting into H with your GPA you have won the lotto. Or you have a really cool story. Cause it just doesnt happen often. Easy to check. Either way congrats. Competing against a class with a median GPA of 3.86...thank goodness that all S' s get you where you want to go. Forced curves on the other hand suck. I don't know what UVA does.

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SeewhathappensLarry

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby SeewhathappensLarry » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:08 pm

shadowfax wrote:If entrance numbers are predictive and they are a 3.57 puts you in the bottom 1/3 of UVA and so far below the bottom 1/4 at Harvard it doesn't matter. In spite of the knuckleheads who comment here you best be worried about your potential class standing. Getting into H with your GPA you have won the lotto. Or you have a really cool story. Cause it just doesnt happen often. Easy to check. Either way congrats. Competing against a class with a median GPA of 3.86...thank goodness that all S' s get you where you want to go. Forced curves on the other hand suck. I don't know what UVA does.



And here I thought you were the authority on this

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jbagelboy

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:22 pm

shadowfax wrote:If entrance numbers are predictive and they are a 3.57 puts you in the bottom 1/3 of UVA and so far below the bottom 1/4 at Harvard it doesn't matter. In spite of the knuckleheads who comment here you best be worried about your potential class standing. Getting into H with your GPA you have won the lotto. Or you have a really cool story. Cause it just doesnt happen often. Easy to check. Either way congrats. Competing against a class with a median GPA of 3.86...thank goodness that all S' s get you where you want to go. Forced curves on the other hand suck. I don't know what UVA does.


FYI. GPA has been found to be almost entirely non-predictive of law school performance. This makes absolutely no sense.

LSAT is mildly predictive. and OP has a just above median LSAT at HLS.

And I'm assuming you mean all P's. All P's would mean OP was still in the running for a V100 firm in New York, with a marginal chance of striking out altogether. OP would have no chance at "BigFed."

Nebby

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Nebby » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:25 pm

shadowfax wrote:If entrance numbers are predictive and they are a 3.57 puts you in the bottom 1/3 of UVA and so far below the bottom 1/4 at Harvard it doesn't matter. In spite of the knuckleheads who comment here you best be worried about your potential class standing. Getting into H with your GPA you have won the lotto. Or you have a really cool story. Cause it just doesnt happen often. Easy to check. Either way congrats. Competing against a class with a median GPA of 3.86...thank goodness that all S' s get you where you want to go. Forced curves on the other hand suck. I don't know what UVA does.

You are mind numbingly ill-informed. Please come back here after you've began practicing

Boiler2020

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Re: Harvard vs UVA

Postby Boiler2020 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:42 pm

Nebby wrote:
shadowfax wrote:If entrance numbers are predictive and they are a 3.57 puts you in the bottom 1/3 of UVA and so far below the bottom 1/4 at Harvard it doesn't matter. In spite of the knuckleheads who comment here you best be worried about your potential class standing. Getting into H with your GPA you have won the lotto. Or you have a really cool story. Cause it just doesnt happen often. Easy to check. Either way congrats. Competing against a class with a median GPA of 3.86...thank goodness that all S' s get you where you want to go. Forced curves on the other hand suck. I don't know what UVA does.

You are mind numbingly ill-informed. Please come back here after you've began practicing


I assume shadowfax is a troll because the idea that GPA could be predictive is mind-numbingly stupid. It doesn't take into account major, the school's reputation for grade inflation, gpa trend, life circumstances, age of the gpa, or any other number of similar factors. I'm under no illusion about the challenges of law school, but when it comes to the list of things that concern me about my ability to succeed, undergrad gpa doesn't come within a country mile of appearing on the list.



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