Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price Forum
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Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
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Last edited by carsondalywashere on Mon May 08, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 9 times in total.
- trebekismyhero
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Tough call. If you can get an additional $10k a year from NU, I would do that.
Maybe retake the LSAT in June for an additional point or two, might be able to get more money from NU that way as well.
Maybe retake the LSAT in June for an additional point or two, might be able to get more money from NU that way as well.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Where is the money coming from? Savings? Rich parents?
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
PMedtrebekismyhero wrote:Tough call. If you can get an additional $10k a year from NU, I would do that.
Maybe retake the LSAT in June for an additional point or two, might be able to get more money from NU that way as well.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Both (possibly grandparents as well). Financing NU is up in the air though, as my parents aren't thrilled with that price point and believe WashU will afford me the same opportunities.Rigo wrote:Where is the money coming from? Savings? Rich parents?
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
I mean, NU sends 2.5X as many students on a percentage to Biglaw, which is the default for people w/o specific goals. (25% versus 62% according to law school transparency). It's overall "employment score" is way higher. $95k of debt w/ no job to me is way worse than $200k with a job.carsondalywashere wrote:Both (possibly grandparents as well). Financing NU is up in the air though, as my parents aren't thrilled with that price point and believe WashU will afford me the same opportunities.Rigo wrote:Where is the money coming from? Savings? Rich parents?
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
I wouldn't have any debt if I went to WashU.onionz wrote:I mean, NU sends 2.5X as many students on a percentage to Biglaw, which is the default for people w/o specific goals. (25% versus 62% according to law school transparency). It's overall "employment score" is way higher. $95k of debt w/ no job to me is way worse than $200k with a job.carsondalywashere wrote:Both (possibly grandparents as well). Financing NU is up in the air though, as my parents aren't thrilled with that price point and believe WashU will afford me the same opportunities.Rigo wrote:Where is the money coming from? Savings? Rich parents?
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
WUSTL 2L.carsondalywashere wrote:Northwestern COA - 215k (negotiating for a bigger scholarship, but as of right now will be at least 65k in loans, if not substantially more)
WashU COA - 95k (no loans)
Is Northwestern worth the extra cost?
I don't have super specific goals....big law litigation, in-house corporate counsel, or mid-law/boutique law firm are all welcome options. My worst fears are being unemployed at graduation or settling for a small firm/finding out I hate big law but can't leave because of debt.
I'm from Saint Louis and welcome the possibility of going back and practicing there, but it's far from my dream city. I'm pretty flexible in where I work and practice (mostly opposed to LA because of traffic and NYC because of the big law culture there, otherwise I'm game to live and work pretty much anywhere).
LSAT is 169 and GPA is barely above median at WashU, between median and 25th percent tile at Northwestern. Also have some fairly unimpressive work experience.
Edit - I was waitlisted at the majority of schools I applied to.
I am waiting on money from Georgetown, but it'd have to be pretty close to WashU for me to pull the trigger to attend there.
I think WUSTL is a nice middle road for your goals here.
You stated in your original post that you're fearful of (1) unemployment; (2) working for a small firm; and (3) being golden-handcuffed to big law.
Going to WUSTL eliminates the golden handcuffs because you won't have debt. If you happen to get big law, which is a possible from WUSTL but uncertain, then everything you make will be gravy. If you truly despise big law then you can do your two years and get out.
WUSTL also provides you with a good chance of avoiding unemployment and "small-firm employment" (the horror!) due to the fact you're from STL. People with demonstrable ties to St. Louis, like you, have a tremendous leg-up over the coasties that come here. People with ties to the area seem to do really well with the big firms here: Armstrong Teasdale, Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, etc.
Given your ties, and given that you network in St. Louis during 1L and take the job search seriously, I think that WUSTL makes sense.
Having said that, if Northwestern will put you only 65K in debt, then I think NU is worth it. 65K really isn't a lot to pay off on a big law salary. And are you factoring in 2L, and potentially 1L, summer earnings? If you land a summer associate position you could make $30,000 per summer and apply a portion of those earnings to your loans/tuition. Even if you don't apply any summer associate money toward loans, you can still pay off $65K in a year or two working big law and be out.
