Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

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cavalier1138

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:39 am

michlaw wrote:Went to school in Michigan. Work in NYC. Have only visited the PNW. Still think that NYC would be a bit of a culture shock for someone who essentially grew up in Portland and plans to return. Either way NYU is simply not worth 75k more than Michigan.


LRAP. LRAP. LRAP.

Why do people keep acting like this debt is at all serviceable with a PI job? NYU could be 25k more than Michigan or 100k more. If the debt is going to be handled entirely through LRAP/PSLF, then it's a moot point.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby michlaw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:59 am

I don't think you can count on getting the dream LRAP eligible job. Often these low paying but excellent careers are harder to get than big law jobs. This is going to get much more difficult with the looming severe/draconian federal agency budget cuts. The federal public defender goal is laudable. The 75K is real.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cron1834 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:47 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
michlaw wrote:The mid-west Michigan vibe would play better in Portland than the NYC make it there mantra imo.


Yeah, that's bullshit. No one in the PNW thinks that the Midwest is remotely comparable, and the central issue is that if the OP won't be able to service any of these levels of debt, they should take the best LRAP program.

Mich plays great in the PNW. I'm tied there and I went to Mich.

With that said, OP: definitely go NYU or a west coast school in this specific fact pattern.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:09 pm

michlaw wrote:I don't think you can count on getting the dream LRAP eligible job. Often these low paying but excellent careers are harder to get than big law jobs. This is going to get much more difficult with the looming severe/draconian federal agency budget cuts. The federal public defender goal is laudable. The 75K is real.


What the hell are you talking about?

No one thinks the OP is going to be a federal defender right out of school (since that's literally impossible), but a PD job is definitely accessible from any of these schools. LRAP-eligible jobs aren't all federal jobs, and they aren't all ACLU positions. The attorney working for the parks department is LRAP and PSLF eligible. The public defender in Omaha is LRAP and PSLF eligible. The lawyer working for a local organization that offers pro bono representation in DV cases is LRAP and PSLF eligible.

cron1834 wrote:Mich plays great in the PNW.


Just to clarify, I never said it didn't. There's just no basis (and you seem to agree) to claim that it plays better than any of the other options here.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby michlaw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:16 pm

What do mean what do I mean? It is the stated objective of the op to do Fed PD. Your plan is to get one unicorn public interest job while waiting for the next one while all the while being covered by LRAP with the budgets of the EPA Justice Department and others being slashed? Not happening.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby Rigo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:19 pm

michlaw wrote:What do mean what do I mean? It is the stated objective of the op to do Fed PD. Your plan is to get one unicorn public interest job while waiting for the next one while all the while being covered by LRAP with the budgets of the EPA Justice Department and others being slashed? Not happening.

I wouldn't call PD a unicorn PI job whatsoever.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby brennakate » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:04 pm

So, if it matters (as far as the discussion of which schools place well where), I have pretty significant ties to the PD offices here in Portland (have worked in the courts for the last 3.5 years) and feel fairly confident that my feet are far enough in those doors that I could land a job here. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture and figure out which of these schools is likely to open the most doors in the long run (whether as a public defender or in another government position).

Thanks again for all your help.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby michlaw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:11 pm

In CT where I grew up here is the deal for a job in the state ADA or PD. Go to law school. Intern while in law school. No pay. Get great grades. Pass the bar before you even apply for a job. Volunteer for a year or 2. Maybe longer. For free gratis while your loans go into repayment.Then compete with everyone who knows anyone mostly from school's people on this site scoff at. All for a slim chance at a 50k starting salary. So you can save the world and get your loans paid.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby chandhi » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:13 pm

I don't think I can give any particularly helpful advice, but I'm choosing Mich from a similar set of schools and I live in Seattle right now. Also, I'm public interest. And planning to go back to the PNW.

I've been highly impressed with what Mich has showed me public interest-wise. Also, cost of living is gonna be a huge and welcome change. I'm incredibly excited to attend. :)

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby Rigo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:16 pm

michlaw wrote:In CT where I grew up here is the deal for a job in the state ADA or PD. Go to law school. Intern while in law school. No pay. Get great grades. Pass the bar before you even apply for a job. Volunteer for a year or 2. Maybe longer. For free gratis while your loans go into repayment.Then compete with everyone who knows anyone mostly from school's people on this site scoff at. All for a slim chance at a 50k starting salary. So you can save the world and get your loans paid.

