Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

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PRinNYC
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Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:04 pm

-The schools you are considering: Harvard and Stanford

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:

No difference

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings:

Unfortunately, I don't qualify for any need based aid but my family will be providing significant support. In either case, I would be borrowing no more than 75-100k for the entire degree.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties:

I'm from New York and I'm not opposed to working in the city after law school. My dream, though, is to end up working internationally- preferably in an overseas office of one of the big law firms.

-Your general career goals:
Really (and perhaps naively) interested in international m&a work. Other transactional stuff appeals as well.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers:172/3.96

-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 2


I know this is a common thread topic, but I'd really appreciate any insight you have to give.

Both are obviously great options and I'm so thrilled to have this choice to make.

Ultimately, I think the choice for me will come down to fit and where I want to live the next three years of my life. I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking any important differences between the two that might make this choice a bit more straightforward.

Does either school have a slight edge in terms of employment prospects/ quality of education/ quality of life?

cavalier1138
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:06 pm

Did you happen to get any scholarship offers at CCN?

There's no appreciable difference between these two schools, but there's no appreciable difference in biglaw outcomes between HYS and CCN.

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trebekismyhero
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby trebekismyhero » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:07 pm

I would probably go with Harvard if you want to work transactional overseas, but really go with the one you like better

PRinNYC
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:21 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Did you happen to get any scholarship offers at CCN?

There's no appreciable difference between these two schools, but there's no appreciable difference in biglaw outcomes between HYS and CCN.


Unfortunately not. Going into this cycle, my goal was big money at CCN but I stupidly ended up applying really late. Because of that, I haven't heard anything from Columbia and NYU. I just recently got an interview request from Chicago, but I'm not sure if I'll hear if I'm in there before the May 1 deadline for Harvard and Stanford.

But since my parents have said they'll help with the majority of the cost (mainly from college savings that went unused because of a scholarship I got in undergrad), I'm a bit less concerned now about the financial aspect.

In terms of the rest of the T14, I've only had silence and wait lists (probably again because I applied so late/YP in some cases).

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hammy393
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby hammy393 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!

PRinNYC
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:59 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:I would probably go with Harvard if you want to work transactional overseas, but really go with the one you like better


I was under that impression too. It seems like Harvard has a bit more of an international orientation, so I've been leaning that direction.

But I also really like Stanford's grading system and it seems like the smaller class size might make employment a bit easier (in the event that I don't get great grades).

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texasellewoods
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby texasellewoods » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:15 pm

The poster above didn't get the H grading system quite right -- the curve in 1L classes is aprox. 30% Honors, 60% Passes, and 10% Low Passes. The curve isn't actually published so this is rough breakdown.
There are sometimes Dean Scholar prizes to the top person in the class.
After 1L, curve isn't enforced. So the main difference between H and S is that there is a chance you get a Low Pass at Harvard during your first year.

Regarding employment, I deff don't have "great grades" but have my dream job this summer and have been able to make connections with some incredible professors and guest lecturers that I know will help down the road! So I wouldn't pick a school based on a low chance you may have an LP at Harvard instead of a P at S.

At the end of the day, I would go to both ASWs and make your choice after getting the real vibe of each. Ill be working the Harvard ASW next weekend -- let me know if you want to chat then!

T3TON
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby T3TON » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:26 pm

PRinNYC wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:I would probably go with Harvard if you want to work transactional overseas, but really go with the one you like better


I was under that impression too. It seems like Harvard has a bit more of an international orientation, so I've been leaning that direction.

But I also really like Stanford's grading system and it seems like the smaller class size might make employment a bit easier (in the event that I don't get great grades).


Do you have any useful language skills?

For international firms without US offices Harvard gives you slightly better placement. For international offices of US firms Stanford has slightly lower downside risk. If your grades are even ok at either school these differences cease to matter. Go where youll be happy.

PRinNYC
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:13 pm

T3TON wrote:
PRinNYC wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:I would probably go with Harvard if you want to work transactional overseas, but really go with the one you like better


I was under that impression too. It seems like Harvard has a bit more of an international orientation, so I've been leaning that direction.

But I also really like Stanford's grading system and it seems like the smaller class size might make employment a bit easier (in the event that I don't get great grades).


Do you have any useful language skills?

For international firms without US offices Harvard gives you slightly better placement. For international offices of US firms Stanford has slightly lower downside risk. If your grades are even ok at either school these differences cease to matter. Go where youll be happy.



Good to hear, thanks!

I can speak German and Spanish at an advanced level, but no Asian languages. Do language skills play a big role in getting an international corporate law job?

