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Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:02 pm
by goldenbear2020
RParadela wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
But why aren't UVA and Duke more prestigious than Harvard? If the former schools give you better employment options, aren't people who say Harvard is better just objectively wrong? Why do people give Harvard higher standing? It just makes no sense to me.


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll bite. Prestige is marginally based on employment statistics. Harvard Law produces presidents, Attorney Generals, Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Representatives, and Senators. UVA and Duke can't even compete in those regards. Combined they have 2 SCOTUS justices (one of whom didn't even graduate UVA and the other served on the court over 70 years ago), two presidents (Wilson didn't even graduate from UVA Law, and Nixon resigned as to not get impeached), and a few Reps./Senators I imagine, but those are few in number compared to Harvard. Plus, Harvard Law gets the added bonus of the prestige produced by the Harvard UG (where some of the smartest/wealthiest students have gone for 100s of years), and Harvard Grad (where some of the most preeminent scholars, doctors, and business people have gone). UVA and Duke have what? Strong graduate history programs, okay business schools, and the latter has a good medical school. That's about it. Harvard Law also gets a ton of great PI/Gov't jobs that are prestigious that don't fit inside the really limited (and thus dumb) BL + FC box that TLS salivates over.

I think it's pretty clear why everyone views Harvard as objectively better, regardless of what a couple points on BL + FC employment percentages say.


the lay prestige meter, which is the only thing that matters, reads as follows:

Harvard >>> Duke > NYU > UVA


Lol NYU has 0 lay prestige. NYU has the least lay prestige out of the T13 IMO

I agree NYU has low lay prestige, but it should beat at least Chicago, Virginia, Berkeley, and maybe Penn (State?).

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:05 pm
by rpupkin
TLS already has a thread for the "lay prestige" discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=275065&start=1575

Please limit your "lay prestige" observations to that thread. If you do not comply, I will use my considerable influence to get the mods to suspend your account and/or de-anonymize all of your past anonymous posts. This is your only warning.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:06 pm
by RParadela
goldenbear2020 wrote:
RParadela wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
But why aren't UVA and Duke more prestigious than Harvard? If the former schools give you better employment options, aren't people who say Harvard is better just objectively wrong? Why do people give Harvard higher standing? It just makes no sense to me.


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll bite. Prestige is marginally based on employment statistics. Harvard Law produces presidents, Attorney Generals, Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Representatives, and Senators. UVA and Duke can't even compete in those regards. Combined they have 2 SCOTUS justices (one of whom didn't even graduate UVA and the other served on the court over 70 years ago), two presidents (Wilson didn't even graduate from UVA Law, and Nixon resigned as to not get impeached), and a few Reps./Senators I imagine, but those are few in number compared to Harvard. Plus, Harvard Law gets the added bonus of the prestige produced by the Harvard UG (where some of the smartest/wealthiest students have gone for 100s of years), and Harvard Grad (where some of the most preeminent scholars, doctors, and business people have gone). UVA and Duke have what? Strong graduate history programs, okay business schools, and the latter has a good medical school. That's about it. Harvard Law also gets a ton of great PI/Gov't jobs that are prestigious that don't fit inside the really limited (and thus dumb) BL + FC box that TLS salivates over.

I think it's pretty clear why everyone views Harvard as objectively better, regardless of what a couple points on BL + FC employment percentages say.


the lay prestige meter, which is the only thing that matters, reads as follows:

Harvard >>> Duke > NYU > UVA


Lol NYU has 0 lay prestige. NYU has the least lay prestige out of the T13 IMO

I agree NYU has low lay prestige, but it should beat at least Chicago, Virginia, Berkeley, and maybe Penn (State?).


Definitely no, no, no, and definitely not

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:07 pm
by Toni V
lawlzschool wrote:
Thelaw23 wrote:
Toni V wrote:IVY League LST breakout
………………..Employ% • Big Law%

UPENN 89.8 • 66.3
CORNELL 89.6 • 62.8
COLUMBIA 87.2 • 73.6
HARVARD 85.7 • 51.8
YALE 81.2 • 38.5


Where's Princeton Law bruh


this past week i had someone ask me why i didnt apply to princeton law

"because... it doesn't...exist...?"

You can attend Princeton's law school...once you build a time machine.

The Law School at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton University) was a department of Princeton University from 1847 until 1852.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:12 pm
by RedPurpleBlue
Toni V wrote:
lawlzschool wrote:
Thelaw23 wrote:
Toni V wrote:IVY League LST breakout
………………..Employ% • Big Law%

UPENN 89.8 • 66.3
CORNELL 89.6 • 62.8
COLUMBIA 87.2 • 73.6
HARVARD 85.7 • 51.8
YALE 81.2 • 38.5


Where's Princeton Law bruh


this past week i had someone ask me why i didnt apply to princeton law

"because... it doesn't...exist...?"

