Michgan vs Columbia

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undecided2020

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Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:49 am

This is what I am trying to decide. Visited both, really liked both. $90,000 from Michigan, nothing yet from CLS. Not sure what I want to do after graduation but want to keep all options open. I am interested in clerking I think but I can't say for sure now. Not 100% committed to biglaw but want to still keep it an option. From NY so most likely will want to stay in NY to practice.

Also considering Penn and Duke.

Financials are not my biggest concern, so I am looking for input just purely based on the best choice overall.

cavalier1138

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:53 am

When you say "financials are not my biggest concern," do you mean that you have some independent way of reducing your debt load? Or do you mean that you're just ignoring debt until you're paying it off?

In general, you should wait to see what CLS offers before trying to make any firm decisions.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby cheaptilts » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:55 am

Even with financials not being a concern, $90,000 from Michigan vs. a (current) $0 scholarship from Columbia is a no-brainer. Go to Ann Arbor.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:00 pm

Well I will have parental help with $$ but that doesn't mean I won't pay them back. But they've advised me not to make my decision based purely on money. Don't want to be pennywise and pound foolish, meaning I don't want to look back and regret my choice thinking I was saving money but having lost out on better opportunities. The money is not make or break I guess is what I am saying.

I just reached out to Columbia but since I wasn't looking at need based I didn't file any paperwork. Waiting to hear back as to what they need from me to consider some kind of quasi merit/grant $$. My stats were not enough for merit money with admission. Not counting on getting money from them so trying to make my decision keeping that out of it.

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BoyJord

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby BoyJord » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:01 pm

cheaptilts wrote:Even with financials not being a concern, $90,000 from Michigan vs. a (current) $0 scholarship from Columbia is a no-brainer. Go to Ann Arbor.

That being said, if you go to Columbia this could help my friend's negotiation with Michigan. "Hey can you give me some more money? I know Undecided left 90k on the table, maybe you could throw some of that my way..."

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Npret » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:04 pm

Does money matter or not? Does $90,000 have any real meaning to your family?
You are giving mixed signals.
I'm guessing it matters because otherwise you wouldn't ask so I would recommend you go to Michigan but you will go to Columbia anyway.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:07 pm

BoyJord wrote:
cheaptilts wrote:Even with financials not being a concern, $90,000 from Michigan vs. a (current) $0 scholarship from Columbia is a no-brainer. Go to Ann Arbor.

That being said, if you go to Columbia this could help my friend's negotiation with Michigan. "Hey can you give me some more money? I know Undecided left 90k on the table, maybe you could throw some of that my way..."


You got it:)

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby dabigchina » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:08 pm

Assuming you are filthy (like parents are 8+ figure net worth) rich, sticker @ CLS is the best outcome for you.

Assuming you are upper middle class, and below, go to Michigan.

undecided2020

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:10 pm

Npret wrote:Does money matter or not? Does $90,000 have any real meaning to your family?
You are giving mixed signals.
I'm guessing it matters because otherwise you wouldn't ask so I would recommend you go to Michigan but you will go to Columbia anyway.


Money always matters regardless of your personal financial situation. I posted the numbers because I know people would ask.

So maybe I should just be asking which is the "better" school for a person with an undecided career path assuming sticker price at both?
Or are they both equal?
Just asking for opinions.

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UVA2B

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby UVA2B » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:12 pm

undecided2020 wrote:Well I will have parental help with $$ but that doesn't mean I won't pay them back. But they've advised me not to make my decision based purely on money. Don't want to be pennywise and pound foolish, meaning I don't want to look back and regret my choice thinking I was saving money but having lost out on better opportunities. The money is not make or break I guess is what I am saying.

I just reached out to Columbia but since I wasn't looking at need based I didn't file any paperwork. Waiting to hear back as to what they need from me to consider some kind of quasi merit/grant $$. My stats were not enough for merit money with admission. Not counting on getting money from them so trying to make my decision keeping that out of it.


That's great that you have the remaining costs covered, but I think you're approaching this decision slightly askew from the realities of legal hiring. Columbia might give you some options that Michigan would not (and more likely it's just that Columbia gives you slightly better chances at elite outcomes you shouldn't really plan for going into law school), but the main benefit of Columbia over Michigan is the degree of safety you have in getting a desirable outcome.* In that, I mean Michigan gives you approximately 65% chance of Biglaw+Fed clerkship, and Columbia is closer to 80% chance. That means you have more room for error if you underperform at Columbia than you would have at Michigan, but given the most likely outcome is being a median student at either, you're effectively paying that extra money for ~15% cushion in falling behind your classmates. The median Michigan grad and the median Columbia grad end up with the same options and same compensation for those options. If you value that ~15% cushion that much, then spend the extra money on Columbia. But understand that Columbia doesn't give the median graduate a markedly different outcome following graduation.

*Obviously if you were PI or bust, you'd need to factor LRAPs and type of PI into this equation, but it doesn't sound like you're heading that direction, so I'm confining discussion to where statistics most reliably show outcomes.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Clemenceau » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:15 pm

Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:16 pm

Thanks UVA2b.

You make good points. I agree that your reasoning about the 15% cushion is a good one and I would need to decide what that was worth to me.

the LRAP situation is another whole issue. I am not ruling out PI and the LRAP at Columbia is very appealing. But I am not sure enough to base my entire decision banking on PI

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:18 pm

Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


I did, but I just didn't love it there after visiting. Faculty seemed great but that's about it. Had a much more positive feeling from Michigan and Columbia, but that's just me. I had thought I was going to love Duke.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:20 pm

undecided2020 wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


I did, but I just didn't love it there after visiting. Faculty seemed great but that's about it. Had a much more positive feeling from Michigan and Columbia, but that's just me. I had thought I was going to love Duke.


