HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

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mj33

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HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:50 pm

I honestly have no idea where I want to live coming out of law school. I toured both schools and loved them both. I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but I honestly don't know what to do.

Any advice on WF or BU in general would help so much. Thank you in advance! :)

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby ponderingmeerkat » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:04 pm

LSAT/GPA? Goals? Target employment market?
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mj33

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:21 pm

ponderingmeerkat wrote:LSAT/GPA? Goals? Target employment market?


166/3.4 -- I know this doesn't help, but I honestly can see myself living in either Charlotte big law OR Boston big law. I don't really have a preference, so that makes my decision even tougher.

I love Boston and love the vibe. Didn't feel the same about Winston-Salem. However, I felt more comfortable on campus during my tour at WF, and really clicked with the students. I could see myself at BU too, but I think I'll have more opportunities at Wake and possibly be more comfortable. Plus, roughly 50% of WF grads stay in NC, so I feel like my options won't be too limited if I go there.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:23 pm

Would you be paying 20k per year in tuition, or 20k discount on tuition per year?

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby grades?? » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:24 pm

LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.

BU is another story, but its still a real crapshoot to get biglaw from BU.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:25 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:Would you be paying 20k per year in tuition, or 20k discount on tuition per year?


20K discount. So COA would be 90K only considering tuition, then I have to factor in the high COL in Boston.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby Dr. Nefario » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:40 pm

How are you financing the remainder of school if you go to BU? 20k in scholarship with loans financing the remainder makes you have to go in Biglaw or bust which is very hard to do when only 36% get biglaw.

ETA: if you have SO funding or anything else, it'd be helpful to know. Also where do you actually have ties to?

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:08 pm

What is "Charlotte biglaw"?

But all joking aside, biglaw is not a likely outcome from either school. If that's your goal, retake and reapply.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:19 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:What is "Charlotte biglaw"?

But all joking aside, biglaw is not a likely outcome from either school. If that's your goal, retake and reapply.


I'm pretty sure Charlotte actually has a decent banking/finance scene. But yea, both these are bad options for your goals.

BU gives you an ok shot but is way too expensive. Wake gives you a terrible shot.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby AT9 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:09 pm

grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby grades?? » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:11 pm

AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops. If he wants Charlotte biglaw, then its a terrible option

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:34 pm

grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby grades?? » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:39 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


At my last count from OCI, there were less than 20 Charlotte biglaw SA gigs in total. You think WF is getting each one of those spots? LOL. WF certainly gets top 10% kids a shot at biglaw, but its spread between random NC places (usually in raleigh) and NYC. You obviously have continued to ignore what OP said. Charlotte biglaw. From WF, the chance gets really close to 0.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby AT9 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:57 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:58 pm

AT9 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.


You completely hit it on the head. I appreciate everyone's advice, but these responses are snarky and definitely turning me off to TLS. I can "see myself" going into BU or Charlotte big law, but this isn't necessarily a big goal of mine. Coming out of law school with no debt will obviously allow me to NOT pursue big law, and that's fine with me.

However, I don't think my chances of big law are zero. I understand what everyone's saying and the reasons behind it, but I have strong legal ties all over the country, as I come from a family of lawyers. Everyone on here acts like where you go to law school is the ONLY thing law firms consider when hiring. I've personally talked to the man in charge of hiring at Foley in Boston, and he told me that once candidates get through the initial screening, law school only becomes a small factor from there. And Wake Forest has a great reputation, and I've talked to many practicing attorneys (mid law and big law) that have confirmed this.

Thank you everyone for the advice, but I am definitely not retaking and I love both of the options I'm considering. I think both are good options, and I will be perfectly fine no matter where I choose. Just thought some advice and insight would help.
Last edited by mj33 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:09 pm

mj33 wrote:
AT9 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.


You completely hit it on the head. I appreciate everyone's advice, but these responses are snarky and definitely turning me off to TLS. I can "see myself" going into BU or Charlotte big law, but this isn't necessarily a big goal of mine. Coming out of law school with no debt will obviously allow me to pursue big law, and that's fine with me.

