Page 3 of 5

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:03 pm
by PeanutsNJam
Just out of curiosity, what do you think the law school can do about this? Admit more non-white students? Would a larger percentage of black/Hispanic students solve your problem?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:40 pm
by lichtblickz
PeanutsNJam wrote:Just out of curiosity, what do you think the law school can do about this? Admit more non-white students? Would a larger percentage of black/Hispanic students solve your problem?


There are many, to list a few, a student board with more diversity (caucasian students are overly-represented in student board as they are the majority vote), have more inclusion activities so students can know each other, ask the professors to give students more chances to speak up, etc There are more for them to choose as they know the system. Since the culture is rooted, it is difficult to change in short time but efforts could be made,

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:46 pm
by SemiReverseSplinter
Nolita Fairytale wrote:
SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.


I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*


OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:25 pm
by lichtblickz
SemiReverseSplinter wrote:
Nolita Fairytale wrote:
SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.


I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*


OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.


No I m not. See previous posts. There is also lack of communication btw local students and students of other ethnic groups in law school. This is not as true in other UMN colleges though.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:52 am
by flyhigh_
It's good to see this information about Minnesota. I can't say I'm very surprised in relation to the issues surrounding international students. I think that must be the case in a lot of these law schools. I'm an international student myself and was considering Minnesota as an LLM because of the funding I was given. However, I have other options. Regardless of being a regional school I think their LLM looks great and useful for the purposes of bar prep. To be honest if I saw someone rolling their eyes while I talk I would laugh really. Takes balls to study law in a different context and legal system. I would like to see these "heroes" study law abroad in an unfamiliar environment. In any case, the people at the international office seem to be really nice and I generally seem like to like school but it's good to know these details about the life of an international student at Minnesota before I make a decision.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:48 pm
by flyhigh_
lichtblickz wrote:
SemiReverseSplinter wrote:
Nolita Fairytale wrote:
SemiReverseSplinter wrote:If it's racism, that is terrible. I go to a t20 school that brings in a ton of LLMs every year to try and make up for all the scholarships thrown at JDs. From my understanding, it's not the race or ethnicity differences that create the separation, rather its how the LLM degree is viewed by the JDs, faculty, and school in general. JDs know that taking a class with a lot of LLMs practically guarantees them a top spot on the curve just because of differences in writing ability. Faculty actively try to keep LLMs out of their classes. School administration set policies that try to keep LLMs paying for as long as possible. The truth is that LLMs are treated as a commodity to boost revenue. And I think that mindset trickles down from the administration to the students.

Then there's of course the awful reality that USA jobs for LLMs do not exist. I'm surprised ATL hasn't written anything about the LLM degree, because it really is a scandal to allow so many students to graduate without a usable degree.


I agree with pretty much everything you said. LLM programs are cash cows and more or less useless for getting US jobs. An important thing here/for this thread, however, is that the OP is a JD student.*


OP starts the post by noting the lack of communication between JDs and LLMs, so I assumed OP was an LLM. Also, I know that UMN rapidly expanded its LLM program last year to bring in more revenue.


No I m not. See previous posts. There is also lack of communication btw local students and students of other ethnic groups in law school. This is not as true in other UMN colleges though.


It's good to see this information about Minnesota. I can't say I'm very surprised in relation to the issues surrounding international students. I think that must be the case in a lot of these law schools. I'm an international student myself and was considering Minnesota as an LLM because of the funding I was given. However, I have other options. Regardless of being a regional school I think their LLM looks great and useful for the purposes of bar prep. To be honest if I saw someone rolling their eyes while I talk I would laugh really. Takes balls to study law in a different context and legal system. I would like to see these "heroes" study law abroad in an unfamiliar environment. In any case, the people at the international office seem to be really nice and I generally seem like to like school but it's good to know these details about the life of an international student at Minnesota before I make a decision.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:17 pm
by Pragmatic Gun
Potential for arguments of race. I'm tagging this thread for future entertainment.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:30 pm
by flyhigh_
Pragmatic Gun wrote:Potential for arguments of race. I'm tagging this thread for future entertainment.


Well perhaps thats where the discussion is going but I'm more interested in the course itself rather than a fruitless debate on students and their ethnicities.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:55 pm
by lichtblickz
lichtblickz wrote:Racism is rare at UMN but inclusion is also rare. The student board has been all-white for several years as far as I know. There is very little communication between LLM students and JD students, and little communication students between international students and local students.

One of the prevalent views of the international students among the local students: “they come here to send money to the school but are not quite qualified.” I heard several times in the class that the local students snickered at another international student who answered a question at class with an accent... More of them just show the facial expression of impatience. The culture is just like that.

