Choosing HLS over YLS?

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hammy393
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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby hammy393 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:28 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:
dirac wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Yale has ~20% of admits who go elsewhere IIRC, meaning they pick places like HLS, SLS, Chicago, etc. over YLS. Considering you don't want academia and can't clerk, the majority of Yale's advantage is effectively neutralized.

Is this true? I'm not a PI person, but my impression is that YLS is better than HLS for PI—for the same reasons that YLS is better than HLS for clerkships and academia: smaller class sizes and better faculty connections increase one's opportunities.


I agree with this impression. YLS students have far less competition and are guaranteed good recommendations from professors given the writing requirements and small groups. But OP's PI interest seems to be related to policy work, something open to international students. That is a very unicorn kind of job, something else YLS excels at. Also, quite a few of those 20% of admits decide to go to another kind of graduate school, and the lion's share of the leftovers choose full-rides (absolutely the best option for someone wanting NY biglaw). For at least the last few years, only ~5 each year choose HLS over YLS. So I have a hard time believing that one poster has quite a few friends who chose HLS over YLS (though I believe they have quite a few friends who say they did so). HLS is a great school, and one would not be dumb to choose it. I really am a big fan of the school, and have a lot of friends there. But let's not pretend YLS's only advantages lie in academia and clerkships, the much smaller class helps it in every field.

Tinman is also wrong on a lot of levels. I'm guessing he's a transfer student here, which makes sense why he doesn't know. Yale is a very small class, with the 1L class all knowing one another by the end of the first year. Because of that, friendships have typically been formed already. A transfer student would be very much out of the loop, and we only accept a small handful of transfers each year, which means they can't as easily band together like they can elsewhere. Now, I'm sure if a transfer was very proactive in their friendship making, they could immerse themselves easier (though I don't know an HLS transfer, and I know everyone). I don't believe HLS has a better social network at all, as it would be impossible to get to know all of their 749,432 students. And I go out 4-5 nights a week, and typically have a fully booked lunch schedule for 2-3 weeks at any given time. We have a lot of socializing and parties. Meanwhile, my friends at HLS are much more stressed out, and work long hours in the library (something not required at YLS).

I'll probably concede on the dating point. Harvard at the end of the day is huge, and even though most are probably married or in committed relationships, that still leaves a sizable dating pool. But you would be dating a Harvard student... And I would not decide a law school based on dating prospects, since it's very likely you could choose a school that's objectively a worse choice for your career goals, and then not meet anyone worth settling down with.


I completely understand that for folks studying at YLS (especially those who turned down HLS), it is very hard to believe an insignificant number of students turned down YLS over HLS. But it is true. I am an international students and have both international friends and American friends. The friends of mine who turned down YLS to come to HLS are mainly international students and four of them (one is native American) are as below:

1. CLASS of 2019, coming to HLS after finishing MIT PhD
2. CLASS of 2018, Stanford undergraduate who did a couple of years financial work at Wall street before coming to HLS
3. CLASS of 2017, doing PhD in Economics at Yale while studying at HLS (going to work in the Federal Reserve)
4. CLASS of 2016, Upenn undergraduate straight through (went to a law firm in Silicon Valley)

I have the consent of all the four people to share the above information. I admit that for those who want to go into academia or clerk, YLS has an obvious edge over HLS. However, for students are more interested in corporate work, Harvard's alumni network is very attractive (especially those who want to work overseas). For many of those who want to work in government, HLS is also as attractive as YLS.


Where did I say no one did so? I'll believe you about this friend you have in each class. I've seen the actual admissions statistics here. Typically, they admit around 250 students, not counting deferrals, since they're a wash. 15-20 will choose not to attend any law school that year. 10-15 will take a scholarship elsewhere. Around 10 will go to Stanford (usually Californians who want to work in California), and around 5 will go to Harvard. And the class at YLS will be between 200-210 students. Those are simple statistics. When only 40 students are not going to attend YLS for ANY reason (and our site, which is browsed by virtually all applicants, always recommends taking the full-ride), you can't have a lot of students choosing Harvard. So, your friends can all be telling the truth, but at the end of the day, that's still relatively insignificant.


