Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:52 am

Friends!

Let me explain the title: I submitted my deposit to Vanderbilt a couple of days ago, and since I was born and raised in NY, I would love to come back to work in NYC BL after law school. I was deciding between Vandy, BU, BC, and Fordham (decided that paying sticker at a lower T-14/T-20 were no-nos and I eliminated them from my list). I know that people usually would say BC/BU/Fordham is the better call for my goals. Fordham gave me the most and BC/BU/VANDY all gave me roughly the same amount of merit aid.

However, with Vandy's most recent employment statistics and my work experience (I've worked at the US Attorney's Office EDNY/SDNY for the past 2 years) do you think I made the right call? I was wondering if this work experience gives me strong enough ties to NYC to hopefully come back to NY with a Vandy degree. Or, does this not matter and I should've stuck with the "If not T-14, go to school in the market you want to work in" mantra?

Thanks again!

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby dabigchina » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:55 am

I personally think you made the right call. It's not like it's unheard of for people to work in NYC from Vanderbilt. Hopefully you aren't paying a lot more than what Fordham would have cost.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby tuesdayninja » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:00 am

I think if the price difference wasn't too significant between Fordham and Vandy you made a good call. Vandy placed a lot of people in NY recently so it's not impossible to get back. Plus NY isn't a ties focused from what I've read.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:05 am

dabigchina wrote:I personally think you made the right call. It's not like it's unheard of for people to work in NYC from Vanderbilt. Hopefully you aren't paying a lot more than what Fordham would have cost.


tuesdayninja wrote:I think if the price difference wasn't too significant between Fordham and Vandy you made a good call. Vandy placed a lot of people in NY recently so it's not impossible to get back. Plus NY isn't a ties focused from what I've read.


Thanks for your responses!

Fordham would've cost me $30k less total in tuition, and I'm going to assume that Nashville (although it's not cheap) has a lower COL than NYC.
Last edited by Thomas Hagan, ESQ. on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

chicagoburger
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby chicagoburger » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:07 am

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Friends!

Let me explain the title: I submitted my deposit to Vanderbilt a couple of days ago, and since I was born and raised in NY, I would love to come back to work in NYC BL after law school. I was deciding between Vandy, BU, BC, and Fordham (decided that paying sticker at a lower T-14/T-20 were no-nos and I eliminated them from my list). I know that people usually would say BC/BU/Fordham is the better call for my goals. Fordham gave me the most and BC/BU/VANDY all gave me roughly the same amount of merit aid.

However, with Vandy's most recent employment statistics and my work experience (I've worked at the US Attorney's Office EDNY/SDNY for the past 2 years) do you think I made the right call? I was wondering if this work experience gives me strong enough ties to NYC to hopefully come back to NY with a Vandy degree. Or, does this not matter and I should've stuck with the "If not T-14, go to school in the market you want to work in" mantra?

Thanks again!


Retake! Get 180 and you will get full rides at T14.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:08 am

chicagoburger wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Friends!

Let me explain the title: I submitted my deposit to Vanderbilt a couple of days ago, and since I was born and raised in NY, I would love to come back to work in NYC BL after law school. I was deciding between Vandy, BU, BC, and Fordham (decided that paying sticker at a lower T-14/T-20 were no-nos and I eliminated them from my list). I know that people usually would say BC/BU/Fordham is the better call for my goals. Fordham gave me the most and BC/BU/VANDY all gave me roughly the same amount of merit aid.

However, with Vandy's most recent employment statistics and my work experience (I've worked at the US Attorney's Office EDNY/SDNY for the past 2 years) do you think I made the right call? I was wondering if this work experience gives me strong enough ties to NYC to hopefully come back to NY with a Vandy degree. Or, does this not matter and I should've stuck with the "If not T-14, go to school in the market you want to work in" mantra?

Thanks again!


Retake! Get 180 and you will get full rides at T14.


I'll retake if you do!

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guynourmin
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:15 am

If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


chicagoburger wrote:Retake! Get 180 and you will get full rides at T14.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:29 am

guybourdin wrote:If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


Thanks!! Ahh i meant to say Fordham costs $30k LESS total.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Shakawkaw » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:34 am

If your goals are BL, NYC BL doesn't care about ties as much. If you wanted to go back to PI, I think you'd be fine coming out of Vandy too. You made the right choice here! Enjoy it!