However, I don't think my chances of big law are zero. I understand what everyone's saying and the reasons behind it, but I have strong legal ties all over the country, as I come from a family of lawyers. Everyone on here acts like where you go to law school is the ONLY thing law firms consider when hiring. I've personally talked to the man in charge of hiring at Foley in Boston, and he told me that once candidates get through the initial screening, law school only becomes a small factor from there. And Wake Forest has a great reputation, and I've talked to many practicing attorneys (mildew and big law) that have confirmed this.

Thank you everyone for the advice, but I am definitely not retaking and I love both of the options I'm considering. I think both are good options, and I will be perfectly fine no matter where I choose.


I'd like to clarify that I don't think either are good options with big law goals and I DO think you should retake and go to a better school (or BU for much cheaper). "The initial screening process" you speak of involves picking the students with top grades, which you definitely can't count on getting.

But if you're not going to listen, then good luck.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:10 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
mj33 wrote:
AT9 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.


You completely hit it on the head. I appreciate everyone's advice, but these responses are snarky and definitely turning me off to TLS. I can "see myself" going into BU or Charlotte big law, but this isn't necessarily a big goal of mine. Coming out of law school with no debt will obviously allow me to pursue big law, and that's fine with me.

However, I don't think my chances of big law are zero. I understand what everyone's saying and the reasons behind it, but I have strong legal ties all over the country, as I come from a family of lawyers. Everyone on here acts like where you go to law school is the ONLY thing law firms consider when hiring. I've personally talked to the man in charge of hiring at Foley in Boston, and he told me that once candidates get through the initial screening, law school only becomes a small factor from there. And Wake Forest has a great reputation, and I've talked to many practicing attorneys (mildew and big law) that have confirmed this.

Thank you everyone for the advice, but I am definitely not retaking and I love both of the options I'm considering. I think both are good options, and I will be perfectly fine no matter where I choose.


I'd like to clarify that I don't think either are good options with big law goals and I DO think you should retake and go to a better school (or BU for much cheaper). "The initial screening process" you speak of involves picking the students with top grades, which you definitely can't count on getting.

But if you're not going to listen, then good luck.


Once again, big law is not necessarily a goal of mine. But thanks!

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:11 pm

mj33 wrote:
AT9 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.


You completely hit it on the head. I appreciate everyone's advice, but these responses are snarky and definitely turning me off to TLS. I can "see myself" going into BU or Charlotte big law, but this isn't necessarily a big goal of mine. Coming out of law school with no debt will obviously allow me to pursue big law, and that's fine with me.

However, I don't think my chances of big law are zero. I understand what everyone's saying and the reasons behind it, but I have strong legal ties all over the country, as I come from a family of lawyers. Everyone on here acts like where you go to law school is the ONLY thing law firms consider when hiring. I've personally talked to the man in charge of hiring at Foley in Boston, and he told me that once candidates get through the initial screening, law school only becomes a small factor from there. And Wake Forest has a great reputation, and I've talked to many practicing attorneys (mildew and big law) that have confirmed this.

Thank you everyone for the advice, but I am definitely not retaking and I love both of the options I'm considering. I think both are good options, and I will be perfectly fine no matter where I choose.


Are you also comfortable and fine with missing out on those outcomes? Are you okay with small law firms in NC or Boston/MA? Would you be comfortable with far less income with little guarantee of that income improving? And would you be comfortable paying off the respective debt you're looking at in BU or WF/NC? I don't mean to snark, and I don't seek to disprove your admittedly anecdotal experience in speaking to lawyers in your family all over the country. But the statistics don't lie: neither of these options are likely to get you the outcomes you want. They're possible, but they aren't likely. If you're comfortable with the risk you're taking on at BU or WF that you'll spend the full COA correspondent with the likelihood of your desired outcome, that's on you. But you're making a decidedly risky financial calculus, and really, that's all anyone here is warning you against. That's your decision. You don't have a clear better choice here because they're both pretty marginal at best, but if you're comfortable with them, then pick which you value more: marginally better biglaw in Boston/more cost, or marginally worse biglaw in NC or elsewhere/less cost.