You're pretty spot on re: YLS admits who choose not to go to YLS. A couple of my friends who got into YLS are considering it against a full ride, three others will likely go to Stanford (they're Californians who want to work in CA), and one is considering HLS. At Stanford I also met several current students who chose it over YLS, and most were Californians.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Coach4501 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:46 am

Feel free to PM me. I got into both schools and chose HLS. I do think there are only a few of us who did this and I'd guess I know almost everyone in that camp. Most law students/lawyers are risk averse people. I'm always surprised by how many people at HLS say "I didn't even apply to YLS"—and these are people who want to clerk. The truth is grades simply matter more at HLS than YLS; that's a reality I accepted when I decided to come here. Keep in mind that at YLS you won't have grades your first semester and each school's on campus interviews—where most people secure employment—only consider the first year of grades. Moreover, there's fewer candidates you'll be compared to coming from YLS, which theoretically should make it a good deal easier to get an offer at very selective firms. That's made me question the decision at times.

BUT, if you're not looking to do appellate litigation/judge/be an academic (paths where prestige is especially important throughout a career), I think the difference is pretty marginal based on what employers have told me. Not sure what you mean by public interest (public defender? prosecutor? state department? policy? media?). If you have a good sense of what a PI career will look like, that'd be helpful to know. But if you aren't sure, I'd buck the trend and go with HLS. Many people will choose a law school/job based on what they hear is "better." And there's nothing really wrong with that. Conventional wisdom is conventional for a reason. But at HLS you'll get more exposure to different career options. On any given day you might have 8 different lunch events to choose from where speakers will be addressing vastly different topics in legal practice. For me, someone unsure about what I want to do, that was huge.

+I'd say Cambridge > New Haven. And the people I met at HLS ASW were people I clicked with more.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby shadowfax » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:09 am

Coach4501 wrote:Feel free to PM me. I got into both schools and chose HLS. I do think there are only a few of us who did this and I'd guess I know almost everyone in that camp. Most law students/lawyers are risk averse people. I'm always surprised by how many people at HLS say "I didn't even apply to YLS"—and these are people who want to clerk. The truth is grades simply matter more at HLS than YLS; that's a reality I accepted when I decided to come here. Keep in mind that at YLS you won't have grades your first semester and each school's on campus interviews—where most people secure employment—only consider the first year of grades. Moreover, there's fewer candidates you'll be compared to coming from YLS, which theoretically should make it a good deal easier to get an offer at very selective firms. That's made me question the decision at times.

BUT, if you're not looking to do appellate litigation/judge/be an academic (paths where prestige is especially important throughout a career), I think the difference is pretty marginal based on what employers have told me. Not sure what you mean by public interest (public defender? prosecutor? state department? policy? media?). If you have a good sense of what a PI career will look like, that'd be helpful to know. But if you aren't sure, I'd buck the trend and go with HLS. Many people will choose a law school/job based on what they hear is "better." And there's nothing really wrong with that. Conventional wisdom is conventional for a reason. But at HLS you'll get more exposure to different career options. On any given day you might have 8 different lunch events to choose from where speakers will be addressing vastly different topics in legal practice. For me, someone unsure about what I want to do, that was huge.

+I'd say Cambridge > New Haven. And the people I met at HLS ASW were people I clicked with more.


Excellent post. Mirrors a lot of my experience.

One of the deciding factors for me was the way each school seemed to view my work experience. I wasn't saving the world to be sure (I'll do that later) but I did have a financial job that was statistically harder to get that admission into any law school (certainly based on very different criteria). Harvard welcomed my experience and felt that it would help prepare me for whatever career path I ultimately chose. And in this day and age that could be a number of them (both voluntary and un) by the time it is all done. A number of people at Yale admonished me not to let it be known that I had worked on the street. Some sort of an odd view of letting it appear you had any interest in undertaking financial success, every though many Yale Law grads have enjoyed enormous financial success.

One more thing to consider if you have any thought now or later about pursuing a joint degree. Many of the other Harvard grad schools, and in particular the business school, are stronger.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:11 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Excellent post. Mirrors a lot of my experience.