Do you love the idea of better job placement numbers?

The "feel" of a school is one of the last things you should consider during this process. Not that it's unimportant, but it's well behind the cost of attendance and job prospects.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:23 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
undecided2020 wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


I did, but I just didn't love it there after visiting. Faculty seemed great but that's about it. Had a much more positive feeling from Michigan and Columbia, but that's just me. I had thought I was going to love Duke.


Do you love the idea of better job placement numbers?

The "feel" of a school is one of the last things you should consider during this process. Not that it's unimportant, but it's well behind the cost of attendance and job prospects.

Point taken.

Yes job placement is a major concern, but I suppose I didn't appreciate that significant a difference between Duke and Michigan.

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Iwanttolawschool

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:24 pm

Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....

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BoyJord

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby BoyJord » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:29 pm

Iwanttolawschool wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....


No more ridiculous than paying 90k more for Columbia. If anything paying 30k more for Duke makes more sense.

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Iwanttolawschool

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:33 pm

BoyJord wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....


No more ridiculous than paying 90k more for Columbia. If anything paying 30k more for Duke makes more sense.


Agreed. That wasn't actually my point. I think Michigan is the clear winner here, without hearing other offers.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby BoyJord » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:37 pm

Iwanttolawschool wrote:
BoyJord wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....


No more ridiculous than paying 90k more for Columbia. If anything paying 30k more for Duke makes more sense.


Agreed. That wasn't actually my point. I think Michigan is the clear winner here, without hearing other offers.


gotcha, my mistake. I came in hot

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Npret » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:46 pm

dabigchina wrote:Assuming you are filthy (like parents are 8+ figure net worth) rich, sticker @ CLS is the best outcome for you.

Assuming you are upper middle class, and below, go to Michigan.

If OP had that much money they wouldn't have posted the question.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Clemenceau » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:56 pm

Iwanttolawschool wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....


I'm a 2L, thanks.

1. Duke's placement is better than michigan's. 75% and 77% BL/FC for the last two years we have the numbers for. Umich is 61% and 54%. That's a significant difference, and it's worth paying for. I can tell from a mile away that you have some allegiance to michigan.

2. OP is clearly getting some financial assistance for his or her family. Paying a 30k premium for a superior school when you have a parental subsidy is a perfectly rational move. The best decision? Hard to say. But rational? Sure.

3. Chill out and maybe take 2 seconds to see that I've been posting here for 3 years before assuming I'm a 0L.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby undecided2020 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:00 pm

Npret wrote:
dabigchina wrote:Assuming you are filthy (like parents are 8+ figure net worth) rich, sticker @ CLS is the best outcome for you.

Assuming you are upper middle class, and below, go to Michigan.

If OP had that much money they wouldn't have posted the question.


Yes completely not filthy rich. More on the clean side :)

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:50 pm

Lol you're just trolling me now. Could not disagree more (and would say the same if Duke and Michigan were reversed here).

With schools like NYU Duke Michigan Penn Northwestern etc etc how you do is wayyyyy more important than which of the schools. Top 10% any of those schools you're gonna have a shot at an amazing career, bottom 10% you're gonna need to hustle. If you think one school will provide a better environment, that's huge. This is why I picked Michigan over NYU and consider it one of the better decisions I've made. Michigan offered a better environment for me.


cavalier1138 wrote:
undecided2020 wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


I did, but I just didn't love it there after visiting. Faculty seemed great but that's about it. Had a much more positive feeling from Michigan and Columbia, but that's just me. I had thought I was going to love Duke.


Do you love the idea of better job placement numbers?

The "feel" of a school is one of the last things you should consider during this process. Not that it's unimportant, but it's well behind the cost of attendance and job prospects.

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:53 pm

I'd say 50/50 between the schools. If you don't care about money and like the Columbia name/don't mind or actively want that environment, that seems like the move. If you see yourself doing better in A2, maybe that's better?

You're gonna be fine either way, so don't sweat it and get ready to crush your 1L. Way more important than where you go.

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Iwanttolawschool

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Re: Michgan vs Columbia

Postby Iwanttolawschool » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:49 pm

Clemenceau wrote:
Iwanttolawschool wrote:
Clemenceau wrote:Get any money from Duke? It has superior placement than Mich, and is certainly cheaper than CLS. Would be a nice option if you got 60k or so.


Paying 30k more for Duke is ridiculous. I wish proof of current law school attendance or graduation was a requirement before being allowed to give advice....


I'm a 2L, thanks.

1. Duke's placement is better than michigan's. 75% and 77% BL/FC for the last two years we have the numbers for. Umich is 61% and 54%. That's a significant difference, and it's worth paying for. I can tell from a mile away that you have some allegiance to michigan.

2. OP is clearly getting some financial assistance for his or her family. Paying a 30k premium for a superior school when you have a parental subsidy is a perfectly rational move. The best decision? Hard to say. But rational? Sure.

3. Chill out and maybe take 2 seconds to see that I've been posting here for 3 years before assuming I'm a 0L.


1. You seem to have used Duke's 2015 and 2016 numbers, but then Michigan's 2014 and 2015 numbers. What school do you go to?



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