Like I said, I don't mean to demean your options, but I'm genuinely curious if you've considered the possibility that you won't get what you want from either of these schools, because that substantially matters. Think about whether you'd be comfortable with more modest income in their respective regions, because all reliable data tells us that this is the most likely outcome from BU and WF.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:16 pm

UVA2B wrote:
mj33 wrote:
AT9 wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:
AT9 wrote:
grades?? wrote:LOL if you think you are getting biglaw, let alone Charlotte biglaw from WF. Duke kids in the top 20% who are from NC have a hard time getting Charlotte biglaw (probably because there essentially isn't much). And then you are competing against UNC too.

You probably should retake. WF wont get you biglaw in NC, especially if you don't have ties to NC. And WF wont get you biglaw really anywhere else.


This is a little exaggerated. Yes, NC biglaw/midlaw is tough to crack, but this post makes it sound as if Wake is Elon or something. There's like a 20-25% chance you could grab biglaw/midlaw from Wake, probably slightly less for NC specifically.

Obviously that's not a great shot and you shouldn't come here expecting biglaw, but the snarkiness in this post is unwarranted. If you want biglaw, retake or go to BU and hope you can beat the odds by getting biglaw AND that you can stay in it long enough to service $150k in loans. If you're ok working just any lawyer job with little predictability as to where you end up or what you'll make, Wake isn't a terrible option with full tuition (Winston COL is dirt cheap).


He literally said he wanted Charlotte biglaw. Not being snarky, it just is a fact that it is essentially impossible from WF. Like 1-3 Wf grads a year, tops.


This is so obviously not true. Where do you think the 10-20 percent of wake kids getting biglaw are going?
OP shouldn't go to either of these schools though.

I do think that people on this board turn people off with their hyperbole, which then leads them to reject generally good advice.


Yeah, this. Hyperbole/snarkiness usually isn't helpful. We're all in agreement that Charlotte biglaw is unlikely from Wake (or anywhere else really). It sounds to me like OP should reevaluate/clarify his/her goals, as it doesn't sound like OP really cares all that much about where s/he ends up geographically.

I will say that, despite the earlier hyperbole, the Charlotte biglaw SA numbers probably aren't that far off. I'd say like 5 or so per year get Charlotte biglaw or midlaw offers. It really is a competitive market. But, again, I read OP's posts to say more like "yeah, I could like Charlotte biglaw" rather than "this is definitely my goal," so I think we're missing the mark here a little.


You completely hit it on the head. I appreciate everyone's advice, but these responses are snarky and definitely turning me off to TLS. I can "see myself" going into BU or Charlotte big law, but this isn't necessarily a big goal of mine. Coming out of law school with no debt will obviously allow me to pursue big law, and that's fine with me.

However, I don't think my chances of big law are zero. I understand what everyone's saying and the reasons behind it, but I have strong legal ties all over the country, as I come from a family of lawyers. Everyone on here acts like where you go to law school is the ONLY thing law firms consider when hiring. I've personally talked to the man in charge of hiring at Foley in Boston, and he told me that once candidates get through the initial screening, law school only becomes a small factor from there. And Wake Forest has a great reputation, and I've talked to many practicing attorneys (mildew and big law) that have confirmed this.

Thank you everyone for the advice, but I am definitely not retaking and I love both of the options I'm considering. I think both are good options, and I will be perfectly fine no matter where I choose.