One of the deciding factors for me was the way each school seemed to view my work experience. I wasn't saving the world to be sure (I'll do that later) but I did have a financial job that was statistically harder to get that admission into any law school (certainly based on very different criteria). Harvard welcomed my experience and felt that it would help prepare me for whatever career path I ultimately chose. And in this day and age that could be a number of them (both voluntary and un) by the time it is all done. A number of people at Yale admonished me not to let it be known that I had worked on the street. Some sort of an odd view of letting it appear you had any interest in undertaking financial success, every though many Yale Law grads have enjoyed enormous financial success.

One more thing to consider if you have any thought now or later about pursuing a joint degree. Many of the other Harvard grad schools, and in particular the business school, are stronger.


From the perspective of someone who didn't go to either but by now has friends coming from both, there sure seems to be a personality difference between those who choose Harvard and those who choose Yale. The bolded provides a good illustration.

I'll show myself out... :mrgreen:

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby landshoes » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:19 pm

Mr. Blackacre wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
Excellent post. Mirrors a lot of my experience.

One of the deciding factors for me was the way each school seemed to view my work experience. I wasn't saving the world to be sure (I'll do that later) but I did have a financial job that was statistically harder to get that admission into any law school (certainly based on very different criteria). Harvard welcomed my experience and felt that it would help prepare me for whatever career path I ultimately chose. And in this day and age that could be a number of them (both voluntary and un) by the time it is all done. A number of people at Yale admonished me not to let it be known that I had worked on the street. Some sort of an odd view of letting it appear you had any interest in undertaking financial success, every though many Yale Law grads have enjoyed enormous financial success.

One more thing to consider if you have any thought now or later about pursuing a joint degree. Many of the other Harvard grad schools, and in particular the business school, are stronger.


From the perspective of someone who didn't go to either but by now has friends coming from both, there sure seems to be a personality difference between those who choose Harvard and those who choose Yale. The bolded provides a good illustration.

I'll show myself out... :mrgreen:


TBH I associate YLS with rich kids who don't have to work. I think the comments in this thread about how some people like to learn (ew I guess?) or about how you might have to (gasp) be in the library if you go to HLS to be really instructive as well.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby hlsperson123 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:24 pm

Coach4501 wrote:I'm always surprised by how many people at HLS say "I didn't even apply to YLS"—and these are people who want to clerk.


I go to HLS too and I am one of those people. I think it would be really surprising to those in the TLS mindset how many HLS students didn't even consider applying to YLS. But it makes sense. Personally, I had a specialized skill set coming in to law school, and I knew the area of law I wanted to practice in after I graduated. YLS has zero professors in that area of law, and HLS has multiple. At HLS I could find a critical mass of other students who were also interested in that niche area, something I doubt I could have found at YLS due to (a) the smaller; and (b) more homogeneous (in terms of interests) student body. And there's at least a dozen other niche areas in which HLS has a depth of expertise that YLS does not. For students interested in any of those areas, HLS is a far superior choice to YLS.

Oh and by the way I am clerking on a COA. But I didn't make my decision (nor should anyone) to maximize my chance of clerking.

Coach4501 wrote:BUT, if you're not looking to do appellate litigation/judge/be an academic (paths where prestige is especially important throughout a career), I think the difference is pretty marginal based on what employers have told me.


I actually disagree with your point about academia UNLESS you want to go into a field of academia that Yale is strong in (e.g., con law). If you want to be an academic in, for example, health law, Petrie-Flom and HLS will give you far better opportunities for collaboration and publication.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby T3TON » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:18 am

hlsperson123 wrote:
Coach4501 wrote:I'm always surprised by how many people at HLS say "I didn't even apply to YLS"—and these are people who want to clerk.


I go to HLS too and I am one of those people. I think it would be really surprising to those in the TLS mindset how many HLS students didn't even consider applying to YLS. But it makes sense. Personally, I had a specialized skill set coming in to law school, and I knew the area of law I wanted to practice in after I graduated. YLS has zero professors in that area of law, and HLS has multiple. At HLS I could find a critical mass of other students who were also interested in that niche area, something I doubt I could have found at YLS due to (a) the smaller; and (b) more homogeneous (in terms of interests) student body. And there's at least a dozen other niche areas in which HLS has a depth of expertise that YLS does not. For students interested in any of those areas, HLS is a far superior choice to YLS.

