Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School Forum

[Johann]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

i think there are just as many people who are inherently selfish with their free time once they have a decent salary. law itself is a huge self selection of people chasing money so of course its a skewed population to begin with but lots of people sacrifice money for other benefits (its basically why anyone retires before forced retirement).

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

especially the set of people who go to t14's, who largely come from UMC backgrounds

I don't know about that. If by UMC you mean net worth 8 figures....All the rich kids I knew from law school from families with $10 million+ went into PI. It's the middle class strivers that go into and stay in biglaw.....I mean why bother slaving away in some job that only makes low six figures when you're going to inherit millions?

[Johann]

i think the best way to do is basically ask a hiring partner if there are differences between X, Y, and Z within the T13. based on what ive heard from people in the recruitment process i think almost all amlaw 200 firms view the T13 as HYS/ rest of T13. i think some super prestigious vault 15 firms have specific delineations between HYS / CCN ( and maybe even CC / N) / etc. but i think thats rare still.

i think the interviews also matter depending of region a lot. personality matters a lot more at firms outside NYC. so that explains some of the berkely shut out or michigan shut out if someone is just not willing to go to nyc it will matter at the margin. but that person would have also struggled at penn or cornell if they werent willing to work in nyc. its just that less people go to penn or cornell that arent willing to work in nyc because of conflating reasons.

[Hikikomorist]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

especially the set of people who go to t14's, who largely come from UMC backgrounds

I don't know about that. If by UMC you mean net worth 8 figures....All the rich kids I knew from law school from families with $10 million+ went into PI. It's the middle class strivers that go into and stay in biglaw.....I mean why bother slaving away in some job that only makes low six figures when you're going to inherit millions?

Why work at all in that situation? Is it usually a stipulation attached to the inheritance?

[curry1]

Going off 2005-2008 NLJ stuff, Berk and Mich students topped the T14 for public interest (followed by NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Yale). If they have something like NYU where they give out full rides to a fraction of PI kids every year, I could see that artificially deflating their placement to an extent (since I doubt PI kids are just going to slack off and end up bottom 10%). There are probably a good number of kids at all T14s that would've done PI straight out of school if they didn't have loans to pay off.

Beyond that, I agree that Berk just has a shitty home market and NYC is so far away that a lot of them just don't bid there, or can't articulate why they went to Berk to land a job in NYC. Berk being in the middle of the pack usually suggests that a good chunk of their kids (not the reverse splitters they love to take) could've gone to a lower T14 closer to NYC/DC, but self-selected to Berk for some reason, most likely to target or stay in the CA market.

What a lame excuse. They could just do PSLF if they're a true believer. The reason they don't do PI is because BigLaw is often the path of least resistance, getting a job before 2L even starts is comforting, and people are inherently selfish creatures who like making money.

especially the set of people who go to t14's, who largely come from UMC backgrounds

I don't know about that. If by UMC you mean net worth 8 figures....All the rich kids I knew from law school from families with $10 million+ went into PI. It's the middle class strivers that go into and stay in biglaw.....I mean why bother slaving away in some job that only makes low six figures when you're going to inherit millions?

by UMC i mean parents with ~2-500k annual income and net worth under 5 million. That seems to capture a lot of the T14 population, parents well-off but not enough that they can sponge off of them.

[curry1]

.

[slurp]

at op disparity

[lawboundsomeday]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

another friendly reminder that boutiques (which often pay >market now) are not included in BL/FC. its not like these self selection problems are unique to mich and boalt. stanford and yale seem to have a little bit of them too. theres absolutely something bigger at play (since we know firms dont have different hiring standards between mich/boalt/NU/duke/penn etc)

Yes -- seems to me that regional and subject-area markets have more variation than these numbers express. Boalt and Michigan and UCLA and NYU all probably have more serious and deep PI interest than, say, Cornell and Penn. Same for G'town and government. And interest in boutiques in a bunch of areas, including IP and Entertainment, among others, may be quite differently spread across schools. This BL + FC is definitely a useful statistic, but treating it like it's the whole story is kinda one-dimensional, it seems to me.

[Trippel]

Is the general concencus here that the "self selection" argument for why Berkeley has lower #s for BL+FC is accurate? Or do people think it's generally harder for someone shooting for biglaw to get it out of Berkeley? Asking for a friend.

I always found the self selection argument kinda ridiculous.

I don't think it is

I agree, otherwise you have to conclude that a ton of firms have substantially different grade cutoffs for say, boalt vs Cornell, which seems unlikely.

Boalt also has excellent FC numbers (it's above 10% right?), so I doubt that biglaw firms are turning their nose up at Boalt. I don't think self selection explains it all, but idk, it can't be that hiring partners are like "eww Boalt??"

another friendly reminder that boutiques (which often pay >market now) are not included in BL/FC. its not like these self selection problems are unique to mich and boalt. stanford and yale seem to have a little bit of them too. theres absolutely something bigger at play (since we know firms dont have different hiring standards between mich/boalt/NU/duke/penn etc)

Yes -- seems to me that regional and subject-area markets have more variation than these numbers express. Boalt and Michigan and UCLA and NYU all probably have more serious and deep PI interest than, say, Cornell and Penn. Same for G'town and government. And interest in boutiques in a bunch of areas, including IP and Entertainment, among others, may be quite differently spread across schools. This BL + FC is definitely a useful statistic, but treating it like it's the whole story is kinda one-dimensional, it seems to me.