The local legal market for international students in Minnesota is not strong. NONE of the several dozens of international students (JD, LLM) found a law-firm work in MInnesota. Some of them found work in California and New York though. Even if you choose to work on immigration law, there are not many opportunities in the state as there is not much international business or many immigrants.

Agree or not, Minneapolis are is a pretty good area, but the law school is not very inclusive (compared to other east/west coast law schools I heard about). I have to say most professors are friendly. The new dean seems to start working on this, though the administration specializing on diversity & student program does not seem very efficient on inclusion or assistance to international students.

So my advice: think twice, if you are not of the local culture here.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:39 pm
by TheSpanishMain
Op, are you trying to work in the us, or return home?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:56 pm
by cavalier1138
Thank Zeus you necroed your own damn thread by quoting yourself. Makes you look super-credible and not at all like you have an axe to grind.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:17 pm
by cron1834
Yep. Time for a ban.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:55 am
by lavarman84
lichtblickz wrote:
bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.

I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...


1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

2. However I would have researched, I could not have imagined that here many local JD students barely talk with international JD and LLMs, not to mention other inclusion matters.


I gotta ask: Have you made an effort to talk to the local students?

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:41 am
by Mockingbird42
I'm 100% not surprised OP feels this way. Minnesotans are kind and warm people, but they are hard to make friends with. Unlike Californians who are friends with everyone, close with no one, Minnesotans have a close knit friend groups. It's wonderful if you are on the inside but I can imagine it's demoralizing to be on the other side

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:50 am
by stego
bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.

I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...

This post was shitty. OP's complaint was not "the school is not diverse enough." It was "the school is not inclusive enough." There is a difference. OP mentioned that the student board was all-white, but presumably he/she mentioned it because there are non-white students who could have been on the board, but aren't.

Also, just by looking at Minnesota's 509, it's a lot more diverse than I would have expected. The entering JD class contained 55 "nonresident aliens" (out of 555). That doesn't include the minority US students.

https://www.law.umn.edu/sites/law.umn.e ... -57-28.pdf

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:18 am
by sanzgo
i'm an international myself and although i can't speak for OP, what i can say is law school's pretty tough for international students socially speaking.

with the exception of certain schools like berkeley, you'll find most law schools are predominantly white. so if you're an international student from a non-caucasian country, you'll definitely experience some moments where you feel like you don't belong. people often like to say it's not about race, it's about culture but i was surprised to find that's actually not that true. the caucasian international student from france for example, has an easier time assimilating than the hmong international student. why? i can't say exactly but probably b/c american caucasian people tend to have a greater social/biological affinity towards foreigners of "their kind" than those of a different kind. the exception to this is if you're a female east-asian international who is hot. but that's just b/c there's a lot of thirsty white dudes in law school.

now you'll almost never find instances where the american jd students are outright discriminatory but these kinds of things are always gonna be subtle in 2017. you'll see that person rolling his/her eyes when someone speaks with a funny accent. during asw or first week of class, you'll often find students quickly moving on to the next person after that introductory handshake once they realize you're "different." after the first few times you let it slip that you didn't get a joke during a group gathering, you'll find yourself not being invited to the next one.

now i don't wanna dig on the american students too much b/c i think it's human nature to naturally gravitate towards those of their own "kind", which encompasses both cultural and racial factors. but i just write this to inform other prospective international students on what they can expect. making friends is pretty important for international students because studying abroad in a foreign country where they know very few people can be a lonely experience.

my advice is to check the law school 509s and go to a school with a decent amount internationals. sometimes, all it takes is just one close friend to turn your ls experience from miserable to fun and you'll have a higher chance finding that person in a school that accepts more of your "kind."

these are the 2016 number of internationals (1L through 3L) per school for the T14s:

Y 42
H 217
S 13
Chi 23
C 141
N 113
P 42
M 59
V 11
B 49
D 44
N 67
C 71
G 126

my advice? if you're an international, i highly suggest harvard, yale, columbia, and nyu in that order. usually it's Y > H but harvard has a tremendous international body and although this depends a lot on which country you're originally from, if you're from a country that sends a decent amount of international students to hls each year, you'll make some of the closest friends there. the hls international alumni network is also tremendously beneficial if you see yourself going back to your country one day.

if you don't get into HYCN, then the rest is kinda up for grabs except for virginia. i don't have anything against the type of students at uva but trust me when i say it's not an easy place for a non-caucasian international student to make friends in. of course, there's more that goes into selecting a law school than just the socializing aspect but i would at least say it's a nontrivial factor for internationals. 3 years (esp with 3LOL) is a long time, believe it or not.

