Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

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asdf2017

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Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:32 pm

3.67, 163 (3rd take)

Really hard to choose between NU sticker and Illinois $$$ for me. Done with retaking so this is it.

I need a strong reason to convince myself to throw away $$$ from Illinois. NU brand prestige attracts me more than anything real. The quality of teaching should be no difference between the two. My goal is to be a lawyer with financial freedom one day. I don't prefer any particular field nor size of law firms. I am open to anything in law.

Which school will you choose?
Last edited by asdf2017 on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cheaptilts

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cheaptilts » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:34 pm

What is the total cost of attendance (include cost of living) for each school after subtracting scholarship money? Regardless, Illinois is the correct answer, given your goals. Even a partial scholarship at Northwestern won't give you anything near "financial freedom" for several years, if at all.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:41 pm

cheaptilts wrote:What is the total cost of attendance (include cost of living) for each school after subtracting scholarship money? Regardless, Illinois is the correct answer, given your goals. Even a partial scholarship at Northwestern won't give you anything near "financial freedom" for several years, if at all.


Illinois gives me full scholly so just rent $900ish/month.
NU sticker, so tuition plus rent $1300ish/month

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cheaptilts » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:43 pm

asdf2017 wrote:
cheaptilts wrote:What is the total cost of attendance (include cost of living) for each school after subtracting scholarship money? Regardless, Illinois is the correct answer, given your goals. Even a partial scholarship at Northwestern won't give you anything near "financial freedom" for several years, if at all.


Illinois gives me full scholly so just rent $900ish/month.
NU sticker, so tuition plus rent $1300ish/month

No, that's not what I meant.

You should use this calculator: https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... eid=112745 or something to find out the total cost of attendance upon graduation. You'll likely looking at $300,000 in debt for a Northwestern degree, and probably ~65-70k for a Illinois degree. Make of that what you will.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby Rigo » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:54 pm

Why do you want to be a lawyer? It seems like you're just in it for the money, but the days of law as a surefire way to the American Dream are long gone.

Take the UIUC full ride if you insist on going in the fall.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:09 am

I echo the prior question: why do you want to go to law school?

Also, just to correct any misconceptions for people who want to go to a Chicago school: $1300 is rent if you want to live close to the Loop. Studios and 1BR can be found for much cheaper if you look elsewhere.

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guynourmin

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby guynourmin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:22 am

It sounds like you shouldn't go to law school. If you do go, it should be to Illinois, though.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:52 pm

guybourdin wrote:It sounds like you shouldn't go to law school. If you do go, it should be to Illinois, though.


Why shouldn't I go to law school?

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Johann

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby Johann » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:55 pm

if you want biglaw NU. if youre scared of 300k of debt, Illinois.

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UVA2B

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:58 pm

asdf2017 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:It sounds like you shouldn't go to law school. If you do go, it should be to Illinois, though.


Why shouldn't I go to law school?


Do you have stated goals with the degree? What type of law do you want to get into? What kind of job do you imagine yourself in after graduation? You've very roughly laid out the costs, but you haven't stated your goals at all. That's half of the cost-benefit analysis, and no one can help you without knowing that half.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby acr » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:11 pm

Since you're "open to anything in law," I don't think paying $300K for Northwestern sounds like a good idea.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:10 am

UVA2B wrote:
asdf2017 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:It sounds like you shouldn't go to law school. If you do go, it should be to Illinois, though.


Why shouldn't I go to law school?


Do you have stated goals with the degree? What type of law do you want to get into? What kind of job do you imagine yourself in after graduation? You've very roughly laid out the costs, but you haven't stated your goals at all. That's half of the cost-benefit analysis, and no one can help you without knowing that half.


I go to law school to figure out what kind of law I want to spend my life on.
It's irresponsible to limit myself before I even study anything law related.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:53 am

asdf2017 wrote:I go to law school to figure out what kind of law I want to spend my life on.
It's irresponsible to limit myself before I even study anything law related.


Kind of. But you should at least have a vague idea of what you want to do for your career (even if you end up switching paths part way through). A generic "I wanna go to law school to learn about the law," isn't actually a good reason to go. Law school is a professional school, and it's not clear from this thread that you actually want to be a lawyer in the long term.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:48 am

I'm going to quote what I just said in another thread:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
armc808 wrote:Many people don't know exactly what they want to do going into law school, and many who think they know end up changing their minds in law school when they come into contact with an area of the law they weren't previously familiar with but find that they enjoy. It's okay to not know what exactly you want to do yet, and you shouldn't let anyone make you feel bad for not having your career planned out as a 0L.