Oh and by the way I am clerking on a COA. But I didn't make my decision (nor should anyone) to maximize my chance of clerking.

Coach4501 wrote:BUT, if you're not looking to do appellate litigation/judge/be an academic (paths where prestige is especially important throughout a career), I think the difference is pretty marginal based on what employers have told me.


I actually disagree with your point about academia UNLESS you want to go into a field of academia that Yale is strong in (e.g., con law). If you want to be an academic in, for example, health law, Petrie-Flom and HLS will give you far better opportunities for collaboration and publication.


Plenty of jobs require appellate clerkships. Yale has nearly twice the federal clerkship rate. It isnt the silliest thing to base a decision on.

For academia niche faculty does matter. But overall Yale churns out substantially more academics (per capita and as compared to the number of applicants). Some of this owes to Yale's curriculum and structure, some to its reputation and some to its clerkship numbers.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby KissMyAxe » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:57 am

hlsperson123 wrote:
Coach4501 wrote:I'm always surprised by how many people at HLS say "I didn't even apply to YLS"—and these are people who want to clerk.


I go to HLS too and I am one of those people. I think it would be really surprising to those in the TLS mindset how many HLS students didn't even consider applying to YLS. But it makes sense. Personally, I had a specialized skill set coming in to law school, and I knew the area of law I wanted to practice in after I graduated. YLS has zero professors in that area of law, and HLS has multiple. At HLS I could find a critical mass of other students who were also interested in that niche area, something I doubt I could have found at YLS due to (a) the smaller; and (b) more homogeneous (in terms of interests) student body. And there's at least a dozen other niche areas in which HLS has a depth of expertise that YLS does not. For students interested in any of those areas, HLS is a far superior choice to YLS.

Oh and by the way I am clerking on a COA. But I didn't make my decision (nor should anyone) to maximize my chance of clerking.

Coach4501 wrote:BUT, if you're not looking to do appellate litigation/judge/be an academic (paths where prestige is especially important throughout a career), I think the difference is pretty marginal based on what employers have told me.


I actually disagree with your point about academia UNLESS you want to go into a field of academia that Yale is strong in (e.g., con law). If you want to be an academic in, for example, health law, Petrie-Flom and HLS will give you far better opportunities for collaboration and publication.



So I agree with most of what coach said, but I think most of your stuff is absurd. First of all, we were talking about personality differences at the same school. If you guys talk about admissions enough to have heard from many HLS students that they didn't apply to YLS, that's really sad. I've never discussed who applied where/got in where outside of ASW and orientation. But the fact that you both know people who say they didn't even apply to YLS confirms something I've heard from friends there. The fact is, students at HYS have typically always been successful at everything they did. Most went to good private schools, went to top undergrads, maybe spent a year or two working on Wall Street or at Oxbridge. These people are used to success, and see anything that deviates from that norm as a failure. It would be hard for people to admit they were rejected at either of the other two (It's the same here, I'm sure I have classmates who were rejected by the one of HS). I think this is the same as what you said a while ago here. More than 1% of your students do have LP's, but you've never seen someone admit it, because to these super over-achievers, that's admitting failure and showing weakness. I don't think you can possibly know if they're telling the truth or not, though I am extremely skeptical. From the very little I know, I've never met a classmate who didn't apply to Harvard as well. You're not going to convince that there's this fundamental difference in the classes' philosophies (though I will concede that there are students with high numbers but literally no softs that do not apply to YLS because they feel they cannot get in - but that's not a typical applicant). Students who feel they have a shot at admission (which is most HLS students), do apply to all of HYS.

