Berkeley ($$$$) vs. Harvard Forum

[crookedsmile]

I'm facing a choice between either a full tuition scholarship at Berkeley or need-based aid at Harvard.

I don't have my need-based award at H yet but I'm guesstimating it should be max/near max (~40K grant + 50K loan). At Berkeley, I would only need to cover living expenses which are estimated (by them) to be ~25K/year.

To add some context, I'm planning on doing BigLaw out of school, ideally in Southern California. I visited both campuses and liked both, but fell somewhat in love with Cambridge and the H campus, but I know financially, Berkeley probably makes more sense. I am a CA native and have never lived on the East Coast, though I don't think I'll hate the weather too much as I like the cold + snow.

Any thoughts, advice?

For posterity, I am a URM.

COA Estimates:
Berkeley: ~$75K
Harvard: ~$175K (assuming PI 1L summer + BigLaw 2L summer)

*edited to include COA

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Berkeley.

[Veil of Ignorance]

I'd go to Harvard.

[UVA2B]

Harvard is defensible if you liked it that much more than Berkeley. You're paying a premium for a boost in prestige, how much is that worth to you? Also, have you guesstimated your grants assuming Biglaw one or both summers?

[LHS17]

I'm facing a choice between either a full tuition scholarship at Berkeley or need-based aid at Harvard.

I don't have my need-based award at H yet but I'm guesstimating it should be max/near max (~40K grant + 50K loan). At Berkeley, I would only need to cover living expenses which are estimated (by them) to be ~25K/year.

To add some context, I'm planning on doing BigLaw out of school, ideally in Southern California. I visited both campuses and liked both, but fell somewhat in love with Cambridge and the H campus, but I know financially, Berkeley probably makes more sense. I am a CA native and have never lived on the East Coast, though I don't think I'll hate the weather too much as I like the cold + snow.

Any thoughts, advice?

For posterity, I am a URM.

Have you considered negotiating with Berkeley (informally) preferential access to the 5 spots they have for 3Ls to study a full year at Harvard? It won't get you the Harvard degree, but a unique story to market.

[luckyirish13]

Geez, a full ride to Berkeley and probably a big scholarship to Harvard? You must be a genius. What were your LSAT/GPA?

That being said, either Berkeley or Harvard will set you up to work in California, although Berkeley is a little more focused on Northern California. Honestly you can't go wrong with either option. Probably wait and see what Harvard gives you. If they give you a full ride or near full ride, take that and never look back. You'll be set for life. If they give you 3/5's or less, then go with Berkeley. At least that would be my thought process.

[Rigo]

What are you estimating your COA's to be? Your H aid will get fucked up 2L (if 1L SA) and 3L if you work biglaw, no?

So Berkeley $75k debt
Harvard $150k+??? debt

[crookedsmile]

Harvard is defensible if you liked it that much more than Berkeley. You're paying a premium for a boost in prestige, how much is that worth to you? Also, have you guesstimated your grants assuming Biglaw one or both summers?

I'm guesstimating first year COA only since I believe it gets recalculated every year with your summer earnings factored in. In other words, it'll be pricey.

[LoganCouture]

Your aid award will get reduced quite a bit (by 90% of your post tax income less a 7800 living allowance) if you get a biglaw SA. Just something to keep in mind for 3L and possibly 2L if you snag a 1L SA.

I would choose Berkeley FWIW but you should update your post with full COA numbers if you can estimate them.

[Rigo]

Probably wait and see what Harvard gives you. If they give you a full ride or near full ride, take that and never look back. You'll be set for life.

Uhh Harvard doesn't give full rides. Even if OP gets max aid, Harvard will still cost twice as much as Berkeley.

[crookedsmile]

What are you estimating your COA's to be? Your H aid will get fucked up 2L (if 1L SA) and 3L if you work biglaw, no?

So Berkeley $75k debt
Harvard $150k+??? debt

Yup, this is my big (huge) concern. I'd probably want to do PI 1L summer to test the waters but would most likely do BigLaw 2L summer which would surely tack on another 30K(?) in debt. So I'm estimating it's probably a difference of about ~100K before interest between the two.

[luckyirish13]

Probably wait and see what Harvard gives you. If they give you a full ride or near full ride, take that and never look back. You'll be set for life.

Uhh Harvard doesn't give full rides. Even if OP gets max aid, Harvard will still cost twice as much as Berkeley.

Oh you're right. I got overexcited at "max/near max" lol.

[UVA2B]

What are you estimating your COA's to be? Your H aid will get fucked up 2L (if 1L SA) and 3L if you work biglaw, no?

So Berkeley $75k debt
Harvard $150k+??? debt

Yup, this is my big (huge) concern. I'd probably want to do PI 1L summer to test the waters but would most likely do BigLaw 2L summer which would surely tack on another 30K(?) in debt. So I'm estimating it's probably a difference of about ~100K before interest between the two.

