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Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:29 pm
by lichtblickz
Mockingbird42 wrote:I'm 100% not surprised OP feels this way. Minnesotans are kind and warm people, but they are hard to make friends with. Unlike Californians who are friends with everyone, close with no one, Minnesotans have a close knit friend groups. It's wonderful if you are on the inside but I can imagine it's demoralizing to be on the other side


Not sure about Calfornia. I quite like Texan. Seems Minnesota people don't like New Yorker but I personally think they are more open.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:30 pm
by lichtblickz
stego wrote:
bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.

I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...

This post was shitty. OP's complaint was not "the school is not diverse enough." It was "the school is not inclusive enough." There is a difference. OP mentioned that the student board was all-white, but presumably he/she mentioned it because there are non-white students who could have been on the board, but aren't.

Also, just by looking at Minnesota's 509, it's a lot more diverse than I would have expected. The entering JD class contained 55 "nonresident aliens" (out of 555). That doesn't include the minority US students.

https://www.law.umn.edu/sites/law.umn.e ... -57-28.pdf


I would agree that general Minnesota people are very kind and helpful.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:32 pm
by lichtblickz
sanzgo wrote:i'm an international myself and although i can't speak for OP, what i can say is law school's pretty tough for international students socially speaking.

with the exception of certain schools like berkeley, you'll find most law schools are predominantly white. so if you're an international student from a non-caucasian country, you'll definitely experience some moments where you feel like you don't belong. people often like to say it's not about race, it's about culture but i was surprised to find that's actually not that true. the caucasian international student from france for example, has an easier time assimilating than the hmong international student. why? i can't say exactly but probably b/c american caucasian people tend to have a greater social/biological affinity towards foreigners of "their kind" than those of a different kind. the exception to this is if you're a female east-asian international who is hot. but that's just b/c there's a lot of thirsty white dudes in law school.

now you'll almost never find instances where the american jd students are outright discriminatory but these kinds of things are always gonna be subtle in 2017. you'll see that person rolling his/her eyes when someone speaks with a funny accent. during asw or first week of class, you'll often find students quickly moving on to the next person after that introductory handshake once they realize you're "different." after the first few times you let it slip that you didn't get a joke during a group gathering, you'll find yourself not being invited to the next one.

now i don't wanna dig on the american students too much b/c i think it's human nature to naturally gravitate towards those of their own "kind", which encompasses both cultural and racial factors. but i just write this to inform other prospective international students on what they can expect. making friends is pretty important for international students because studying abroad in a foreign country where they know very few people can be a lonely experience.

my advice is to check the law school 509s and go to a school with a decent amount internationals. sometimes, all it takes is just one close friend to turn your ls experience from miserable to fun and you'll have a higher chance finding that person in a school that accepts more of your "kind."

these are the 2016 number of internationals (1L through 3L) per school for the T14s:

Y 42
H 217
S 13
Chi 23
C 141
N 113
P 42
M 59
V 11
B 49
D 44
N 67
C 71
G 126

my advice? if you're an international, i highly suggest harvard, yale, columbia, and nyu in that order. usually it's Y > H but harvard has a tremendous international body and although this depends a lot on which country you're originally from, if you're from a country that sends a decent amount of international students to hls each year, you'll make some of the closest friends there. the hls international alumni network is also tremendously beneficial if you see yourself going back to your country one day.

if you don't get into HYCN, then the rest is kinda up for grabs except for virginia. i don't have anything against the type of students at uva but trust me when i say it's not an easy place for a non-caucasian international student to make friends in. of course, there's more that goes into selecting a law school than just the socializing aspect but i would at least say it's a nontrivial factor for internationals. 3 years (esp with 3LOL) is a long time, believe it or not.

*one thing i'll say about NU is that it's a great ls for internationals but the downside is you'll be separated from the main campus so it's hard to bond with other international students from other departments.


Very thoughtful and informative. I did not give advice and can only speak of UMN. I think your advice makes sense. The race issue should be a consideration for international students.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:35 pm
by lichtblickz
Winter is Coming wrote:I also think you have to be careful about lumping raw numbers of international students into one group and assuming everyone will naturally be friends (or more likely to be friends than with American students). At my school there was definitely some LLM solidarity, but there were definitely cliques within groups and some of the smaller groups were better friends with American students than they were with people from their native country. This was especially noticeable with Chinese students, some of whom would let slip openly hostile comments about other Chinese from different regions/classes.