I think you're putting too much stock into professors' specialties. You sound like one of the applicants on TLS who talk about going to some school with a good specialization program. I'm not debating that your school has a more varied faculty. There are fundamentally different philosophies of the schools when it comes to faculty hiring. Harvard wants to cover as many subjects as possible, and when someone retires, they try to replace them with an available scholar in that area of law. Yale simply wants the best available professor, no matter their specialization. That's why they have like 7 of the top 10 Con Law professors in the world (You guys still have Tribe and I think Chemirinsky's still puttering around somewhere), and holes in other subjects. But do these holes translate to anything meaningful employment-wise? Hell no. Employers are always going to hire based on the school themselves and the grades there. Yale still wins in both of these factors. I'm glad it has worked out well for you (though it's super weird to volunteer that you have a COA clerkship when no one asked - especially since like 50% of YLS students will do the same at some point). Of course a top student at HLS will have career opportunities. I'm definitely not disputing that. So congratulations. But no matter your field of interest, a median student at Yale will win out against a median student at Harvard, for reasons already given in this thread. And that's what applicants should be considering.

Also, the fact that you think YLS is more homogenous shows your ignorance. YLS's specialty at unicorn jobs mean their students go into a wider range of fields than anyone, many leaving law entirely. Harvard no doubt has people of varied interests, but at the end of the day, most of your class are still going into firms. It's a biglaw factory.

Finally, you're obviously not interested in academia given you listed health law, something YLS is actually strong at, so I don't fault you for being wrong on the last paragraph, but you are. Yale gives you more resources than any other school to succeed in academia. You are forced to write two long papers you can prepare for publication if you so want. Our faculty is insanely well-connected. We have students constantly coauthoring or researching pieces alongside professors outside of the law school. In fact, my friend just did a lot of work with Tribe. Yale's choose your adventure style of academics allows students to focus all their efforts on any subject they want. And its connections can let you work with any scholar you want, if you find that important. Also, there are always certain factors that are going to be pluses to an academic application, like clerkships and law journal membership, both of which are easier at YLS than at HLS. And you're trying to say the fact that you have a scholar in international basket weaving law is going to win against that? Give me a break.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby lawlorbust » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:56 am

KissMyAxe wrote:I think you're putting too much stock into professors' specialties. You sound like one of the applicants on TLS who talk about going to some school with a good specialization program. I'm not debating that your school has a more varied faculty. There are fundamentally different philosophies of the schools when it comes to faculty hiring. Harvard wants to cover as many subjects as possible, and when someone retires, they try to replace them with an available scholar in that area of law. Yale simply wants the best available professor, no matter their specialization. That's why they have like 7 of the top 10 Con Law professors in the world (You guys still have Tribe and I think Chemirinsky's still puttering around somewhere), and holes in other subjects. But do these holes translate to anything meaningful employment-wise? Hell no. Employers are always going to hire based on the school themselves and the grades there. Yale still wins in both of these factors. I'm glad it has worked out well for you (though it's super weird to volunteer that you have a COA clerkship when no one asked - especially since like 50% of YLS students will do the same at some point). Of course a top student at HLS will have career opportunities. I'm definitely not disputing that. So congratulations. But no matter your field of interest, a median student at Yale will win out against a median student at Harvard, for reasons already given in this thread. And that's what applicants should be considering.


I thought your cases was strong enough not to have to start making shit up and going full-on homer . . .

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby SamuelDanforth » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:32 am

Please don't think this thread is representative of the personalities of YLS students! We're mostly low-key and nice!

HLS and YLS are both great schools. If you loved HLS, and didn't love YLS, then go to HLS. If you come to YLS only because people told you that there was no real choice, despite the fact that you prefered HLS, you will be set-up for unhappiness.

I loved the people I met at Yale's ASW, the fact that I wouldn't have to compete with hundreds of other students for the attention of certain faculty, and the grading system. But Cambridge is a fabulous city, there are tremendously smart and interesting students at HLS, and a world class faculty. If you're Canadian, and you plan to return to Canada, HLS may be an objectively better choice regardless (I can't speak to YLS v. HLS in the Canadian legal market).

So think about the pros and cons of each school, and then go with what feels right. You're choosing between two of top law schools in the country, and no matter what happens, you'll be fine.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby WinterComing » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:56 am

eck456 wrote: One thing to consider with yale is the quantity of post-graduation public interest fellowships for PI people, which I believe is larger than the equivalent at H/S (although this is according to the friend, not my own research).