I agree with this, to the extent that 0L have a realistic idea of what legal careers are even out there. It's fine not to be sure whether you'd want transactional/lit, biglaw v. small, etc., and I definitely agree that people change their minds a lot along the way (I didn't decide on what I'm doing now till after graduation). But I also think people need to learn about whether, for instance, international human rights law is actually a thing (technically yes) and whether they have any of the required background for it (probably not). Or to put it another way, a lot of the fields that sound sexy to non-lawyers (like international human rights) are exactly the fields where you do have to planned everything out and laid the foundation leading up to law school.

So as long as 0Ls have realistic expectations about what kinds of jobs they can get coming out of school (especially out of the schools they're looking at), and are fine picking among those, they're good. But some jobs are more unrealistic than others, and require more planning/preparation than others. It's a lot harder to simply decide 3L that you'd like to pursue international human rights after all - you're much better off gunning for that from day 1.

OP, when you say you're open to anything in law, what does that actually look like to you? What do you expect to get out of a job in law?

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:31 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm going to quote what I just said in another thread:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
armc808 wrote:Many people don't know exactly what they want to do going into law school, and many who think they know end up changing their minds in law school when they come into contact with an area of the law they weren't previously familiar with but find that they enjoy. It's okay to not know what exactly you want to do yet, and you shouldn't let anyone make you feel bad for not having your career planned out as a 0L.

I agree with this, to the extent that 0L have a realistic idea of what legal careers are even out there. It's fine not to be sure whether you'd want transactional/lit, biglaw v. small, etc., and I definitely agree that people change their minds a lot along the way (I didn't decide on what I'm doing now till after graduation). But I also think people need to learn about whether, for instance, international human rights law is actually a thing (technically yes) and whether they have any of the required background for it (probably not). Or to put it another way, a lot of the fields that sound sexy to non-lawyers (like international human rights) are exactly the fields where you do have to planned everything out and laid the foundation leading up to law school.

So as long as 0Ls have realistic expectations about what kinds of jobs they can get coming out of school (especially out of the schools they're looking at), and are fine picking among those, they're good. But some jobs are more unrealistic than others, and require more planning/preparation than others. It's a lot harder to simply decide 3L that you'd like to pursue international human rights after all - you're much better off gunning for that from day 1.

OP, when you say you're open to anything in law, what does that actually look like to you? What do you expect to get out of a job in law?


That's great advice. I just want to be a great lawyer and make good money (like 3 years after JD making $100k+ in Midwest will be ideal).
I don't really have any idea of what kind of law I want to practice. Like I said, I am open to anything, which means I will be applying for tons of openings and pick the best option once I have options. I just don't want to narrow down my options before I see the world.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby asdf2017 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:36 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
asdf2017 wrote:I go to law school to figure out what kind of law I want to spend my life on.
It's irresponsible to limit myself before I even study anything law related.


Kind of. But you should at least have a vague idea of what you want to do for your career (even if you end up switching paths part way through). A generic "I wanna go to law school to learn about the law," isn't actually a good reason to go. Law school is a professional school, and it's not clear from this thread that you actually want to be a lawyer in the long term.


Given my grades and school, I am not going to be law professor.
I will become a lawyer. In-house, biglaw, midlaw, or small law are all fine with me. Small law can make good money too. Some of my family friends are solo lawyers and they are making $200k a year.

I want to be living comfortably while helping people at the same time.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:44 am

asdf2017 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
asdf2017 wrote:I go to law school to figure out what kind of law I want to spend my life on.
It's irresponsible to limit myself before I even study anything law related.


Kind of. But you should at least have a vague idea of what you want to do for your career (even if you end up switching paths part way through). A generic "I wanna go to law school to learn about the law," isn't actually a good reason to go. Law school is a professional school, and it's not clear from this thread that you actually want to be a lawyer in the long term.


Given my grades and school, I am not going to be law professor.
I will become a lawyer. In-house, biglaw, midlaw, or small law are all fine with me. Small law can make good money too. Some of my family friends are solo lawyers and they are making $200k a year.

I want to be living comfortably while helping people at the same time.


Ok, you contradicted yourself about five times in there.

Yes, solo lawyers can make good money. They generally don't get to that point until they've been working long enough to build up a client base. And lawyers at small firms do not pull in $200k a year unless the firm is an elite boutique.

But you also aren't really "helping people" in the type of law you're referring to. Non-plaintiff's law firms don't represent individuals, for the most part. They represent corporate interests in one way or another. And the jobs that do involve more directly helping people don't offer anywhere near your desired salary.

So again, I have to ask: what do you want to do with your JD? You keep saying, "I will be a lawyer," but it's not clear that you have any idea what that means or what to expect from the field. If anything, most of your ideas of how the legal job market works seem at odds with reality.

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guynourmin

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby guynourmin » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:14 am

asdf2017 wrote:I want to be living comfortably while helping people at the same time.


Most lawyers are not both living comfortably and helping people, though, you realize that, right?

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby Redfactor » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:45 am

There is a ton of terrible advice in this thread, and it's mostly by 0L's who have no idea what they're taking about.