You can attend Princeton's law school...once you build a time machine.

The Law School at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton University) was a department of Princeton University from 1847 until 1852.


That's the joke.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:18 pm
by Fiddlesticks
OP, Nebby, you've mis-ordered NYU. Should be behind both Stanford and Cornell.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:22 pm
by jbagelboy
buckiguy_sucks wrote:
grades?? wrote:How many presidents has Columbia law graduated?


University of Cincinnati College of Law and Albany Law School finally getting the respect they deserve on these fora


Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:23 pm
by rpupkin
UT's numbers are closer to Fordham's and BU's than to GULC's. It's ironic that TLS has recently bandied about the question of "does UT now belong in the T14?" It sounds like the better question is: "does UT even belong in the T20?"

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:24 pm
by curry1
jbagelboy wrote:
buckiguy_sucks wrote:
grades?? wrote:How many presidents has Columbia law graduated?


University of Cincinnati College of Law and Albany Law School finally getting the respect they deserve on these fora


Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:26 pm
by amta
rpupkin wrote:UT's numbers are closer to Fordham's and BU's than to GULC's. It's ironic that TLS has recently bandied about the question of "does UT now belong in the T14?" It sounds like the better question is: "does UT even belong in the T20?"


theres only so many big law jobs in texas.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:27 pm
by rpupkin
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:28 pm
by RSN
rpupkin wrote:
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.


Vicious but actually probably true at the time

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 pm
by curry1
rpupkin wrote:
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.


CLS = finishing school for trust fund dilettantes from the beginning

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:38 pm
by Pragmatic Gun
rpupkin wrote:
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:46 pm
by Lawcat11
Let's not forget that Samuel Tilden graduated from NYU, and was the true winner of the 1876 election.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:52 pm
by cavalier1138
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:What are the odds that Duke (77.7%) and UVA (76.9%) pass NYU (74.5%) in the rankings in the next few years?


Assuming you're serious, no chance at all.


Why though? Their BL+Clerk is a good bit higher. Even ud you include PI and Gov they're just like equal. Why is NYU even regarded more highly?


How are Duke and NYU "equal" in PI/gov placement?

NYU has a lower BL+FC number because a very large number of people go into PI.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:55 pm
by TLS_Dreamer
cavalier1138 wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:What are the odds that Duke (77.7%) and UVA (76.9%) pass NYU (74.5%) in the rankings in the next few years?


Assuming you're serious, no chance at all.


Why though? Their BL+Clerk is a good bit higher. Even ud you include PI and Gov they're just like equal. Why is NYU even regarded more highly?


How are Duke and NYU "equal" in PI/gov placement?

NYU has a lower BL+FC number because a very large number of people go into PI.


If you add BL+FC+PI+Gov Duke and NYU are very close. I don't remember the exact #s

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:00 pm
by cavalier1138
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:What are the odds that Duke (77.7%) and UVA (76.9%) pass NYU (74.5%) in the rankings in the next few years?


Assuming you're serious, no chance at all.


Why though? Their BL+Clerk is a good bit higher. Even ud you include PI and Gov they're just like equal. Why is NYU even regarded more highly?


How are Duke and NYU "equal" in PI/gov placement?

NYU has a lower BL+FC number because a very large number of people go into PI.


If you add BL+FC+PI+Gov Duke and NYU are very close. I don't remember the exact #s


No. Duke sends maybe 5% of its class into PI/gov each year. NYU sends 18-20%. There's only a 3% difference in BL/FC numbers, and NYU has over twice as many students.

Duke's a great school. But it's not going to displace NYU because of BL/FC placement. NYU has always had lower biglaw placement numbers because of PI.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:14 pm
by vcap180
I just wanted to see how fast I could derail this into a lay prestige shitshow. It actually took two separate posts to get anyone to bite, but once someone did, the rest went just as planned.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:16 pm
by jbagelboy
RSN wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.


Vicious but actually probably true at the time


Historically/factually speaking they left the school because prior to WWII it was far less important to actually receive a law degree, and students would satisfy the historical equivalent of 'graduated' once they were able to sit for the bar, whereupon they usually left. Also, 2 years of law school was frequently sufficient to receive the degree. Many famous 'alums' of law schools (including CLS, HLS and YLS) merely attended for a couple years circa 1900 and did not 'graduate' in the sense we think of today.

Alao technically speaking they received posthumous degrees.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:20 pm
by jb111
I've been working on a new metric:

BL+FC+PI+GOV+OTHER+UNEMP

Some surprising results that I won't get all the way into right here and now, but I can guarantee that you will be surprised at some of the schools tied for first (and last).