This comment sort of got lost in the shuffle of discussions about dating and people being jerks to each other (welcome to TLS!), but if you're really dedicated to doing PI work, you would be wise to consider the availability of fellowships at Yale in your decision. Yale comes pretty close to giving a fellowship to every student who wants one (and it's considered controversial here when any student who wants a fellowship doesn't get one). That's a level of public interest support that isn't available at any other school. (Of course, there are also outside fellowships like Skadden available, though they are far more competitive.)

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:38 am

WinterComing wrote:
eck456 wrote: One thing to consider with yale is the quantity of post-graduation public interest fellowships for PI people, which I believe is larger than the equivalent at H/S (although this is according to the friend, not my own research).


This comment sort of got lost in the shuffle of discussions about dating and people being jerks to each other (welcome to TLS!), but if you're really dedicated to doing PI work, you would be wise to consider the availability of fellowships at Yale in your decision. Yale comes pretty close to giving a fellowship to every student who wants one (and it's considered controversial here when any student who wants a fellowship doesn't get one). That's a level of public interest support that isn't available at any other school. (Of course, there are also outside fellowships like Skadden available, though they are far more competitive.)

CLS has fellowships for anyone who wants one. Same at Berkeley

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Monday » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:48 am

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Last edited by Monday on Thu May 11, 2017 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby WinterComing » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:11 pm

Nebby wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
eck456 wrote: One thing to consider with yale is the quantity of post-graduation public interest fellowships for PI people, which I believe is larger than the equivalent at H/S (although this is according to the friend, not my own research).


This comment sort of got lost in the shuffle of discussions about dating and people being jerks to each other (welcome to TLS!), but if you're really dedicated to doing PI work, you would be wise to consider the availability of fellowships at Yale in your decision. Yale comes pretty close to giving a fellowship to every student who wants one (and it's considered controversial here when any student who wants a fellowship doesn't get one). That's a level of public interest support that isn't available at any other school. (Of course, there are also outside fellowships like Skadden available, though they are far more competitive.)

CLS has fellowships for anyone who wants one. Same at Berkeley


Monday wrote:H/S does too, at least according to their respective PI offices (SLS even has a 2-year fellowship). Yale is not unique in this.


I probably could have been more clear in my wording, and I suppose it's also possible that the information we've been given here just isn't true. The line from YLS is that they fund "three times as many fellowships per capita as our peer schools." They award roughly 30 fellowships worth about $1.5 million each year. If you guys have comparable numbers to show for the other schools, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong and OP would probably be interested to learn as well.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:24 pm

WinterComing wrote:
Nebby wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
eck456 wrote: One thing to consider with yale is the quantity of post-graduation public interest fellowships for PI people, which I believe is larger than the equivalent at H/S (although this is according to the friend, not my own research).


This comment sort of got lost in the shuffle of discussions about dating and people being jerks to each other (welcome to TLS!), but if you're really dedicated to doing PI work, you would be wise to consider the availability of fellowships at Yale in your decision. Yale comes pretty close to giving a fellowship to every student who wants one (and it's considered controversial here when any student who wants a fellowship doesn't get one). That's a level of public interest support that isn't available at any other school. (Of course, there are also outside fellowships like Skadden available, though they are far more competitive.)

CLS has fellowships for anyone who wants one. Same at Berkeley


Monday wrote:H/S does too, at least according to their respective PI offices (SLS even has a 2-year fellowship). Yale is not unique in this.


I probably could have been more clear in my wording, and I suppose it's also possible that the information we've been given here just isn't true. The line from YLS is that they fund "three times as many fellowships per capita as our peer schools." They award roughly 30 fellowships worth about $1.5 million each year. If you guys have comparable numbers to show for the other schools, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong and OP would probably be interested to learn as well.

Yale's is $50k.

Berkeley offers a one-year post-grad fellowship of $50k to anyone (Berkeley Law Bridge and Public Interest Fellowships), which is the same as Yale. CLS does (Postgraduate Social Justice and Government Fellowship), but it's only a paltry $30k (only there are about 5 to 8 that are $50k). Schools keep the actual amounts out of public view. I know Berkeley's because a fellow associate attorney I work with is here on a Berkeley school funded one, and I know CLS' because I went there. NYU has a similar one that is open to anyone (NYU Public Interest Project Fellowship), but I do not know the actual amount. Harvard's is comparable to Yale's.