Hmm, UCLA for "serious and deep PI"? Really?

[rpupkin]

i think the best way to do is basically ask a hiring partner if there are differences between X, Y, and Z within the T13. based on what ive heard from people in the recruitment process i think almost all amlaw 200 firms view the T13 as HYS/ rest of T13. i think some super prestigious vault 15 firms have specific delineations between HYS / CCN ( and maybe even CC / N) / etc. but i think thats rare still.

This is basically correct.

[Veil of Ignorance]

Why work at all in that situation? Is it usually a stipulation attached to the inheritance?

I imagine that, even if you are wealthy enough to lay on your parents' yacht all day, most people still have the drive to accomplish something with their lives. From the parent's perspective, having a child do PI gives some social clout. I had a strange interaction with a CEO at a coffee shop once (he saw me studying logic games) in which he bragged about how his daughter went straight to work at a women's rights NGO after graduating from Berkeley. He also told me that she "got the highest LSAT score in America."
Edit: not trying to sound snide about the work itself, which is obviously meaningful.

[BigZuck]

I'm glad this thread has died and no one is posting in it any more. Hopefully people will have totally forgotten about it when UT lays its inevitable egg tomorrow.

[CR7]

Why work at all in that situation? Is it usually a stipulation attached to the inheritance?

I imagine that, even if you are wealthy enough to lay on your parents' yacht all day, most people still have the drive to accomplish something with their lives. From the parent's perspective, having a child do PI gives some social clout. I had a strange interaction with a CEO at a coffee shop once (he saw me studying logic games) in which he bragged about how his daughter went straight to work at a women's rights NGO after graduating from Berkeley. He also told me that she "got the highest LSAT score in America."
Edit: not trying to sound snide about the work itself, which is obviously meaningful.

lol highest LSAT score in America...should have gone to Stanford at least

[rpupkin]

I'm glad this thread has died and no one is posting in it any more. Hopefully people will have totally forgotten about it when UT lays its inevitable egg tomorrow.

I assumed that Michigan's meteoric gains are far more painful for you than the TTT employment stats that UT will soon release.

[cannibal ox]

I'm glad this thread has died and no one is posting in it any more. Hopefully people will have totally forgotten about it when UT lays its inevitable egg tomorrow.

Tomorrow is April 14th.

The deadline is April 15th.

You really think UT is gonna do something before they absolutely have to?

[dietcoke1]

Berkeley had 278 grads in 2015 and 330 in 2016. is 330 going to be the new normal for them?

[TLS_Dreamer]

Why is everyone shitting on UT for not releasing scores but not NYU?

[guynourmin]

Why is everyone shitting on UT for not releasing scores but not NYU?

I think mostly b.c of Zuck

[zot1]

UCI is also up.

http://www.law.uci.edu/careers/students ... ry2016.pdf

17 in 100+ firms
16 in Fed Clerks
118 Total Grads

27.96% Biglaw/Fed Clerk. [2015: was 28.18 (repeating of course) %. Basically the same]

[rpupkin]

Why is everyone shitting on UT for not releasing scores but not NYU?

Because NYU is an established T6 school, while UT is a fringe institution that needs to justify its new T14 ranking. Very poor form by UT here.

[STribe14]

Berkeley had 278 grads in 2015 and 330 in 2016. is 330 going to be the new normal for them?

IIRC, they said they expect an incoming class of around 280 at ASW.

[dietcoke1]

Berkeley had 278 grads in 2015 and 330 in 2016. is 330 going to be the new normal for them?

IIRC, they said they expect an incoming class of around 280 at ASW.

I wonder how many transfers they usually take. sounds like its going to stay closer to 330 from now on

[PrezRand]

Why is everyone shitting on UT for not releasing scores but not NYU?

Because this is TLS and most people here are losers

[grades??]

Berkeley had 278 grads in 2015 and 330 in 2016. is 330 going to be the new normal for them?

IIRC, they said they expect an incoming class of around 280 at ASW.

I wonder how many transfers they usually take. sounds like its going to stay closer to 330 from now on

Word on the street is they need the revenue. Main Berkeley and UC generally is really struggling financially. They need the cash desperately that splitters and transfers bring.

[dietcoke1]

Berkeley had 278 grads in 2015 and 330 in 2016. is 330 going to be the new normal for them?

IIRC, they said they expect an incoming class of around 280 at ASW.

I wonder how many transfers they usually take. sounds like its going to stay closer to 330 from now on

Word on the street is they need the revenue. Main Berkeley and UC generally is really struggling financially. They need the cash desperately that splitters and transfers bring.

I've also heard this. Haven't they gotten in trouble by taking too many OOS students so they can shell out more tuition? Being stingy with scholly offers and raising class sizes seems like the best way to bring yourself down in the rankings