Based on what another poster from CT wanting PD has posted, CT sounds particularly bad with hiring freezes and such.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:36 pm

michlaw wrote:In CT where I grew up here is the deal for a job in the state ADA or PD. Go to law school. Intern while in law school. No pay. Get great grades. Pass the bar before you even apply for a job. Volunteer for a year or 2. Maybe longer. For free gratis while your loans go into repayment.Then compete with everyone who knows anyone mostly from school's people on this site scoff at. All for a slim chance at a 50k starting salary. So you can save the world and get your loans paid.


Ok, we get it. You don't know much about PI, so you make vague statements about opportunities in the public defense field and don't bother to learn about how LRAP or PSLF work for PI lawyers. It's not what you want to do. So stop giving the OP input based on your lack of knowledge.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby michlaw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:45 pm

You are silly...

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby Rigo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:48 pm

michlaw wrote:You are an idiot.

nyu2019maybeplease wrote:I'll add an argument for Michigan here though, and I'll gladly source it: OP, if you find the level of snark on TLS is...weird, check us out. One of the reasons I picked Michigan over NYU was a sense that it was a place where I could be challenged, but respectfully. It's a lot easier to have conversations about really difficult subjects if you start with the premise that everyone deserves a degree of civility.



I saw your original post! Which is it? Is Michigan chill and sociable or not?!!

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby Rigo » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:01 pm

It really just comes down to choosing NYU with a higher debt load but likely way less out of pocket costs (nothing if you make under $80k/yr) due to superior LRAP or Michigan with a lower debt load but higher out of pocket costs (you'll have to contribute to your debt payment if you make over $50k/yr).

If you do the 10 years, you will pay less for your NYU degree.
If there is a chance you will get caught up in the striver hivemind and pursue biglaw, go Michigan.

If you truly still can't decide, go visit both and choose Ann Arbor or NYC.
There are little things that could tip the scales too. Like if you need a new computer, NYU's LRAP covers that. NYU has guaranteed summer funding for PI jobs, etc. (I'm not biased, I just happen to know more about NYU from my own research.)

Good luck OP!

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby hangingtree » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:55 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:..and the central issue is that if the OP won't be able to service any of these levels of debt, they should take the best LRAP program.


True to an extent, just don't overlook the difference between being $300K vs. $180K in debt. One is a burden that you will never get out of until LRAP takes care of it. The other is one that is manageable and can be serviced even without a biglaw salary.

Day to day, you end up thinking of money quite a lot after law school, even if you aren't that interested in it. NYU's advantage over Michigan law school-wise is questionable in my eyes anyway, and is certainly not worth the daily realization that you have a debtload that is just not serviceable even with a biglaw salary.

I am grateful every single day I attended my T10 at $$ and not a T6 at sticker. At $300K, about $1500 a month is accruing in interest, vs. $900/month at $180K. The margins here are important. You never know if you want to do biglaw, not do law, etc. etc. Picking NYU now is resigning to LRAP. Picking Michigan is still keeping the options open (to an extent).

Picking NYU is totally defensible. You just have to think long and hard about what you want to do and how likely you are to change your mind about that. (Additionally, though I don't know a great deal about either school, will NYU really offer that much more than Michigan? My understanding is that Michigan also does super well for public interest. https://www.skaddenfellowships.org/fellows-list/)

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby michlaw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:13 pm

Rigo wrote:
michlaw wrote:You are an idiot.

nyu2019maybeplease wrote:I'll add an argument for Michigan here though, and I'll gladly source it: OP, if you find the level of snark on TLS is...weird, check us out. One of the reasons I picked Michigan over NYU was a sense that it was a place where I could be challenged, but respectfully. It's a lot easier to have conversations about really difficult subjects if you start with the premise that everyone deserves a degree of civility.



I saw your original post! Which is it? Is Michigan chill and sociable or not?!!