Yale is not unique nor are they ahead of the curve in this regard.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Monday » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:33 pm

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Nebby » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:44 pm

I also want to know how they came up with that statement when a lot of school's public interest fellowships don't make their amounts publically available

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lavarman84
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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby lavarman84 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:49 am

KissMyAxe wrote:I don't believe HLS has a better social network at all, as it would be impossible to get to know all of their 749,432 students. And I go out 4-5 nights a week, and typically have a fully booked lunch schedule for 2-3 weeks at any given time. We have a lot of socializing and parties. Meanwhile, my friends at HLS are much more stressed out, and work long hours in the library (something not required at YLS).


Is this normal at Yale? I didn't realize people booked lunch with their friends weeks in advance in law school. :?

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:59 am

KissMyAxe is usually very insightful on these fora but I think he went a little overboard here.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby Monday » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:06 am

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Last edited by Monday on Thu May 11, 2017 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KissMyAxe
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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby KissMyAxe » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:57 am

lawman84 wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:I don't believe HLS has a better social network at all, as it would be impossible to get to know all of their 749,432 students. And I go out 4-5 nights a week, and typically have a fully booked lunch schedule for 2-3 weeks at any given time. We have a lot of socializing and parties. Meanwhile, my friends at HLS are much more stressed out, and work long hours in the library (something not required at YLS).


Is this normal at Yale? I didn't realize people booked lunch with their friends weeks in advance in law school. :?


I would not say it's normal, but I think it depends on the person. I'm involved in a lot of stuff, so if I want to work in lunches with friends, I have to schedule a couple weeks out to make sure nothing will conflict. I wouldn't recommend people be as involved as I am.

And yeah, Bagel, I probably did use some hyperbole here. As I said, I think Coach is pretty much right. But I pretty much stand by a lot of what I said, though I could have said it nicer. But I do think what I said about the top Con Law professors is arguably accurate. According to Lieter's list of most cited scholars, William Eskridge, Akhil Amar, Bruce Ackerman, Jack Balkin, and Robert Post are all in the top 10. Reva Siegel is #12. If you add Guido Calabresi, who makes forays into Con Law, I think it's a defensible position. However, it is a major flaw that YLS has no moderate or conservative public law professors, and HLS has far more ideological diversity.

And I spoke to Tinman, it made a lot of sense that he would be a transfer student, as that could be the experience of many of them. But I accept that other students can have wildly different experiences.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby hlsperson123 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Monday wrote:Even going so far as to strangely say tinman was probably a transfer student just because they had a different experience.


I'm not going to post a full rebuttal to KissMyAxe because I think any student choosing between HLS and YLS can separate the (limited) facts from the (omnipresent) bluster in that post. But I will say that my favorite part of his reply was when he suggested, regarding some of my closest friends, that I couldn't "possibly know if they're telling the truth or not" as to whether they applied to Yale because they don't want to "admit[] failure and show[] weakness." Thanks buddy for that next-level TLS pop psychology.

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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby hijinks578 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:28 pm

I'm an HLS student, and to echo the above posts, this is a personal decision, you should go where your gut tells you, and your happiness matters most.

I do think one thing that you should reckon frankly with is how much prestige matters to you. I know TLS spews a lot of hate towards naked prestige-whoring, but let's just bracket the values discussion about the merits or disease of prestige, so can you frankly weigh the prestige factor for yourself (and only yourself.)

The major difference between Yale and Harvard is prestige, and a very particular sort. When people say that Yale has an edge in academia and federal clerkships, that's code for Yale is the first step on a particular fetishized elite law path. The path is: COA clerkship, for a small few SCOTUS clerkships, and then the revolving door of jobs at the most prestigious legal institutions (top law schools, top gov’t posts like SG or OLC, tiptop law firms which are not just BigLaw but specialty shops, or tiptop practices like appellate law).