Are you also comfortable and fine with missing out on those outcomes? Are you okay with small law firms in NC or Boston/MA? Would you be comfortable with far less income with little guarantee of that income improving? And would you be comfortable paying off the respective debt you're looking at in BU or WF/NC? I don't mean to snark, and I don't seek to disprove your admittedly anecdotal experience in speaking to lawyers in your family all over the country. But the statistics don't lie: neither of these options are likely to get you the outcomes you want. They're possible, but they aren't likely. If you're comfortable with the risk you're taking on at BU or WF that you'll spend the full COA correspondent with the likelihood of your desired outcome, that's on you. But you're making a decidedly risky financial calculus, and really, that's all anyone here is warning you against. That's your decision. You don't have a clear better choice here because they're both pretty marginal at best, but if you're comfortable with them, then pick which you value more: marginally better biglaw in Boston/more cost, or marginally worse biglaw in NC or elsewhere/less cost.

Like I said, I don't mean to demean your options, but I'm genuinely curious if you've considered the possibility that you won't get what you want from either of these schools, because that substantially matters. Think about whether you'd be comfortable with more modest income in their respective regions, because all reliable data tells us that this is the most likely outcome from BU and WF.


I feel like I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not big law or bust. I meant I could see myself in a big law firm in one of these cities, but I didn't say it was necessarily a goal of mine. I genuinely do not know what I want to do after law school, and I think that's completely normal. And I would come out of WF with absolutely no debt, so I also don't understand why it's a risky decision from a financial perspective.

I really am just trying to understand why there's a perception that law school is all that matters when it comes to being a successful attorney.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby AT9 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:24 pm

OP, sorry if I missed this, but what's your total COA for BU?

Wake with literally no debt is a good deal if you're ok with relatively modest outcomes (with great outcomes possible, but unlikely). Wake for free vs. BU with significant debt is a no brainer. But if the COA is less than your scholarship implies and you'd rather live in the northeast vs. the south, then it's a different calculus.

(Btw, it probably wasn't clear earlier, but I'm a Wake 3L who's happy to answer questions via PM as well)

Edit: your school name isn't all that matters, but it is a big screening factor for biglaw type hiring. It's used as a metric of prestige/prospective capability. That may not be fair, but that's the legal world. I think Wake generally has a good reputation in the legal community (as does BU), but it doesn't change the fact that biglaw will almost always prefer a median T14 student over, say, a top 1/3 Wake student.
Last edited by AT9 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:28 pm

mj33 wrote:I feel like I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not big law or bust. I meant I could see myself in a big law firm in one of these cities, but I didn't say it was necessarily a goal of mine. I genuinely do not know what I want to do after law school, and I think that's completely normal. And I would come out of WF with absolutely no debt, so I also don't understand why it's a risky decision from a financial perspective.

I really am just trying to understand why there's a perception that law school is all that matters when it comes to being a successful attorney.


Ok, well your initial response post mentioned being comfortable in Boston or Charlotte Biglaw, which is likely why everyone is keying on that. And you're right that most incoming law students don't know specifically what they want to do, and there is little harm in that in a vacuum. And coming out of a law school without debt (haven't reread the thread, assuming you have cost of living paid for by something other than loans) is absolutely desirable.

Assuming you'd be comfortable to be a small firm attorney or DA/PD in NC, WF with zero debt is a very desirable option. Even if you're comfortable with those outcomes while wanting Charlotte biglaw, I think you can justify the decision. It becomes a problem only if you're uncomfortable with making significantly less doing less complex legal work* because you missed out on the target market Biglaw.

Success is all relative, but traditionally we gauge success by compensation compared to debt, and the most likely outcome at BU or WF won't be competitive with biglaw salaries. If you define success differently, then obviously your calculus is different.

*ETA: PD/DA work can be absolutely complex, didn't mean to lump small firm work in with PD/DA beyond them being likely outcomes

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:40 pm

AT9 wrote:OP, sorry if I missed this, but what's your total COA for BU?

Wake with literally no debt is a good deal if you're ok with relatively modest outcomes (with great outcomes possible, but unlikely). Wake for free vs. BU with significant debt is a no brainer. But if the COA is less than your scholarship implies and you'd rather live in the northeast vs. the south, then it's a different calculus.