Similar here. More solidarity in LLM community. And barely any communication between JD and LLM students even european LLM students. Many Chinese students so there are sub-groups.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:36 pm
by lichtblickz
worldtraveler wrote:As a UMN grad myself (undergrad, not law) this thread doesn't really surprise me unfortunately.


Don't know why but feel happy that I could be understood here.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:50 pm
by cavalier1138
Was this really worth seven necros?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:48 pm
by shao
Sympathy for op. An International student myself.
I just wanna say it's not very fair to ask a foreigner to google it and "know about" the area. People don't naturally have a sense- the word "Minnesota" doesn't mean anything and doesn't link to any image at least to me, and there are all kinds of information out there. Like I doubt that one can tell the difference of a personal experience between Shanghai and Beijing before you actually live there (for a foreigner of course).

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:40 pm
by RedPurpleBlue
shao wrote:Sympathy for op. An International student myself.
I just wanna say it's not very fair to ask a foreigner to google it and "know about" the area. People don't naturally have a sense- the word "Minnesota" doesn't mean anything and doesn't link to any image at least to me, and there are all kinds of information out there. Like I doubt that one can tell the difference of a personal experience between Shanghai and Beijing before you actually live there (for a foreigner of course).


I also have some sympathy for OP and want to echo your sentiment, albeit my perspective is a bit different. I studied in both of the cities you mentioned (Shanghai and Beijing) for a pretty decent chunk of time. I'm a white guy born and raised in one of the whitest states in the country. I had no clue what to expect in either city and couldn't actually grasp their differences until I had my feet on the ground in both places. No pictures, videos, conversations with Chinese friends, or readings really helped. It was just impossible for me as a foreigner to understand how unique Beijing is from Shanghai or how I would be received in both places. I can understand how OP could do a lot of research on UMN and Minnesota, apply, get accepted, enroll, start school, and feel disappointed in the experience.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:16 am
by Rahviveh
This is stupid. Different people with different backgrounds are less likely to get along because they have less in common. You expect some random dude in Russia or China to fit in with people from Minnesota? Stop being surprised by human nature, You are a cash cow for the school, stfu and just pay your tuition so the school can laugh to the bank.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:03 am
by cron1834
Rahviveh wrote:You are a cash cow for the school, stfu and just pay your tuition so the school can laugh to the bank.

:lol:

Really though, LLMs are such an obvious scam. Berkeley runs into budget problems, and what's the literal first thing they do? Introduce a hybrid-online, expanded LLM program. It should be obvious that these schools don't care about you, aside from your money. Color me shocked that you didn't have a United Nations experience...

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:30 pm
by Teflon_Jeff
OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:34 pm
by Thesaurus
Teflon_Jeff wrote:OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.

How many friends did you make that were LLMs?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:40 pm
by Teflon_Jeff
While there? Half a dozen or so, maybe more. I haven't stayed in contact with any of them, as it's a one year program.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:15 pm
by PeanutsNJam
I want to befriend LLMs and get to know them but it's hard.

They hangout in groups by themselves and it feels weird for me to insert myself into a 5-6 cluster of LLMs.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:58 pm
by lichtblickz
Rahviveh wrote:This is stupid. Different people with different backgrounds are less likely to get along because they have less in common. You expect some random dude in Russia or China to fit in with people from Minnesota? Stop being surprised by human nature, You are a cash cow for the school, stfu and just pay your tuition so the school can laugh to the bank.


That could be sadly the truth. So many people think like you. So----Think Twice about coming here as an International Student/Ethnical Student ---- my advice.

Thanks for supporting my point.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:01 pm
by lichtblickz
Teflon_Jeff wrote:OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.


Your mouth is full of shit. Did you just come back from the toilet?

I know Sush. She is nice but how about the next presidents? Law Council has very limited budget for minority students compared to other schools.

I actually made many friends, but not the types of friends like you. Many friends not from Minnesota and many international friends. I do not want to prove myself because your argument is pointless.

Just curious, how did you know the LLM friends? Though law council? I guess that could be the only way to know a few of them.

I think your argument that I did not make friends is silly. That proves nothing. =D

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:03 pm
by lichtblickz
Thesaurus wrote:
Teflon_Jeff wrote:OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.

How many friends did you make that were LLMs?


First I am JD. Second, I have many friends but found it is easier to make friends with JD students that are not so "local" and from other countries. There are two groups maybe, the one that are open and the one that are "local."

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:05 pm
by lichtblickz
PeanutsNJam wrote:I want to befriend LLMs and get to know them but it's hard.

They hangout in groups by themselves and it feels weird for me to insert myself into a 5-6 cluster of LLMs.