You can do all of the above in spades coming out of Harvard, if you decide that it’s what you want, you work to get the best grades, and connect with certain professor gatekeepers.

But Yale makes this "elite" path easier. From friends who go there, both those who love and hate Yale, the school’s culture, mentorship, and network seem strongly geared toward making accessible this elite path. The school is teensy, and the emphasis is on faculty relationships and not so much grades as the screening devices for opportunities. (Of course, you can pursue your own unique interests, but this culture is omnipresent.)

I'm being crass and blunt about the prestige factor because it is the main slight difference (and depending on your view, cost) of Harvard compared to Yale. I think it's worth frankly considering now, because generally people who are driven enough to get into both Yale and Harvard will face the question in law school of how much they want to gun for "prestige outcomes" (jumping as high as what a given profession or culture has defined as elite.)

If you don’t care, or even if you do but think the culture or approach at Yale wouldn’t work for you, then there’s really not much difference between Harvard and Yale, for outcomes.

My advice is be honest with yourself. Perhaps you bristle at all of this, think it’s absolutely nuts, and want nothing to do with it. Or perhaps prestige factors matter a lot to you, whether for your pride, preservation of optionality, risk tolerance, or any other subjective reasons. I really don’t think there’s a normatively best way to weigh prestige in your decision-making, because it’s so personal.

I make no comment at all on the other hugely important considerations for your decision. Good luck, and you won’t go wrong!

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WinterComing
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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby WinterComing » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:01 pm

Nebby wrote:I also want to know how they came up with that statement when a lot of school's public interest fellowships don't make their amounts publically available


One thing to recognize here, and I think this is ridiculous, but when Yale says "peer school," it has two schools in mind, and Columbia and Berkley are not among them. Again, I don't condone that elitism, so don't shoot the messenger, but that's just the way it is.

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WinterComing
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Re: Choosing HLS over YLS?

Postby WinterComing » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:05 pm

hijinks578 wrote:I'm an HLS student, and to echo the above posts, this is a personal decision, you should go where your gut tells you, and your happiness matters most.

I do think one thing that you should reckon frankly with is how much prestige matters to you. I know TLS spews a lot of hate towards naked prestige-whoring, but let's just bracket the values discussion about the merits or disease of prestige, so can you frankly weigh the prestige factor for yourself (and only yourself.)

The major difference between Yale and Harvard is prestige, and a very particular sort. When people say that Yale has an edge in academia and federal clerkships, that's code for Yale is the first step on a particular fetishized elite law path. The path is: COA clerkship, for a small few SCOTUS clerkships, and then the revolving door of jobs at the most prestigious legal institutions (top law schools, top gov’t posts like SG or OLC, tiptop law firms which are not just BigLaw but specialty shops, or tiptop practices like appellate law).

You can do all of the above in spades coming out of Harvard, if you decide that it’s what you want, you work to get the best grades, and connect with certain professor gatekeepers.

But Yale makes this "elite" path easier. From friends who go there, both those who love and hate Yale, the school’s culture, mentorship, and network seem strongly geared toward making accessible this elite path. The school is teensy, and the emphasis is on faculty relationships and not so much grades as the screening devices for opportunities. (Of course, you can pursue your own unique interests, but this culture is omnipresent.)

I'm being crass and blunt about the prestige factor because it is the main slight difference (and depending on your view, cost) of Harvard compared to Yale. I think it's worth frankly considering now, because generally people who are driven enough to get into both Yale and Harvard will face the question in law school of how much they want to gun for "prestige outcomes" (jumping as high as what a given profession or culture has defined as elite.)

If you don’t care, or even if you do but think the culture or approach at Yale wouldn’t work for you, then there’s really not much difference between Harvard and Yale, for outcomes.

My advice is be honest with yourself. Perhaps you bristle at all of this, think it’s absolutely nuts, and want nothing to do with it. Or perhaps prestige factors matter a lot to you, whether for your pride, preservation of optionality, risk tolerance, or any other subjective reasons. I really don’t think there’s a normatively best way to weigh prestige in your decision-making, because it’s so personal.

I make no comment at all on the other hugely important considerations for your decision. Good luck, and you won’t go wrong!


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