And I can confirm that NYU and Duke have exactly the same score under my system.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:23 pm
by Moneytrees
Any info for Emory, ND and Minnesota?

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:24 pm
by Po$eidon
goldenbear2020 wrote:
RParadela wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
But why aren't UVA and Duke more prestigious than Harvard? If the former schools give you better employment options, aren't people who say Harvard is better just objectively wrong? Why do people give Harvard higher standing? It just makes no sense to me.


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll bite. Prestige is marginally based on employment statistics. Harvard Law produces presidents, Attorney Generals, Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Representatives, and Senators. UVA and Duke can't even compete in those regards. Combined they have 2 SCOTUS justices (one of whom didn't even graduate UVA and the other served on the court over 70 years ago), two presidents (Wilson didn't even graduate from UVA Law, and Nixon resigned as to not get impeached), and a few Reps./Senators I imagine, but those are few in number compared to Harvard. Plus, Harvard Law gets the added bonus of the prestige produced by the Harvard UG (where some of the smartest/wealthiest students have gone for 100s of years), and Harvard Grad (where some of the most preeminent scholars, doctors, and business people have gone). UVA and Duke have what? Strong graduate history programs, okay business schools, and the latter has a good medical school. That's about it. Harvard Law also gets a ton of great PI/Gov't jobs that are prestigious that don't fit inside the really limited (and thus dumb) BL + FC box that TLS salivates over.

I think it's pretty clear why everyone views Harvard as objectively better, regardless of what a couple points on BL + FC employment percentages say.


the lay prestige meter, which is the only thing that matters, reads as follows:

Harvard >>> Duke > NYU > UVA


Lol NYU has 0 lay prestige. NYU has the least lay prestige out of the T13 IMO

I agree NYU has low lay prestige, but it should beat at least Chicago, Virginia, Berkeley, and maybe Penn (State?).


Definitely doesn't beat Berkeley (which has huge lay prestige) or Chicago (which has pretty significant lay prestige).

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:25 pm
by rpupkin
jbagelboy wrote:
RSN wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
curry1 wrote:Franklin Roosevelt and Teddy Roosevelt both went to Columbia law school.

Yeah, and both dropped out (TR after his first year and FDR after his second). Once they realized how little prestige CLS had compared to HLS and YLS, they knew it wasn't worth their time.


Vicious but actually probably true at the time


Historically/factually speaking they left the school because prior to WWII it was far less important to actually receive a law degree, and students would satisfy the historical equivalent of 'graduated' once they were able to sit for the bar, whereupon they usually left.

This is true, though TR in particular hated Columbia and left before the minimum of two years that most people put in.

Re: Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:30 pm
by vcap180
Po$eidon wrote:
goldenbear2020 wrote:
RParadela wrote:
vcap180 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
TLS_Dreamer wrote:
But why aren't UVA and Duke more prestigious than Harvard? If the former schools give you better employment options, aren't people who say Harvard is better just objectively wrong? Why do people give Harvard higher standing? It just makes no sense to me.


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'll bite. Prestige is marginally based on employment statistics. Harvard Law produces presidents, Attorney Generals, Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Representatives, and Senators. UVA and Duke can't even compete in those regards. Combined they have 2 SCOTUS justices (one of whom didn't even graduate UVA and the other served on the court over 70 years ago), two presidents (Wilson didn't even graduate from UVA Law, and Nixon resigned as to not get impeached), and a few Reps./Senators I imagine, but those are few in number compared to Harvard. Plus, Harvard Law gets the added bonus of the prestige produced by the Harvard UG (where some of the smartest/wealthiest students have gone for 100s of years), and Harvard Grad (where some of the most preeminent scholars, doctors, and business people have gone). UVA and Duke have what? Strong graduate history programs, okay business schools, and the latter has a good medical school. That's about it. Harvard Law also gets a ton of great PI/Gov't jobs that are prestigious that don't fit inside the really limited (and thus dumb) BL + FC box that TLS salivates over.

I think it's pretty clear why everyone views Harvard as objectively better, regardless of what a couple points on BL + FC employment percentages say.


the lay prestige meter, which is the only thing that matters, reads as follows:

Harvard >>> Duke > NYU > UVA


Lol NYU has 0 lay prestige. NYU has the least lay prestige out of the T13 IMO

I agree NYU has low lay prestige, but it should beat at least Chicago, Virginia, Berkeley, and maybe Penn (State?).


Definitely doesn't beat Berkeley (which has huge lay prestige) or Chicago (which has pretty significant lay prestige).


Of those schools, the lay prestige meter reads as follows:
berk>chicago>NYU>Penn>UVA... Incidentally, Michigan would be last among the t13.

This is not my opinion; I have polled a representative sample of laymen.