I think WUSTL is a fine choice and would set you up nicely with no debt, but it is hard for me to recommend WUSTL over NU (and its far-superior placement) when the price difference is a mere $65K. NU also gives you greater portability to land in your "dream city." You can get any city (DC, NYC, LA, KC, Minny, Dallas, San Fran, etc.) from WUSTL but it requires elite 1L grades.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
First, thanks for the response! It sounds like I can't really make a bad choice in this case.acr wrote:WUSTL 2L.carsondalywashere wrote:Northwestern COA - 215k (negotiating for a bigger scholarship, but as of right now will be at least 65k in loans, if not substantially more)
WashU COA - 95k (no loans)
Is Northwestern worth the extra cost?
I don't have super specific goals....big law litigation, in-house corporate counsel, or mid-law/boutique law firm are all welcome options. My worst fears are being unemployed at graduation or settling for a small firm/finding out I hate big law but can't leave because of debt.
I'm from Saint Louis and welcome the possibility of going back and practicing there, but it's far from my dream city. I'm pretty flexible in where I work and practice (mostly opposed to LA because of traffic and NYC because of the big law culture there, otherwise I'm game to live and work pretty much anywhere).
LSAT is 169 and GPA is barely above median at WashU, between median and 25th percent tile at Northwestern. Also have some fairly unimpressive work experience.
Edit - I was waitlisted at the majority of schools I applied to.
I am waiting on money from Georgetown, but it'd have to be pretty close to WashU for me to pull the trigger to attend there.
I think WUSTL is a nice middle road for your goals here.
You stated in your original post that you're fearful of (1) unemployment; (2) working for a small firm; and (3) being golden-handcuffed to big law.
Going to WUSTL eliminates the golden handcuffs because you won't have debt. If you happen to get big law, which is a possible from WUSTL but uncertain, then everything you make will be gravy. If you truly despise big law then you can do your two years and get out.
WUSTL also provides you with a good chance of avoiding unemployment and "small-firm employment" (the horror!) due to the fact you're from STL. People with demonstrable ties to St. Louis, like you, have a tremendous leg-up over the coasties that come here. People with ties to the area seem to do really well with the big firms here: Armstrong Teasdale, Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, etc.
Given your ties, and given that you network in St. Louis during 1L and take the job search seriously, I think that WUSTL makes sense.
Having said that, if Northwestern will put you only 65K in debt, then I think NU is worth it. 65K really isn't a lot to pay off on a big law salary. And are you factoring in 2L, and potentially 1L, summer earnings? If you land a summer associate position you could make $30,000 per summer and apply a portion of those earnings to your loans/tuition. Even if you don't apply any summer associate money toward loans, you can still pay off $65K in a year or two working big law and be out.
I think WUSTL is a fine choice and would set you up nicely with no debt, but it is hard for me to recommend WUSTL over NU (and its far-superior placement) when the price difference is a mere $65K. NU also gives you greater portability to land in your "dream city." You can get any city (DC, NYC, LA, KC, Minny, Dallas, San Fran, etc.) from WUSTL but it requires elite 1L grades.
The reason I am (mostly) opposed to working in a small firm is that I don't want to spend three years in school only to come out and work a job where I am either making the same amount (or less) than I am earning now. I am not saying I want to be an attorney purely for money, but it would be a waste of time and money not to see some financial gain.
Also, I did not account for summer associate salaries. And I've heard STL firms do hire 1L associates, so I'm wondering if I went to Northwestern it would be easier to snag one of those?
In addition, I am a pretty stressful person by nature, so I wonder if the fact that NU doesn't rank and its bigger big law cushion would alleviate some of that pressure?
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
NU would alleviate pressure in the sense that your grades can fall deeper into the class (e.g. median) and you'll still have opportunities. There's less pressure to get top-tier grades. On the other hand, NU might increase your stress because you'll have the debt hanging over your head. Even though grades are a bigger factor at WUSTL, you might feel less pressure because you'd have nothing to lose money wise. Some people feel less pressure under those circumstances. It just depends.carsondalywashere wrote:First, thanks for the response! It sounds like I can't really make a bad choice in this case.acr wrote:WUSTL 2L.carsondalywashere wrote:Northwestern COA - 215k (negotiating for a bigger scholarship, but as of right now will be at least 65k in loans, if not substantially more)
WashU COA - 95k (no loans)
Is Northwestern worth the extra cost?
I don't have super specific goals....big law litigation, in-house corporate counsel, or mid-law/boutique law firm are all welcome options. My worst fears are being unemployed at graduation or settling for a small firm/finding out I hate big law but can't leave because of debt.
