Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

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Augy1

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Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby Augy1 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:15 am

BC deposit deadline is tomorrow and I still haven't made up my mind. For the longest time I was leaning towards BC but after attending Fordham's ASD, I am now leaning towards Fordham.

If I go to Fordham, I will if everything goes to plan graduate debt free through a combination of living with my parents in NYC, scholarship (75k) and personal savings. I received a similar scholarship from BC but would need to find a roommate and lease an apartment.

My goal is to work in NYC big law although I'd be willing to explore other options since I know big law is no guarantee outside of the t-14.

I know Fordham is the logical choice but BC is higher ranked. Does that matter? Will that have any impact on my future career?

Thank you so much!

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Greenteachurro

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby Greenteachurro » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:24 am

Augy1 wrote:BC deposit deadline is tomorrow and I still haven't made up my mind. For the longest time I was leaning towards BC but after attending Fordham's ASD, I am now leaning towards Fordham.

If I go to Fordham, I will if everything goes to plan graduate debt free through a combination of living with my parents in NYC, scholarship (75k) and personal savings. I received a similar scholarship from BC but would need to find a roommate and lease an apartment.

My goal is to work in NYC big law although I'd be willing to explore other options since I know big law is no guarantee outside of the t-14.

I know Fordham is the logical choice but BC is higher ranked. Does that matter? Will that have any impact on my future career?

Thank you so much!


What's the money look like from each? Also, rankings don't really matter outside of the T-20ish .

ponderingmeerkat

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby ponderingmeerkat » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:33 am

You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go.

Fordham is your least-bad option because you can "boomerang-kid" and keep your expenses low. But, ultimately, if you go this route, I predict you will probably blow your life savings in an effort to graduate debt-free, and still end up working doc review in NYC while living in a studio in Queens.

You should retake/reapply.
Last edited by ponderingmeerkat on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mrtux45

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby mrtux45 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:50 am

ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go.

Fordham is your least-bad option because you can "boomerang-kid" and keep your expenses low. But, ultimately, if you go this route, I predict you will probably blow your life savings in an effort to graduate debt-free, and still end up working doc review in NYC while living in a studio in Queens.

You should retake/reapply.


Jesus man..I don't think that could've sounded more depressing if you tried.

OP, go to Fordham if you can do it debt free. It's clear you understand that big law isn't a likely outcome from either school, but the possibility is there. If you will be categorically and forever unhappy if you're not doing NYC big law, that changes things..in which case I'd say retake/reapply. But, if you'd be happy being a lawyer even if it isn't NYC big law (it's not like Fordham or BC can't provide other good outcomes), I'd say go for it.

You don't have to be eternally damned to doing doc review while living in a Queens studio if you're debt free.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby favabeansoup » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:13 pm

ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go....



BC has like a 40% biglaw rate.... That's not worth your pessimism in your post. UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools."

We tell them "you generally need to be top 1/3 or so and you should have a decent scholarship but then its reasonable to expect biglaw".

This guy's likely debt load will be 0. BC or Fordham can definitely be worth it compared to being $150k+ in debt at other lower T-14 schools.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:28 pm

favabeansoup wrote:
ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go....



BC has like a 40% biglaw rate.... That's not worth your pessimism in your post. UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools."

We tell them "you generally need to be top 1/3 or so and you should have a decent scholarship but then its reasonable to expect biglaw".

This guy's likely debt load will be 0. BC or Fordham can definitely be worth it compared to being $150k+ in debt at other lower T-14 schools.


BC is not free, according to OP's post. And I'd advise anyone against using up their savings to pay for a <50% chance at their career goals.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby vcap180 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:03 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
favabeansoup wrote:
ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go....



BC has like a 40% biglaw rate.... That's not worth your pessimism in your post. UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools"

We tell them "you generally need to be top 1/3 or so and you should have a decent scholarship but then its reasonable to expect biglaw".

This guy's likely debt load will be 0. BC or Fordham can definitely be worth it compared to being $150k+ in debt at other lower T-14 schools.


BC is not free, according to OP's post. And I'd advise anyone against using up their savings to pay for a <50% chance at their career goals.