T3TON
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby T3TON » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:35 pm

PRinNYC wrote:
T3TON wrote:
PRinNYC wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:I would probably go with Harvard if you want to work transactional overseas, but really go with the one you like better


I was under that impression too. It seems like Harvard has a bit more of an international orientation, so I've been leaning that direction.

But I also really like Stanford's grading system and it seems like the smaller class size might make employment a bit easier (in the event that I don't get great grades).


Do you have any useful language skills?

For international firms without US offices Harvard gives you slightly better placement. For international offices of US firms Stanford has slightly lower downside risk. If your grades are even ok at either school these differences cease to matter. Go where youll be happy.



Good to hear, thanks!

I can speak German and Spanish at an advanced level, but no Asian languages. Do language skills play a big role in getting an international corporate law job?


Depends on what type of corporate work you want to be doing. For M&A type stuff helpful but not necessary. The usual path is to work for a couple of years in NY for a firm with overseas offices and then make the move overseas.

dirac
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby dirac » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:41 am

hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.

dirac
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby dirac » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:45 am

PRinNYC wrote:-The schools you are considering: Harvard and Stanford

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each:

No difference

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings:

Unfortunately, I don't qualify for any need based aid but my family will be providing significant support. In either case, I would be borrowing no more than 75-100k for the entire degree.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties:

I'm from New York and I'm not opposed to working in the city after law school. My dream, though, is to end up working internationally- preferably in an overseas office of one of the big law firms.

-Your general career goals:
Really (and perhaps naively) interested in international m&a work. Other transactional stuff appeals as well.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers:172/3.96

-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 2


I know this is a common thread topic, but I'd really appreciate any insight you have to give.

Both are obviously great options and I'm so thrilled to have this choice to make.

Ultimately, I think the choice for me will come down to fit and where I want to live the next three years of my life. I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking any important differences between the two that might make this choice a bit more straightforward.

Does either school have a slight edge in terms of employment prospects/ quality of education/ quality of life?


Congratulations on your great options! Both are excellent schools. If you want to work overseas, Harvard may be the better choice because you need to interact with your international clients frequently and they may care about Harvard more. In addition, the international alumni network of Harvard is amazing (that is the advantage of large class size) and they will help you a lot when you start your career.

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malleus discentium
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby malleus discentium » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:02 pm

dirac wrote:
hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.

Professors do give LPs in upper-level classes.

dirac
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby dirac » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:42 pm

malleus discentium wrote:
dirac wrote:
hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.

Professors do give LPs in upper-level classes.


That is too bad... I have to study harder for the finals.

AnonHumanPerson123
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby AnonHumanPerson123 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:40 am

dirac wrote:
hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.


Aren't there also "Book Prizes" at SLS which (more or less) are the equivalent of DS at HLS?

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hammy393
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby hammy393 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:47 pm

AnonHumanPerson123 wrote:
dirac wrote:
hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.


Aren't there also "Book Prizes" at SLS which (more or less) are the equivalent of DS at HLS?


Yea I think there are

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LoganCouture
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby LoganCouture » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:29 pm

hammy393 wrote:
AnonHumanPerson123 wrote:
dirac wrote:
hammy393 wrote:Stanford has quarter system, H has semesters

Stanford's grading system is better: H/P vs Harvard's HH/H/P

Stanford's clinics are full-time, quarter-long; no classes alongside them for that quarter. You can also do a quarter-long, full-time externship with no classes alongside it

And obviously the weather/size difference/access to professors, law review, etc due to class size

Stanford's on-campus housing is insanely good (but also pricey)

Good luck with your decision!


Harvard's grading system is DS/H/P/LP. However, LP is discretionary and cannot exceed 8 percent of the class. Most professors do not give LP for 1L required courses and no professor gives LP for upper-level classes. DS is normally 6 percent of the class and H is normally 36 percent of the class.


Aren't there also "Book Prizes" at SLS which (more or less) are the equivalent of DS at HLS?


Yea I think there are


Book Prizes are discretionary beyond the 1L required classes and many classes don't give them (not sure if that's the same with the DS at H)

edit: to answer the substantive question with my limited law student knowledge, S vs. H should be a decision based on "east coast" vs. "west coast" and "big school" vs. "small school." If you have strong leanings one way or the other, I think the decision should come down to that.