I'm from Saint Louis and welcome the possibility of going back and practicing there, but it's far from my dream city. I'm pretty flexible in where I work and practice (mostly opposed to LA because of traffic and NYC because of the big law culture there, otherwise I'm game to live and work pretty much anywhere).
LSAT is 169 and GPA is barely above median at WashU, between median and 25th percent tile at Northwestern. Also have some fairly unimpressive work experience.
Edit - I was waitlisted at the majority of schools I applied to.
I am waiting on money from Georgetown, but it'd have to be pretty close to WashU for me to pull the trigger to attend there.
I think WUSTL is a nice middle road for your goals here.
You stated in your original post that you're fearful of (1) unemployment; (2) working for a small firm; and (3) being golden-handcuffed to big law.
Going to WUSTL eliminates the golden handcuffs because you won't have debt. If you happen to get big law, which is a possible from WUSTL but uncertain, then everything you make will be gravy. If you truly despise big law then you can do your two years and get out.
WUSTL also provides you with a good chance of avoiding unemployment and "small-firm employment" (the horror!) due to the fact you're from STL. People with demonstrable ties to St. Louis, like you, have a tremendous leg-up over the coasties that come here. People with ties to the area seem to do really well with the big firms here: Armstrong Teasdale, Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, etc.
Given your ties, and given that you network in St. Louis during 1L and take the job search seriously, I think that WUSTL makes sense.
Having said that, if Northwestern will put you only 65K in debt, then I think NU is worth it. 65K really isn't a lot to pay off on a big law salary. And are you factoring in 2L, and potentially 1L, summer earnings? If you land a summer associate position you could make $30,000 per summer and apply a portion of those earnings to your loans/tuition. Even if you don't apply any summer associate money toward loans, you can still pay off $65K in a year or two working big law and be out.
I think WUSTL is a fine choice and would set you up nicely with no debt, but it is hard for me to recommend WUSTL over NU (and its far-superior placement) when the price difference is a mere $65K. NU also gives you greater portability to land in your "dream city." You can get any city (DC, NYC, LA, KC, Minny, Dallas, San Fran, etc.) from WUSTL but it requires elite 1L grades.
The reason I am (mostly) opposed to working in a small firm is that I don't want to spend three years in school only to come out and work a job where I am either making the same amount (or less) than I am earning now. I am not saying I want to be an attorney purely for money, but it would be a waste of time and money not to see some financial gain.
Also, I did not account for summer associate salaries. And I've heard STL firms do hire 1L associates, so I'm wondering if I went to Northwestern it would be easier to snag one of those?
In addition, I am a pretty stressful person by nature, so I wonder if the fact that NU doesn't rank and its bigger big law cushion would alleviate some of that pressure?
And I'm not sure whether NU would make getting a 1L SA at an STL firm easier. 1L SA's are difficult to get in general and you shouldn't bet the farm on getting one. NU is the superior school, but I'm not sure if it's superior to WUSTL in the STL market. The thing you have to remember about STL firms is that they are super insecure about ties. In order to land any SA at an STL firm from NU I think you would need to make a convincing case that you're serious about coming back and staying in STL permanently. The fact that you're from here would definitely help. The worst thing you could do is give off the energy that STL is some sort of "safe landing spot" for you. Firms here will pick up on that and it'll do you in.
Beyond that getting a 1L SA comes down to a lot of things. It requires excellent 1L Fall performance because those are the only grades the firms will see prior to a hiring decision. Ties and connections help, being a URM helps, having prior work experience helps...sometimes it's just luck or being the right fit, who knows.
- jjcorvino
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
It seems like your goal is biglaw, as you do not want to make less than you were making before going to school. Big/midlaw seems like the only two options that start out at a high salary. If that is the case, I would choose NU. WashU is great (I applied and have a family friend that went), but if you are set on making good money then NU is the way to go.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Awesome, thanks again for more great info!acr wrote:NU would alleviate pressure in the sense that your grades can fall deeper into the class (e.g. median) and you'll still have opportunities. There's less pressure to get top-tier grades. On the other hand, NU might increase your stress because you'll have the debt hanging over your head. Even though grades are a bigger factor at WUSTL, you might feel less pressure because you'd have nothing to lose money wise. Some people feel less pressure under those circumstances. It just depends.carsondalywashere wrote:First, thanks for the response! It sounds like I can't really make a bad choice in this case.acr wrote:WUSTL 2L.carsondalywashere wrote:Northwestern COA - 215k (negotiating for a bigger scholarship, but as of right now will be at least 65k in loans, if not substantially more)
WashU COA - 95k (no loans)
Is Northwestern worth the extra cost?