(Btw, it probably wasn't clear earlier, but I'm a Wake 3L who's happy to answer questions via PM as well)

Edit: your school name isn't all that matters, but it is a big screening factor for biglaw type hiring. It's used as a metric of prestige/prospective capability. That may not be fair, but that's the legal world. I think Wake generally has a good reputation in the legal community (as does BU), but it doesn't change the fact that biglaw will almost always prefer a median T14 student over, say, a top 1/3 Wake student.


This makes so much sense. Thank you so much for the input! I know that it's important to go where you want to practice, and it doesn't help that I'm undecided in this. I've lived in FL my entire life, never really traveled, so that's why I don't really have solid goals for after law school. I will definitely PM you tomorrow, I really appreciate it :)

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby mj33 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:45 pm

UVA2B wrote:
mj33 wrote:I feel like I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not big law or bust. I meant I could see myself in a big law firm in one of these cities, but I didn't say it was necessarily a goal of mine. I genuinely do not know what I want to do after law school, and I think that's completely normal. And I would come out of WF with absolutely no debt, so I also don't understand why it's a risky decision from a financial perspective.

I really am just trying to understand why there's a perception that law school is all that matters when it comes to being a successful attorney.


Ok, well your initial response post mentioned being comfortable in Boston or Charlotte Biglaw, which is likely why everyone is keying on that. And you're right that most incoming law students don't know specifically what they want to do, and there is little harm in that in a vacuum. And coming out of a law school without debt (haven't reread the thread, assuming you have cost of living paid for by something other than loans) is absolutely desirable.

Assuming you'd be comfortable to be a small firm attorney or DA/PD in NC, WF with zero debt is a very desirable option. Even if you're comfortable with those outcomes while wanting Charlotte biglaw, I think you can justify the decision. It becomes a problem only if you're uncomfortable with making significantly less doing less complex legal work* because you missed out on the target market Biglaw.

Success is all relative, but traditionally we gauge success by compensation compared to debt, and the most likely outcome at BU or WF won't be competitive with biglaw salaries. If you define success differently, then obviously your calculus is different.

*ETA: PD/DA work can be absolutely complex, didn't mean to lump small firm work in with PD/DA beyond them being likely outcomes


Right, I definitely should have been more clear. I apologize for that.

I agree with everything you've said, especially about success being relative. I think my definition of success is different than others' opinions on here, and that's totally okay. I just wasn't expecting the reactions I got tbh.

That being said, I would be completely happy with working in a smaller-type firm, especially coming out of law school with no debt. But I would also be happy in mid-law and big-law firms... I just want to be a practicing attorney. I know I have a lot to think about and consider, so I guess it's hard to give advice when I'm being vague about my goals.

Thank you again for the clarifying response.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:52 pm

mj33 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
mj33 wrote:I feel like I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not big law or bust. I meant I could see myself in a big law firm in one of these cities, but I didn't say it was necessarily a goal of mine. I genuinely do not know what I want to do after law school, and I think that's completely normal. And I would come out of WF with absolutely no debt, so I also don't understand why it's a risky decision from a financial perspective.

I really am just trying to understand why there's a perception that law school is all that matters when it comes to being a successful attorney.


Ok, well your initial response post mentioned being comfortable in Boston or Charlotte Biglaw, which is likely why everyone is keying on that. And you're right that most incoming law students don't know specifically what they want to do, and there is little harm in that in a vacuum. And coming out of a law school without debt (haven't reread the thread, assuming you have cost of living paid for by something other than loans) is absolutely desirable.

Assuming you'd be comfortable to be a small firm attorney or DA/PD in NC, WF with zero debt is a very desirable option. Even if you're comfortable with those outcomes while wanting Charlotte biglaw, I think you can justify the decision. It becomes a problem only if you're uncomfortable with making significantly less doing less complex legal work* because you missed out on the target market Biglaw.

Success is all relative, but traditionally we gauge success by compensation compared to debt, and the most likely outcome at BU or WF won't be competitive with biglaw salaries. If you define success differently, then obviously your calculus is different.