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 am

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


Thanks!! Ahh i meant to say Fordham costs $30k LESS total.


makes it less obvious than before, but if your goals are BL, I would feel more comfortable at Vandy than Fordham, fwiw.

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Shakawkaw
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Shakawkaw » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 am

guybourdin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


Thanks!! Ahh i meant to say Fordham costs $30k LESS total.


makes it less obvious than before, but if your goals are BL, I would feel more comfortable at Vandy than Fordham, fwiw.

Dis too.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:06 pm

You'll probably need to be top 3rdish (maybe a little higher) at either school to have a respectable chance at NYC big law. I don't think I would do any non-T14 (and I mean that in the historical sense of the term) if I were big law or bust but Vandy is ok with big law goals depending on price/other options.

Whether you made a "good" decision largely comes down to debt IMO. But, seems fine.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:50 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote: Or, does this not matter and I should've stuck with the "If not T-14, go to school in the market you want to work in" mantra?

I'm not going to tell anyone that they have to stick to a mantra, but you decided to attend a school where you've probably got less than a 50/50 shot of reaching your goal of NYC big law. If you didn't have a plausible back-up goal in mind before you made a decision, start working on that now.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:25 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote: Or, does this not matter and I should've stuck with the "If not T-14, go to school in the market you want to work in" mantra?

I'm not going to tell anyone that they have to stick to a mantra, but you decided to attend a school where you've probably got less than a 50/50 shot of reaching your goal of NYC big law. If you didn't have a plausible back-up goal in mind before you made a decision, start working on that now.


Understood, but I'm also curious as to the actual chances of NYC biglaw from Vandy, especially compared to schools like Fordham. I'm not sure if "less than a 50/50 shot of NYC Biglaw" from Vandy is entirely accurate since self-selection comes into play.

So yes, I guess I was asking if Vanderbilt was a better choice for my goals compared to my other options, not "is vanderbilt the best choice out of all law schools to get to nyc biglaw".

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:29 pm

Shakawkaw wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


Thanks!! Ahh i meant to say Fordham costs $30k LESS total.


makes it less obvious than before, but if your goals are BL, I would feel more comfortable at Vandy than Fordham, fwiw.

Dis too.


BigZuck wrote:You'll probably need to be top 3rdish (maybe a little higher) at either school to have a respectable chance at NYC big law. I don't think I would do any non-T14 (and I mean that in the historical sense of the term) if I were big law or bust but Vandy is ok with big law goals depending on price/other options.

Whether you made a "good" decision largely comes down to debt IMO. But, seems fine.


Thanks!! I think I share the same feelings as you both. Of course it would be hard to get back to NY if you don't make top third out of ANY school, let alone a T20. I'm confident that Vandy is the best choice out of all of my options.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby GHH-t » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:59 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:If Vandy was that much cheaper than Fordham, then you definitely made the right call. Would probably be the right call at equal price imo. afaia, you don't really need "ties" to nyc because its nyc. As Ferris might say, the city has a complex that assumes you want to be there. If you did need ties, born/raised/professional network is definitely enough. Congrats!


Thanks!! Ahh i meant to say Fordham costs $30k LESS total.


makes it less obvious than before, but if your goals are BL, I would feel more comfortable at Vandy than Fordham, fwiw.

Dis too.


BigZuck wrote:You'll probably need to be top 3rdish (maybe a little higher) at either school to have a respectable chance at NYC big law. I don't think I would do any non-T14 (and I mean that in the historical sense of the term) if I were big law or bust but Vandy is ok with big law goals depending on price/other options.

Whether you made a "good" decision largely comes down to debt IMO. But, seems fine.


Thanks!! I think I share the same feelings as you both. Of course it would be hard to get back to NY if you don't make top third out of ANY school, let alone a T20. I'm confident that Vandy is the best choice out of all of my options.


I'm a Vandy grad and when I was in school, a very small percentage of the class wanted to go to NYC, meaning it was wide open. Probably the most competitive markets were Nashville, Atlanta, and DC. But if you wanted to go to Chicago, New York, San Francisco, or LA, the world was your oyster. Firms like to have diversity of top law schools. It means more referrals.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:19 pm

GHH-t wrote:I'm a Vandy grad and when I was in school, a very small percentage of the class wanted to go to NYC, meaning it was wide open. Probably the most competitive markets were Nashville, Atlanta, and DC. But if you wanted to go to Chicago, New York, San Francisco, or LA, the world was your oyster. Firms like to have diversity of top law schools. It means more referrals.