I don't have super specific goals....big law litigation, in-house corporate counsel, or mid-law/boutique law firm are all welcome options. My worst fears are being unemployed at graduation or settling for a small firm/finding out I hate big law but can't leave because of debt.
I'm from Saint Louis and welcome the possibility of going back and practicing there, but it's far from my dream city. I'm pretty flexible in where I work and practice (mostly opposed to LA because of traffic and NYC because of the big law culture there, otherwise I'm game to live and work pretty much anywhere).
LSAT is 169 and GPA is barely above median at WashU, between median and 25th percent tile at Northwestern. Also have some fairly unimpressive work experience.
Edit - I was waitlisted at the majority of schools I applied to.
I am waiting on money from Georgetown, but it'd have to be pretty close to WashU for me to pull the trigger to attend there.
I think WUSTL is a nice middle road for your goals here.
You stated in your original post that you're fearful of (1) unemployment; (2) working for a small firm; and (3) being golden-handcuffed to big law.
Going to WUSTL eliminates the golden handcuffs because you won't have debt. If you happen to get big law, which is a possible from WUSTL but uncertain, then everything you make will be gravy. If you truly despise big law then you can do your two years and get out.
WUSTL also provides you with a good chance of avoiding unemployment and "small-firm employment" (the horror!) due to the fact you're from STL. People with demonstrable ties to St. Louis, like you, have a tremendous leg-up over the coasties that come here. People with ties to the area seem to do really well with the big firms here: Armstrong Teasdale, Bryan Cave, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, etc.
Given your ties, and given that you network in St. Louis during 1L and take the job search seriously, I think that WUSTL makes sense.
Having said that, if Northwestern will put you only 65K in debt, then I think NU is worth it. 65K really isn't a lot to pay off on a big law salary. And are you factoring in 2L, and potentially 1L, summer earnings? If you land a summer associate position you could make $30,000 per summer and apply a portion of those earnings to your loans/tuition. Even if you don't apply any summer associate money toward loans, you can still pay off $65K in a year or two working big law and be out.
I think WUSTL is a fine choice and would set you up nicely with no debt, but it is hard for me to recommend WUSTL over NU (and its far-superior placement) when the price difference is a mere $65K. NU also gives you greater portability to land in your "dream city." You can get any city (DC, NYC, LA, KC, Minny, Dallas, San Fran, etc.) from WUSTL but it requires elite 1L grades.
The reason I am (mostly) opposed to working in a small firm is that I don't want to spend three years in school only to come out and work a job where I am either making the same amount (or less) than I am earning now. I am not saying I want to be an attorney purely for money, but it would be a waste of time and money not to see some financial gain.
Also, I did not account for summer associate salaries. And I've heard STL firms do hire 1L associates, so I'm wondering if I went to Northwestern it would be easier to snag one of those?
In addition, I am a pretty stressful person by nature, so I wonder if the fact that NU doesn't rank and its bigger big law cushion would alleviate some of that pressure?
And I'm not sure whether NU would make getting a 1L SA at an STL firm easier. 1L SA's are difficult to get in general and you shouldn't bet the farm on getting one. NU is the superior school, but I'm not sure if it's superior to WUSTL in the STL market. The thing you have to remember about STL firms is that they are super insecure about ties. In order to land any SA at an STL firm from NU I think you would need to make a convincing case that you're serious about coming back and staying in STL permanently. The fact that you're from here would definitely help. The worst thing you could do is give off the energy that STL is some sort of "safe landing spot" for you. Firms here will pick up on that and it'll do you in.
Beyond that getting a 1L SA comes down to a lot of things. It requires excellent 1L Fall performance because those are the only grades the firms will see prior to a hiring decision. Ties and connections help, being a URM helps, having prior work experience helps...sometimes it's just luck or being the right fit, who knows.
It seems like I need to determine whether living with the possibility of working as an attorney at a small firm without any debt versus having some debt but a likely big law gig is better for me.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
I'm leaning towards this direction, and will be attending ASW this weekend; hopefully that will clear some things up.jjcorvino wrote:It seems like your goal is biglaw, as you do not want to make less than you were making before going to school. Big/midlaw seems like the only two options that start out at a high salary. If that is the case, I would choose NU. WashU is great (I applied and have a family friend that went), but if you are set on making good money then NU is the way to go.