*one thing i'll say about NU is that it's a great ls for internationals but the downside is you'll be separated from the main campus so it's hard to bond with other international students from other departments.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:00 am
by cavalier1138
stego wrote:Also, just by looking at Minnesota's 509, it's a lot more diverse than I would have expected. The entering JD class contained 55 "nonresident aliens" (out of 555). That doesn't include the minority US students.


Yeah, but it does include Brits, Aussies, and other international students who are far less likely to experience any real form of bias in school.

Even though it's already been said, this bears repeating: there's not much point in an international student (who wants their H1B visa) going to Minnesota. There's even less of a point in going to a state like Minnesota and being shocked to find that it's not a haven for diverse cultures and skin tones. It's fucking Minnesota. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's downright stupid to go to a state like that and expect things to be different.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:13 am
by A. Nony Mouse
There are actually a shitload of Ethopians and Hmong in the Twin Cities - it's not like it's solely a bastion of nordic whiteness. Now, I'm not going to argue that that translates into diversity at the law school, but I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about the state here (or at least the metro Twin Cities, which is where the law school is).

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:42 am
by Winter is Coming
I also think you have to be careful about lumping raw numbers of international students into one group and assuming everyone will naturally be friends (or more likely to be friends than with American students). At my school there was definitely some LLM solidarity, but there were definitely cliques within groups and some of the smaller groups were better friends with American students than they were with people from their native country. This was especially noticeable with Chinese students, some of whom would let slip openly hostile comments about other Chinese from different regions/classes.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:54 pm
by cron1834
A. Nony Mouse wrote:There are actually a shitload of Ethopians and Hmong in the Twin Cities - it's not like it's solely a bastion of nordic whiteness. Now, I'm not going to argue that that translates into diversity at the law school, but I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about the state here (or at least the metro Twin Cities, which is where the law school is).

Right. Plus lots of other diverse groups. The twin cities are about 63% white, which is far from monolithic.

Also, it's not clear what work some types of diversity actually do in this context. Take Philadelphia. It's only 45% white... but also about 45% black. Does that somehow make a Japanese LLM feel more at home? I'm skeptical. I'd much rather be in Seattle if I were Japanese, given the cultural and demographic connections there. Likewise, if you're Somali, Ethiopian, or Hmong, there aren't too many U.S. cities you'd rather be in than Minneapolis.

White law students are probably the same at every T14, on average. I can't know this, but I strongly suspect it.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:34 am
by lavarman84
sanzgo wrote:with the exception of certain schools like berkeley, you'll find most law schools are predominantly white. so if you're an international student from a non-caucasian country, you'll definitely experience some moments where you feel like you don't belong. people often like to say it's not about race, it's about culture but i was surprised to find that's actually not that true. the caucasian international student from france for example, has an easier time assimilating than the hmong international student. why? i can't say exactly but probably b/c american caucasian people tend to have a greater social/biological affinity towards foreigners of "their kind" than those of a different kind. the exception to this is if you're a female east-asian international who is hot. but that's just b/c there's a lot of thirsty white dudes in law school.


Subconscious racial bias is a real thing. It's definitely a factor here, but I think you're underestimating the cultural differences here. There are a lot less cultural differences for Western European international students than there are for hmong international students in regards to white Americans.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:50 am
by Greenteachurro
A. Nony Mouse wrote:There are actually a shitload of Ethopians and Hmong in the Twin Cities - it's not like it's solely a bastion of nordic whiteness. Now, I'm not going to argue that that translates into diversity at the law school, but I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about the state here (or at least the metro Twin Cities, which is where the law school is).


And a TON of somalis, I mean they practically run the airport here.

I mean the greater state is obviously overwhelmingly white but the cities has a lot more diversity than you'd expect.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:50 pm
by worldtraveler
As a UMN grad myself (undergrad, not law) this thread doesn't really surprise me unfortunately.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:26 pm
by lichtblickz
TheSpanishMain wrote:Op, are you trying to work in the us, or return home?


Haven't decided yet. Found some jobs but not so satisfied.

Re: Think Twice about UMN as an International Student/Ethnical Student

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:28 pm
by lichtblickz
lavarman84 wrote:
lichtblickz wrote:
bwaldorf wrote:So you're shocked that in Minnesota, there is little diversity and a long winter.

I feel as if your problems could've been avoided with even a smidgen of research...


1. The purpose of this article is to give advice to OTHERS. So others (International Students, African American, Asian, Latino students) would know even without your so-called "smidgen of research."

2. However I would have researched, I could not have imagined that here many local JD students barely talk with international JD and LLMs, not to mention other inclusion matters.


I gotta ask: Have you made an effort to talk to the local students?


Of course. Came to bar before and several students in my section can speak among themselves without looking at me for more than 10 mins. Some students are very friendly though. As for a few students, if you say hello to them, they sometimes pretend not hearing it.