The bolded is true, but I'm going to be a little harsh here: Vandy isn't a top school; it's a good regional school. Students at good regional schools can get big law in major markets outside of their region, but they generally need at least good (and often excellent) grades to feel comfortable about their chances. If OP ends up at median (and he should assume that's where he'll end up), there's a decent chance that he strikes out in big law.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:26 pm

rpupkin wrote:
GHH-t wrote:I'm a Vandy grad and when I was in school, a very small percentage of the class wanted to go to NYC, meaning it was wide open. Probably the most competitive markets were Nashville, Atlanta, and DC. But if you wanted to go to Chicago, New York, San Francisco, or LA, the world was your oyster. Firms like to have diversity of top law schools. It means more referrals.

The bolded is true, but I'm going to be a little harsh here: Vandy isn't a top school; it's a good regional school. Students at good regional schools can get big law in major markets outside of their region, but they generally need at least good (and often excellent) grades to feel comfortable about their chances. If OP ends up at median (and he should assume that's where he'll end up), there's a decent chance that he strikes out in big law.


While I agree mostly with what you said, how regional is Vandy? If a school places most of it's graduates in a particular market (New York), isn't that market within the school's region?

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:59 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While I agree mostly with what you said, how regional is Vandy? If a school places most of it's graduates in a particular market (New York), isn't that market within the school's region?

Definitely. But does Vandy place most of its graduates in New York? Here's the ABA 2015 form:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2015-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Vandy had 185 gradautes, 21 of whom reported being employed in the state of New York. I'm not sure what the definition of "most" is in the South, but I'd have to think that 10% - 15% doesn't qualify.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:10 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While I agree mostly with what you said, how regional is Vandy? If a school places most of it's graduates in a particular market (New York), isn't that market within the school's region?

Definitely. But does Vandy place most of its graduates in New York? Here's the ABA 2015 form:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2015-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Vandy had 185 gradautes, 21 of whom reported being employed in the state of New York. I'm not sure what the definition of "most" is in the South, but I'd have to think that 10% - 15% doesn't qualify.


Absolutely. Nobody can probably give a definite answer but seeing that NY is consistently within the top 2 markets that Vandy places students into, and considering what a bunch of people (such as GHH-T) seem to imply, is that most vandy students are hoping to land a diverse list of markets (TN, TX, DC, CA, ATL, etc.)

Yes, while we can safely assume that most students going into Fordham are gunning for NYC biglaw (and most of them won't get it), it's also possible that only 20% of Vandy students are gunning for NYC Biglaw and maybe MOST of them are getting it. Like I said, just because a school has low placement into NYC, we can't necessarily assume the chances of someone getting NYC is also low since...many students might not even want NYC in the first place.

Example: (I know this is extreme bc Vandy is not CLS) If someone wanted to do DC Biglaw, would you advise that person to go to GW over CLS just because GW places more students into DC?

Like I said, you're not wrong....it's just very hard to answer this question with much certainty.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby trebekismyhero » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:15 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While I agree mostly with what you said, how regional is Vandy? If a school places most of it's graduates in a particular market (New York), isn't that market within the school's region?

Definitely. But does Vandy place most of its graduates in New York? Here's the ABA 2015 form:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2015-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Vandy had 185 gradautes, 21 of whom reported being employed in the state of New York. I'm not sure what the definition of "most" is in the South, but I'd have to think that 10% - 15% doesn't qualify.


Absolutely. Nobody can probably give a definite answer but seeing that NY is consistently within the top 2 markets that Vandy places students into, and considering what a bunch of people (such as GHH-T) seem to imply, is that most vandy students are hoping to land a diverse list of markets (TN, TX, DC, CA, ATL, etc.)

Yes, while we can safely assume that most students going into Fordham are gunning for NYC biglaw (and most of them won't get it), it's also possible that only 20% of Vandy students are gunning for NYC Biglaw and maybe MOST of them are getting it. Like I said, just because a school has low placement into NYC, we can't necessarily assume the chances of someone getting NYC is also low since...many students might not even want NYC in the first place.

Example: (I know this is extreme bc Vandy is not CLS) If someone wanted to do DC Biglaw, would you advise that person to go to GW over CLS just because GW places more students into DC?


Like rpupkin said and you seem to know, it really doesn't matter. You need good grades from Vandy so the idea that most students that want NYC from there get it is probably false. I am sure there were more students who would've loved to go to a top firm in NYC, but they didn't have the grades. Is there probably a little more leeway in grades that firms in NYC will allow compared to fordham? Possibly, but that's really the only question that is relevant.