However, if I commit to NU, I am not 100% certain that my parents will give any financial support. I imagine they will, but if they don't, I will be looking at six figures of loans. I've showed them the stats, and explained how law school grading works, etc. They still think there isn't any reason I shouldn't expect to be top 20% at WashU, nor understand my interest in not working at a small firm.
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- TatteredDignity
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Sometimes an illustration can help. Hand them a six-sided die and ask them to bet $100k on predicting the roll.carsondalywashere wrote:They still think there isn't any reason I shouldn't expect to be top 20% at WashU, nor understand my interest in not working at a small firm.
Me and one of my WUSTL classmates both had LSAT scores well above the school's 75th percentile. Our 1L performances were night and day.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Noted haha. I was just thinking how this process is going to force me to improve my persuasion skills.TatteredDignity wrote:Sometimes an illustration can help. Hand them a six-sided die and ask them to bet $100k on predicting the roll.carsondalywashere wrote:They still think there isn't any reason I shouldn't expect to be top 20% at WashU, nor understand my interest in not working at a small firm.
Me and one of my WUSTL classmates both had LSAT scores well above the school's 75th percentile. Our 1L performances were night and day.
- PeanutsNJam
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
I think NU is worth 100k more than WUSTL over 3 years to be honest, but there are rumors (that I as a wustl 2L am unfamiliar with) that Wustl's BL+FC skyrocketed, so if that's true, that changes things... idk when the LST numbers come out for C/O 2016.
The fact of the matter is NU medians can get biglaw with little trouble, but WUSTL medians have to claw for it.
The fact of the matter is NU medians can get biglaw with little trouble, but WUSTL medians have to claw for it.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
If NU admissions officers are reading this, a little more money would go a long wayPeanutsNJam wrote:I think NU is worth 100k more than WUSTL over 3 years to be honest, but there are rumors (that I as a wustl 2L am unfamiliar with) that Wustl's BL+FC skyrocketed, so if that's true, that changes things... idk when the LST numbers come out for C/O 2016.
The fact of the matter is NU medians can get biglaw with little trouble, but WUSTL medians have to claw for it.
I wonder if those stats are indicative of an upswing in the market of if WashU is pounding the pavement hard
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Bump for the evening crowd
- UVA2B
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Without an NU bump in scholarship, WUSTL is the better option. I'd agree that NU is worth objectively more than WUSTL, but not that much. I'd personally be willing to pull the trigger on NU for $150k-$175k debt at graduation (I think), but I'd still be seriously thinking about WUSTL for less debt. Debt is a scary, scary mother when it becomes real and $2000/month is coming out of your post-tax paycheck for a decade.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
I am very debt-adverse, but after visiting NU this weekend, I feel like I'm going to regret not going there (especially if I do not get my desired job outcome from WashU). With that said, I don't think I can count on getting more money; apparently the average debt level for NU students is 150kUVA2B wrote:Without an NU bump in scholarship, WUSTL is the better option. I'd agree that NU is worth objectively more than WUSTL, but not that much. I'd personally be willing to pull the trigger on NU for $150k-$175k debt at graduation (I think), but I'd still be seriously thinking about WUSTL for less debt. Debt is a scary, scary mother when it becomes real and $2000/month is coming out of your post-tax paycheck for a decade.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Gtown just gave me a $20,000 a year scholarship. I'm sure rent would eat the additional 5k they gave me though
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... -16-17.pdfcarsondalywashere wrote: Georgetown - can't find their COA numbers, but they gave me a $20,000 a year scholarship
So COA without interest will be just under $200k.
I'd take Northwestern over that for biglaw anyday.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Same.Rigo wrote:https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissio ... -16-17.pdfcarsondalywashere wrote: Georgetown - can't find their COA numbers, but they gave me a $20,000 a year scholarship
So COA without interest will be just under $200k.
I'd take Northwestern over that for biglaw anyday.
I need to determine if I can live with debt or not. Or retake.
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
So WashU does have a 45% big law, fed clerk number. Does this make spending the money on NU unjustified?
- TatteredDignity
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Re: Northwestern vs. WashU; huge disparity in price
Where are you getting that number? Seems pretty rosy.carsondalywashere wrote:So WashU does have a 45% big law, fed clerk number. Does this make spending the money on NU unjustified?
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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