Fordham has 42%BLFC this year. If they improved by 8.01% would you suddenly endorse Fordham as a smart option for those pursuing biglaw? After all, their graduates will be (statistically) more likely than not achieve that goal?

At the very least, you'd have to come up with a new way of framing your position. This is the problem with speaking - and especially giving advice - in such polarizing terms.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby ponderingmeerkat » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:05 pm

vcap180 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
favabeansoup wrote:
ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go....



BC has like a 40% biglaw rate.... That's not worth your pessimism in your post. UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools"

We tell them "you generally need to be top 1/3 or so and you should have a decent scholarship but then its reasonable to expect biglaw".

This guy's likely debt load will be 0. BC or Fordham can definitely be worth it compared to being $150k+ in debt at other lower T-14 schools.


BC is not free, according to OP's post. And I'd advise anyone against using up their savings to pay for a <50% chance at their career goals.


Fordham has 42%BLFC this year. If they improved by 8.01% would you suddenly endorse Fordham as a smart option for those pursuing biglaw? After all, their graduates will be (statistically) more likely than not achieve that goal?

At the very least, you'd have to come up with a new way of framing your position. This is the problem with speaking - and especially giving advice - in such polarizing terms.


There's absolutely nothing pessimistic or polarizing about my post...it's realistic. If I had said Fordham and BC were "bad schools" or some other shitpost, you'd have a point. Instead, I said they "probably" wouldn't get OP where he/she wants to go. Then you quote the sub-50% figure. Exactly! Below 50% = probably won't. We aren't splitting atoms here.

Had OP stated a goal of ADA or PD or any number of other options, my recommendation would've been different. But, BL+FC was the stated goal so I tempered my advice accordingly (and appropriately) to a more measured perspective.

Look guys, you do no one any favors by telling them to bet their life savings on black on the roulette wheel. You do even worse to that person advising them to bet their life savings on even worse odds.

So...completely standby everything I said.
Last edited by ponderingmeerkat on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ponderingmeerkat

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby ponderingmeerkat » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:22 pm

favabeansoup wrote:UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools.


I have an will continue to. You are probably not going to get big law from these schools...these are facts. (Although you have significantly better odds than Fordham or BC fwiw). Nor should you drain either your or your parent's life savings (or take out six figure loans) in an attempt to go to UT/GULC/etc with starry eyed dreams of big lawl.

So unsure where your consternation concerning my post is coming from.
Last edited by ponderingmeerkat on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vcap180

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby vcap180 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:41 am

ponderingmeerkat wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
favabeansoup wrote:
ponderingmeerkat wrote:You will probably not end up with biglaw out of Fordham. You will probably not end up with biglaw out of BC. The rankings of both these schools don't matter because neither are likely to place you where you want to go. You should never attend a school that gives you less than a coin-flip's chance of going where you want to go....



BC has like a 40% biglaw rate.... That's not worth your pessimism in your post. UT/Vandy/GULC all have had below 50% biglaw rates and we don't go around telling people "you probably won't get biglaw from these schools"

We tell them "you generally need to be top 1/3 or so and you should have a decent scholarship but then its reasonable to expect biglaw".

This guy's likely debt load will be 0. BC or Fordham can definitely be worth it compared to being $150k+ in debt at other lower T-14 schools.


BC is not free, according to OP's post. And I'd advise anyone against using up their savings to pay for a <50% chance at their career goals.


Fordham has 42%BLFC this year. If they improved by 8.01% would you suddenly endorse Fordham as a smart option for those pursuing biglaw? After all, their graduates will be (statistically) more likely than not achieve that goal?

At the very least, you'd have to come up with a new way of framing your position. This is the problem with speaking - and especially giving advice - in such polarizing terms.


There's absolutely nothing pessimistic or polarizing about my post...it's realistic. If I had said Fordham and BC were "bad schools" or some other shitpost, you'd have a point. Instead, I said they "probably" wouldn't get OP where he/she wants to go. Then you quote the sub-50% figure. Exactly! Below 50% = probably won't. We aren't splitting atoms here.