If you are below median at Vandy, the likelihood of you getting NYC big law is pretty small. You likely need to be top 1/3

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:19 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:While I agree mostly with what you said, how regional is Vandy? If a school places most of it's graduates in a particular market (New York), isn't that market within the school's region?

Definitely. But does Vandy place most of its graduates in New York? Here's the ABA 2015 form:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/2015-EmploymentSummary.pdf

Vandy had 185 gradautes, 21 of whom reported being employed in the state of New York. I'm not sure what the definition of "most" is in the South, but I'd have to think that 10% - 15% doesn't qualify.


Absolutely. Nobody can probably give a definite answer but seeing that NY is consistently within the top 2 markets that Vandy places students into, and considering what a bunch of people (such as GHH-T) seem to imply, is that most vandy students are hoping to land a diverse list of markets (TN, TX, DC, CA, ATL, etc.)

Yes, while we can safely assume that most students going into Fordham are gunning for NYC biglaw (and most of them won't get it), it's also possible that only 20% of Vandy students are gunning for NYC Biglaw and maybe MOST of them are getting it. Like I said, just because a school has low placement into NYC, we can't necessarily assume the chances of someone getting NYC is also low since...many students might not even want NYC in the first place.

Example: (I know this is extreme bc Vandy is not CLS) If someone wanted to do DC Biglaw, would you advise that person to go to GW over CLS just because GW places more students into DC?


Like rpupkin said and you seem to know, it really doesn't matter. You need good grades from Vandy so the idea that most students that want NYC from there get it is probably false. I am sure there were more students who would've loved to go to a top firm in NYC, but they didn't have the grades. Is there probably a little more leeway in grades that firms in NYC will allow compared to fordham? Possibly, but that's really the only question that is relevant.

If you are below median at Vandy, the likelihood of you getting NYC big law is pretty small. You likely need to be top 1/3


Definitely!

I was just wondering if VLS over Fordham was the right call because I obviously know that there are better options out there for NYC Biglaw over Vandy. Should I have gotten in to HLS/CLS/NYU to put myself in a better situation? Of course.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:54 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I was just wondering if VLS over Fordham was the right call because I obviously know that there are better options out there for NYC Biglaw over Vandy. Should I have gotten in to HLS/CLS/NYU to put myself in a better situation? Of course.

Look, if you told me that you were "NYC big law or bust, and my options are Fordham or Vandy," I would tell you to retake/reapply or not go to law school. But now, after having already made the questionable decision to attend one of these schools, you're basically asking us to assure you that your specific choice was less bad than the other choice. This is pointless. You made your decision. Now move on and do your best at Vandy.

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:18 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I was just wondering if VLS over Fordham was the right call because I obviously know that there are better options out there for NYC Biglaw over Vandy. Should I have gotten in to HLS/CLS/NYU to put myself in a better situation? Of course.

Look, if you told me that you were "NYC big law or bust, and my options are Fordham or Vandy," I would tell you to retake/reapply or not go to law school. But now, after having already made the questionable decision to attend one of these schools, you're basically asking us to assure you that your specific choice was less bad than the other choice. This is pointless. You made your decision. Now move on and do your best at Vandy.


Haha understood, I'll be sure to quote you whenever somebody wants to go to NYC BL out of anywhere outside of the T13, and I tell them "just don't go to law school." Thanks for your input, moving on now!

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Re: Can work experience help overcome effects of going to a school in a different market?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:29 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I was just wondering if VLS over Fordham was the right call because I obviously know that there are better options out there for NYC Biglaw over Vandy. Should I have gotten in to HLS/CLS/NYU to put myself in a better situation? Of course.

Look, if you told me that you were "NYC big law or bust, and my options are Fordham or Vandy," I would tell you to retake/reapply or not go to law school. But now, after having already made the questionable decision to attend one of these schools, you're basically asking us to assure you that your specific choice was less bad than the other choice. This is pointless. You made your decision. Now move on and do your best at Vandy.


Haha understood, I'll be sure to quote you whenever somebody wants to go to NYC BL out of anywhere outside of the T13, and I tell them "just don't go to law school." Thanks for your input, moving on now!

I sincerely wish you good luck at Vandy. I hope you do well and get that NYC big law job. My only advice is that you think about other options (which could include non-big-law gigs in York).




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