PRinNYC
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:28 pm

texasellewoods wrote:The poster above didn't get the H grading system quite right -- the curve in 1L classes is aprox. 30% Honors, 60% Passes, and 10% Low Passes. The curve isn't actually published so this is rough breakdown.
There are sometimes Dean Scholar prizes to the top person in the class.
After 1L, curve isn't enforced. So the main difference between H and S is that there is a chance you get a Low Pass at Harvard during your first year.

Regarding employment, I deff don't have "great grades" but have my dream job this summer and have been able to make connections with some incredible professors and guest lecturers that I know will help down the road! So I wouldn't pick a school based on a low chance you may have an LP at Harvard instead of a P at S.

At the end of the day, I would go to both ASWs and make your choice after getting the real vibe of each. Ill be working the Harvard ASW next weekend -- let me know if you want to chat then!


Thanks!

As you say, I think I just have to visit and see which school I vibe with more.

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Po$eidon
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby Po$eidon » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:31 pm

PRinNYC wrote:
texasellewoods wrote:The poster above didn't get the H grading system quite right -- the curve in 1L classes is aprox. 30% Honors, 60% Passes, and 10% Low Passes. The curve isn't actually published so this is rough breakdown.
There are sometimes Dean Scholar prizes to the top person in the class.
After 1L, curve isn't enforced. So the main difference between H and S is that there is a chance you get a Low Pass at Harvard during your first year.

Regarding employment, I deff don't have "great grades" but have my dream job this summer and have been able to make connections with some incredible professors and guest lecturers that I know will help down the road! So I wouldn't pick a school based on a low chance you may have an LP at Harvard instead of a P at S.

At the end of the day, I would go to both ASWs and make your choice after getting the real vibe of each. Ill be working the Harvard ASW next weekend -- let me know if you want to chat then!


Thanks!

As you say, I think I just have to visit and see which school I vibe with more.


This doesn't matter but I still think that Stanford is the most breathtaking campus I've ever seen. That palm tree-lined entrance? Stunning

Back2California
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby Back2California » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:26 am

Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

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rpupkin
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:57 am

Back2California wrote:Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

No.

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presidentspivey
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby presidentspivey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 am

rpupkin wrote:
Back2California wrote:Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

No.

Huh. You wouldn't even say S places better in CA (or at least NorCal) than H?

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rpupkin
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:48 am

presidentspivey wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Back2California wrote:Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

No.

Huh. You wouldn't even say S places better in CA (or at least NorCal) than H?

That's a slightly different question than the one I was answering.

It's more convenient for SLS students to apply for jobs in NorCal, obviously. And if I had straight Ps and my goal was to get a job at any firm that would take me in the Bay Area, I'd rather be at SLS than HLS. But as far as "caliber of firms" goes from top to bottom, there's no real difference between HLS and SLS.

PRinNYC
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby PRinNYC » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:50 pm

rpupkin wrote:
presidentspivey wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Back2California wrote:Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

No.

Huh. You wouldn't even say S places better in CA (or at least NorCal) than H?

That's a slightly different question than the one I was answering.

It's more convenient for SLS students to apply for jobs in NorCal, obviously. And if I had straight Ps and my goal was to get a job at any firm that would take me in the Bay Area, I'd rather be at SLS than HLS. But as far as "caliber of firms" goes from top to bottom, there's no real difference between HLS and SLS.


Someone from Standord told me that they thought it might actually be easier to get some of the top firms in New York from Stanford because they are a bit "rarer" or something along those lines. Do you think that's true?

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rpupkin
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Re: Any major distinguishing factors between S and H or is it just a question of fit?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:00 pm

PRinNYC wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
presidentspivey wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Back2California wrote:Not OP, but do they differ at all in terms of where they place/ the caliber of firms that graduates end up at?

No.

Huh. You wouldn't even say S places better in CA (or at least NorCal) than H?

That's a slightly different question than the one I was answering.

It's more convenient for SLS students to apply for jobs in NorCal, obviously. And if I had straight Ps and my goal was to get a job at any firm that would take me in the Bay Area, I'd rather be at SLS than HLS. But as far as "caliber of firms" goes from top to bottom, there's no real difference between HLS and SLS.


Someone from Standord told me that they thought it might actually be easier to get some of the top firms in New York from Stanford because they are a bit "rarer" or something along those lines. Do you think that's true?

Maybe, but I doubt it. This is one of those things that cuts both ways. There are probably some firms that value law-school diversity and would therefore be more inclined to make an offer to a SLS student just for the sake of rounding out the class. At the same time, there are firms that are very "alumni loyal"--a NYC firm with a bunch of HLS partners might be more likely to give a break to a HLS applicant instead of a SLS applicant of similar caliber. At the end of the day, it probably cancels out.




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