I think the law school should have more activities and try to make it like a community.

I have some LLM students who try to talk with JD students after class but ... cold faces you know ...

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:36 pm
by cavalier1138
lichtblickz wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:I want to befriend LLMs and get to know them but it's hard.

They hangout in groups by themselves and it feels weird for me to insert myself into a 5-6 cluster of LLMs.


I think the law school should have more activities and try to make it like a community.

I have some LLM students who try to talk with JD students after class but ... cold faces you know ...


Are you saying that your faces are too cold from the Minnesota weather? Or is this another stupid fucking necro of a useless thread where one (I'm gonna go with German or Austrian) student makes the same point over and over again?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:56 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
cavalier1138 wrote:
lichtblickz wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:I want to befriend LLMs and get to know them but it's hard.

They hangout in groups by themselves and it feels weird for me to insert myself into a 5-6 cluster of LLMs.


I think the law school should have more activities and try to make it like a community.

I have some LLM students who try to talk with JD students after class but ... cold faces you know ...


Are you saying that your faces are too cold from the Minnesota weather? Or is this another stupid fucking necro of a useless thread where one (I'm gonna go with German or Austrian) student makes the same point over and over again?

Chill. They came back less than 10 days after the most recent point to respond to later comments. They're allowed to do that.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:12 pm
by Thesaurus
lichtblickz wrote:
Thesaurus wrote:
Teflon_Jeff wrote:OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.

How many friends did you make that were LLMs?


First I am JD. Second, I have many friends but found it is easier to make friends with JD students that are not so "local" and from other countries. There are two groups maybe, the one that are open and the one that are "local."

I'm a 1L (not at Minnesota) and both of my roommates are international LLMs. We get along but the issues for me are that they're going to be gone in a year, and we don't have any of the same classes. At my school they also had their orientation before we did, and they mostly seem to hang out with other LLMs.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:50 pm
by lichtblickz
Your post is simply unintelligent.... funny

cavalier1138 wrote:
lichtblickz wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:I want to befriend LLMs and get to know them but it's hard.

They hangout in groups by themselves and it feels weird for me to insert myself into a 5-6 cluster of LLMs.


I think the law school should have more activities and try to make it like a community.

I have some LLM students who try to talk with JD students after class but ... cold faces you know ...


Are you saying that your faces are too cold from the Minnesota weather? Or is this another stupid fucking necro of a useless thread where one (I'm gonna go with German or Austrian) student makes the same point over and over again?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:52 pm
by lichtblickz
Hope you good luck being with your LLM friend.

Thesaurus wrote:
lichtblickz wrote:
Thesaurus wrote:
Teflon_Jeff wrote:OP is full of shit.

Example: the 2015 law council president was Sush Rajeevan, definitely not white. Further, I know for a fact that 2014 and 2013 law council had minority students.

Further, there are more "[diversity] law students" groups than you shake a deciduous forest at. If the OP hasn't made any friends, despite many attempts with a wide variety of people, maybe look at the common factor.

I am not a fan of UMN Law, for unrelated reasons. I went there, and am extremely unlikely to ever donate money. However, the incredibly diverse student body (Especially compared to the state demographic as a whole) is very inclusive. Among my lasting friends are: Armenian, Korean, Lithuanian, Native Minnesotan, Native American, Mexican, Indian, and even a Packer fan! And I wasn't particularly social, what with being married with multiple children all through law school (and today, thanks for asking)

So, tl:dr law school is what you make it, and OP apparently struggles to make friends/ might be very unlikeable.

How many friends did you make that were LLMs?


First I am JD. Second, I have many friends but found it is easier to make friends with JD students that are not so "local" and from other countries. There are two groups maybe, the one that are open and the one that are "local."

I'm a 1L (not at Minnesota) and both of my roommates are international LLMs. We get along but the issues for me are that they're going to be gone in a year, and we don't have any of the same classes. At my school they also had their orientation before we did, and they mostly seem to hang out with other LLMs.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:28 pm
by URMSenator52
Should of went to school in NYC,DC, or Philly. If you wanted diversity,and inclusion. Minnesota is a random choice, with no lucrative legal market. Your judgment of school attendance,based off these factors is flawed.. The best legal markets,are ironically in very diverse cities. Which is a shocking and sobering phenomenon too most TLS users..

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:59 pm
by cavalier1138
URMSenator52 wrote:The best legal markets,are ironically in very diverse cities. Which is a shocking and sobering phenomenon too most TLS users..


...what?