Wow, didn't realize it would mess with the calculations that badly. I retract my defensible comment. It's not to me.

[hammy393]

What are you estimating your COA's to be? Your H aid will get fucked up 2L (if 1L SA) and 3L if you work biglaw, no?

So Berkeley $75k debt
Harvard $150k+??? debt

Your summer income at biglaw will NOT affect the loan though - only affects the grant. Your personal contribution goes up. Essentially, you aren't making money that summer (because HLS will reduce your grant by asking you to instead pay out of pocket) but your *loan* will stay the same.

[Rigo]

Anecdotes, but I have friends at Harvard who now regret not taking the money elsewhere.
Personally I'd go Berkeley since you are from CA and want CA biglaw. I can't see any doors you seek that would be closed by you not going to Harvard. Truth is you'll likely end up in the exact same place from both schools, so why not save the money?

Congratulations though. You won your cycle.

[LoganCouture]

What are you estimating your COA's to be? Your H aid will get fucked up 2L (if 1L SA) and 3L if you work biglaw, no?

So Berkeley $75k debt
Harvard $150k+??? debt

Yup, this is my big (huge) concern. I'd probably want to do PI 1L summer to test the waters but would most likely do BigLaw 2L summer which would surely tack on another 30K(?) in debt. So I'm estimating it's probably a difference of about ~100K before interest between the two.

Assuming H aid is 40k/40k/20k for 1L/2L/3L (a $20K aid reduction for biglaw 2L SA, no aid reduction 2L year) and using the data and calculator from LST, I'm getting ~$90K debt at repayment from Cal and ~$200K at H (taking into account interest and such).

These absolute COA figures are likely off because this is assuming 0 SA money put towards school but it would reduce debt at either place so it's kind of a wash when looking at the numbers for cost comparison purposes.

Edit: For clarity

[Po$eidon]

Berkeley might very well be the stingiest Top 13 school so you're VERY lucky. But, on the other hand, Berk's biglaw hiring isn't too hot. If you do well at Berk and get biglaw it will be more than worth it. However, that's not guaranteed whereas H will virtually guarantee Biglaw and help more with whatever else you may want. Tricky choice but I'd lean Berk. (PS How wealthy is your fam? - I'd guess not as you're getting max H aid or close)

[rpupkin]

Assuming H aid is 40/40/20 and using the data and calculator from LST, I'm getting ~$90K debt at repayment from Cal and ~$200K at H (taking into account interest and such). This is assuming 0 SA money put towards school but it would reduce debt at either place so it's kind of a wash.

Actually, I'm not sure it's a total wash, as I believe HLS still reduces need-based aid when you get a SA salary. I don't think it's a straight one-to-one correlation, but OP could lose another $10K - $20K of need-based aid if the planned SA happens.

[ambrajdurbra131313]

My vote is for Cal. Congrats on the great options!

[LoganCouture]

Assuming H aid is 40/40/20 and using the data and calculator from LST, I'm getting ~$90K debt at repayment from Cal and ~$200K at H (taking into account interest and such). This is assuming 0 SA money put towards school but it would reduce debt at either place so it's kind of a wash.

Actually, I'm not sure it's a total wash, as I believe HLS still reduces need-based aid when you get a SA salary. I don't think it's a straight one-to-one correlation, but OP could lose another $10K - $20K of need-based aid if the planned SA happens.

Sorry - I meant that I plugged in 40k/40k/20k for aid 1L/2L/3L so my numbers are assuming a $20K aid reduction (may be overshooting it though) based on SA income. I was just acknowledging that my absolute COA numbers are off because SA money that results in a decrease in aid will presumably not be a complete 20K loan as part of that money could go directly to paying the school (but as it also could go directly towards paying Cal, it's not necessarily bad that I didn't reduce debt at repayment by SA income - that's what I meant by "a wash").

[quiver]

Anecdotes, but I have friends at Harvard who now regret not taking the money elsewhere.
Personally I'd go Berkeley since you are from CA and want CA biglaw. I can't see any doors you seek that would be closed by you not going to Harvard. Truth is you'll likely end up in the exact same place from both schools, so why not save the money?

Congratulations though. You won your cycle.

Agree with this. With your only goal as CA biglaw, the full ride is the way to go.

[RParadela]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

[BoyJord]

Anecdotes, but I have friends at Harvard who now regret not taking the money elsewhere.
Personally I'd go Berkeley since you are from CA and want CA biglaw. I can't see any doors you seek that would be closed by you not going to Harvard. Truth is you'll likely end up in the exact same place from both schools, so why not save the money?

Congratulations though. You won your cycle.

I would go Berkeley and agree that you have the ideal predicament ahead of you. You will succeed regardless of your decision

[rpupkin]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

[lymenheimer]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

And lol at them being considered anything other than "generic Biglaw". Don't listen to 0Ls, OP. I'm at not-harvard and plenty of my friends have open doors to Latham and Skadden, even in CA.