OP is open to a lot of various legal positions. Not once did OP imply that s/he wasn't interested in doing legal work. All the things that OP is open to are obtainable from Illinois, and news flash, it's what the majority of attorneys in the US do.

The idea that lawyers don't help people is ridiculous. OP can do wills/trusts/estate planning, small business legal work, immigration law, civil plaintiff or defense work, employment law, or criminal -- or a host of other areas and work with/for people, not some corporate entity.

I get trying to help people think about their future, but wanting to do private practice but not biglaw-or-bust does not suggest someone hasn't thought things out.

OP, a free ride at Illinois sounds like a great option for your aspirations if you're looking to practice in the region.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby UVA2B » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:53 am

Redfactor wrote:There is a ton of terrible advice in this thread, and it's mostly by 0L's who have no idea what they're taking about.

OP is open to a lot of various legal positions. Not once did OP imply that s/he wasn't interested in doing legal work. All the things that OP is open to are obtainable from Illinois, and news flash, it's what the majority of attorneys in the US do.

The idea that lawyers don't help people is ridiculous. OP can do wills/trusts/estate planning, small business legal work, immigration law, civil plaintiff or defense work, employment law, or criminal -- or a host of other areas and work with/for people, not some corporate entity.

I get trying to help people think about their future, but wanting to do private practice but not biglaw-or-bust does not suggest someone hasn't thought things out.

OP, a free ride at Illinois sounds like a great option for your aspirations if you're looking to practice in the region.


Ok, quite a bit to unpack here. They said they wanted to be highly paid shortly after graduation. Do you know what that means? A big firm. Small firm lawyers can make good money, but only after building a book of business, which requires a unique brand of entrepreneurial ability outside of being a capable lawyer and plenty of time.

Lawyers help people for sure, but doing the type of work you're talking about (outside elite estate planning and trusts that happens at big firms) will not be highly paid. If that's the primary goal, then it won't work out well.

A free ride at Illinois is a great option with a realistic outcome in mind. It's possible to get highly paid work out of Illinois, but it's not likely. What is most likely is the low-paid work mentioned above. That's not horrible because debt would be minimal, but don't pretend like solely wanting to be well-paid and going to Illinois for law school is well thought out.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:35 am

Redfactor wrote:There is a ton of terrible advice in this thread, and it's mostly by 0L's who have no idea what they're taking about.


Sure. Except for the part about it mostly being 0Ls. And except for the part about it being terrible advice. But the rest of your post is totally on point. Except for the majority of it being a nonsensical rant about something completely unrelated to the OP's stated "goals".

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:15 pm

Sounds like you are just in it for the money. Fuck dood if you wanna be rich law is the wrong way. Go to Silicon Valley and start a business.

Under no circumstances should you go to northwestern with zero scholarship. I had like 260k debt and I graduated like 7 years before you will. It'll probably cost you well over 300k. Not worth it.

Illinois with full ride is a great deal for law school. But do you really want to be a lawyer.

I would find another plan if I were you.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby star fox » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:22 pm

That's too much debt for Northwestern. If you're fine with the idea of not doing BigLaw but still doing law, then I think Illinois is fine. Illinois still gives around a 1/4 shot at a big Chicago firm, but you obviously gotta have contingencies in place like doing small firm work or local government.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby curry1 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Sounds like you are just in it for the money. Fuck dood if you wanna be rich law is the wrong way. Go to Silicon Valley and start a business.

Under no circumstances should you go to northwestern with zero scholarship. I had like 260k debt and I graduated like 7 years before you will. It'll probably cost you well over 300k. Not worth it.

Illinois with full ride is a great deal for law school. But do you really want to be a lawyer.

I would find another plan if I were you.


Just do SV start-up is probably the dumbest TLS trope ever. I can't believe people seriously advise others to waste years of their life making nothing and with the extremely likely outcome of never getting any payoff. Agree that OP doesn't have fantastic options and should consider not going to law school/retaking though.

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Re: Northwestern Sticker vs Illinois $$$

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:30 pm

curry1 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Sounds like you are just in it for the money. Fuck dood if you wanna be rich law is the wrong way. Go to Silicon Valley and start a business.

Under no circumstances should you go to northwestern with zero scholarship. I had like 260k debt and I graduated like 7 years before you will. It'll probably cost you well over 300k. Not worth it.

Illinois with full ride is a great deal for law school. But do you really want to be a lawyer.

I would find another plan if I were you.


Just do SV start-up is probably the dumbest TLS trope ever. I can't believe people seriously advise others to waste years of their life making nothing and with the extremely likely outcome of never getting any payoff. Agree that OP doesn't have fantastic options and should consider not going to law school/retaking though.


Not nearly as dumb as a website where most people spend a quarte rmnillion dollars to work for free for 3 years to get a corporate salary man job.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



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