Had OP stated a goal of ADA or PD or any number of other options, my recommendation would've been different. But, BL+FC was the stated goal so I tempered my advice accordingly (and appropriately) to a more measured perspective.

Look guys, you do no one any favors by telling them to bet their life savings on black on the roulette wheel. You do even worse to that person advising them to bet their life savings on even worse odds.

So...completely standby everything I said.


You completely missed the point. I quoted the 42% figure to show that with just an 8.01% bump, they technically "probably will" get biglaw from Fordham. So does Fordham become a good idea if it makes that jump? I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't suddenly change your position; and if that's true, then you need a more nuanced explanation of why Fordham is a bad idea for OP under these circumstances, because as it stands, your argument is based entirely on the idea that he "probably wont" get biglaw.

The roulette analogy sucks. With roulette, he either doubles his money or he loses it. With law school, his biglaw aspirations could come true and his ROI could be immense; if he falls short of that, he will still have bought himself a JD which, I presume, has great utility for someone who wants to spend their life being a lawyer. It's not a zero-sum game.

Basically zero debt from a school that gives you a 42% chance at biglaw is somewhat defensible, even if OP is technically unlikely to get biglaw. I am not saying I would do it - or recommend it - but the situation isn't nearly as bleak as you're suggesting.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:48 am

vcap180 wrote:You completely missed the point. I quoted the 42% figure to show that with just an 8.01% bump, they technically "probably will" get biglaw from Fordham. So does Fordham become a good idea if it makes that jump? I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't suddenly change your position; and if that's true, then you need a more nuanced explanation of why Fordham is a bad idea for OP under these circumstances, because as it stands, your argument is based entirely on the idea that he "probably wont" get biglaw.

The roulette analogy sucks. With roulette, he either doubles his money or he loses it. With law school, his biglaw aspirations could come true and his ROI could be immense; if he falls short of that, he will still have bought himself a JD which, I presume, has great utility for someone who wants to spend their life being a lawyer. It's not a zero-sum game.

Basically zero debt from a school that gives you a 42% chance at biglaw is somewhat defensible, even if OP is technically unlikely to get biglaw. I am not saying I would do it - or recommend it - but the situation isn't nearly as bleak as you're suggesting.


The point is that money is being lost either way. This particular OP won't end up in debt at Fordham, but they also have a relatively low chance of getting the job they want. If the OP is fine making a fraction of the salary while working for a small firm or local government, then that's fine. But there aren't any in-between options after graduation. A JD has no inherent worth.

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Re: Please help me decide - another BC vs. Fordham thread

Postby vcap180 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:58 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
vcap180 wrote:You completely missed the point. I quoted the 42% figure to show that with just an 8.01% bump, they technically "probably will" get biglaw from Fordham. So does Fordham become a good idea if it makes that jump? I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't suddenly change your position; and if that's true, then you need a more nuanced explanation of why Fordham is a bad idea for OP under these circumstances, because as it stands, your argument is based entirely on the idea that he "probably wont" get biglaw.

The roulette analogy sucks. With roulette, he either doubles his money or he loses it. With law school, his biglaw aspirations could come true and his ROI could be immense; if he falls short of that, he will still have bought himself a JD which, I presume, has great utility for someone who wants to spend their life being a lawyer. It's not a zero-sum game.

Basically zero debt from a school that gives you a 42% chance at biglaw is somewhat defensible, even if OP is technically unlikely to get biglaw. I am not saying I would do it - or recommend it - but the situation isn't nearly as bleak as you're suggesting.


The point is that money is being lost either way. This particular OP won't end up in debt at Fordham, but they also have a relatively low chance of getting the job they want. If the OP is fine making a fraction of the salary while working for a small firm or local government, then that's fine. But there aren't any in-between options after graduation. A JD has no inherent worth.


No kidding - which is why I used the word "utility". Seeing as a JD is a requirement to practice law, and OP wants to be a lawyer, I don't think I need to qualify that any further.

OP already said he understands BL can't be assumed from Fordham, and he is clearly ok with the alternative. If he has accepted that, then pursuing an option that gives him a 42% chance at achieving his ideal outcome - and doing so with zero debt - is perfectly defensible.



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