*ETA: PD/DA work can be absolutely complex, didn't mean to lump small firm work in with PD/DA beyond them being likely outcomes


Right, I definitely should have been more clear. I apologize for that.

I agree with everything you've said, especially about success being relative. I think my definition of success is different than others' opinions on here, and that's totally okay. I just wasn't expecting the reactions I got tbh.

That being said, I would be completely happy with working in a smaller-type firm, especially coming out of law school with no debt. But I would also be happy in mid-law and big-law firms... I just want to be a practicing attorney. I know I have a lot to think about and consider, so I guess it's hard to give advice when I'm being vague about my goals.

Thank you again for the clarifying response.


I mean this in the most deferential way possible: you seem to be justifying going to WF. That's not bad, but it's just the overarching theme I get in reading your responses. If you're comfortable ending up in NC with a modest outcome, WF is great. Being from FL should give some pause (as point of reference, I met a WF Law grad working as a bartender in VA not too long ago. It's anecdotal, but should give some pause about being from outside NC looking for work in the area). But WF for free (previous caveats about cost of living still applying) seems reasonable if you're comfortable with the likely outcomes from WF.

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Re: HELP! BU (20k per/yr) vs WF (full ride)

Postby AT9 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:04 am

UVA2B wrote:
mj33 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
mj33 wrote:I feel like I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not big law or bust. I meant I could see myself in a big law firm in one of these cities, but I didn't say it was necessarily a goal of mine. I genuinely do not know what I want to do after law school, and I think that's completely normal. And I would come out of WF with absolutely no debt, so I also don't understand why it's a risky decision from a financial perspective.

I really am just trying to understand why there's a perception that law school is all that matters when it comes to being a successful attorney.


Ok, well your initial response post mentioned being comfortable in Boston or Charlotte Biglaw, which is likely why everyone is keying on that. And you're right that most incoming law students don't know specifically what they want to do, and there is little harm in that in a vacuum. And coming out of a law school without debt (haven't reread the thread, assuming you have cost of living paid for by something other than loans) is absolutely desirable.

Assuming you'd be comfortable to be a small firm attorney or DA/PD in NC, WF with zero debt is a very desirable option. Even if you're comfortable with those outcomes while wanting Charlotte biglaw, I think you can justify the decision. It becomes a problem only if you're uncomfortable with making significantly less doing less complex legal work* because you missed out on the target market Biglaw.

Success is all relative, but traditionally we gauge success by compensation compared to debt, and the most likely outcome at BU or WF won't be competitive with biglaw salaries. If you define success differently, then obviously your calculus is different.

*ETA: PD/DA work can be absolutely complex, didn't mean to lump small firm work in with PD/DA beyond them being likely outcomes


Right, I definitely should have been more clear. I apologize for that.

I agree with everything you've said, especially about success being relative. I think my definition of success is different than others' opinions on here, and that's totally okay. I just wasn't expecting the reactions I got tbh.

That being said, I would be completely happy with working in a smaller-type firm, especially coming out of law school with no debt. But I would also be happy in mid-law and big-law firms... I just want to be a practicing attorney. I know I have a lot to think about and consider, so I guess it's hard to give advice when I'm being vague about my goals.

Thank you again for the clarifying response.


I mean this in the most deferential way possible: you seem to be justifying going to WF. That's not bad, but it's just the overarching theme I get in reading your responses. If you're comfortable ending up in NC with a modest outcome, WF is great. Being from FL should give some pause (as point of reference, I met a WF Law grad working as a bartender in VA not too long ago. It's anecdotal, but should give some pause about being from outside NC looking for work in the area). But WF for free (previous caveats about cost of living still applying) seems reasonable if you're comfortable with the likely outcomes from WF.


I agree with almost everything UVA is saying, but I'll just counter the out of state bit by saying that a majority of WF students are from out of state (a lot, including me, from Florida), yet most still find decent jobs as lawyers. You're absolutely right that NC is ties-sensitive so it's worth considering, but plenty of out of state students find employment either in NC or their home states.



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