I am in awe quick-draw. I modified by language within 10 seconds. Can't get away with anything.

And the Skadden Fellows program is amazing.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:31 pm

I have no clue what is going on here. OP, you've received answers ad what I can only imagine is nauseum.

One last bit of advice: breathe, and dont stress about it too much. They are similar options and your life is not going to be made/broken by either choice. If you really can't get yourself to a decision you're happy with, visit and then go with your gut. Save the stressing for law school. You're gonna be fine.

Best of luck.

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cron1834

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cron1834 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:40 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Mich plays great in the PNW.


Just to clarify, I never said it didn't. There's just no basis (and you seem to agree) to claim that it plays better than any of the other options here.

No, I don't agree, actually. There are very, very few Cornell/Duke alums in the PNW. Michigan has some, though. Not a lot, but certainly more than the others. I was deciding among Mich, UVA, Cornell, and Duke, and I went Mich in part for that reason.

But the PI/PD thing throws it off here. I think we agree that NYU or Berk (or UW/Lewis&Clark) would be more sensible in this case.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:51 am

hangingtree wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:..and the central issue is that if the OP won't be able to service any of these levels of debt, they should take the best LRAP program.


True to an extent, just don't overlook the difference between being $300K vs. $180K in debt. One is a burden that you will never get out of until LRAP takes care of it. The other is one that is manageable and can be serviced even without a biglaw salary.

Day to day, you end up thinking of money quite a lot after law school, even if you aren't that interested in it. NYU's advantage over Michigan law school-wise is questionable in my eyes anyway, and is certainly not worth the daily realization that you have a debtload that is just not serviceable even with a biglaw salary.

I am grateful every single day I attended my T10 at $$ and not a T6 at sticker. At $300K, about $1500 a month is accruing in interest, vs. $900/month at $180K. The margins here are important. You never know if you want to do biglaw, not do law, etc. etc. Picking NYU now is resigning to LRAP. Picking Michigan is still keeping the options open (to an extent).

Picking NYU is totally defensible. You just have to think long and hard about what you want to do and how likely you are to change your mind about that. (Additionally, though I don't know a great deal about either school, will NYU really offer that much more than Michigan? My understanding is that Michigan also does super well for public interest. https://www.skaddenfellowships.org/fellows-list/)


Monthly payments on $180k in debt are going to be close to $2k a month. That is actually not serviceable on a PI salary at all. So yes, even though there will be more interest accruing with the higher debt load, the LRAP program and PSLF are still doing all the heavy lifting on payment. And since NYU gives you a much more flexible LRAP program (and yes, stronger PI placement), it's still the right choice here. If the OP were looking at Columbia or HYS, then there might be a debate, because those LRAPs are arguably better than the NYU LRAP. But that isn't what the OP is looking at.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby GreenEggs » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:07 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Monthly payments on $180k in debt are going to be close to $2k a month. That is actually not serviceable on a PI salary at all. So yes, even though there will be more interest accruing with the higher debt load, the LRAP program and PSLF are still doing all the heavy lifting on payment. And since NYU gives you a much more flexible LRAP program (and yes, stronger PI placement), it's still the right choice here. If the OP were looking at Columbia or HYS, then there might be a debate, because those LRAPs are arguably better than the NYU LRAP. But that isn't what the OP is looking at.


Agreed with this.

While I think sticker is a bad idea, if OP actually have a strong basis to know PD work is 100% for you and that's your life's plan, then NYU seems like the no brainer on these options. It's a 75k difference (I would say something else if it was 150k), NYU gives OP a significantly better chance of landing a good PD job than the other options, and NYU's LRAP is superior. The fact that NYU has a non-PSLF track, which could be utilized in the event that PSLF disappears, puts way more security on the choice of going straight LRAP, which OP Would have to do regardless of where he went
Last edited by GreenEggs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby shadowfax » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:20 am

Retake.

I know you don't want to hear that but with your gpa a little extra work on the LSAT will make an enormous difference. Seems like you are so well regarded at your work that they would understand your desire to maximize your opportunities. Shoot for 172 and HYS and full rides just below are in your future. There is little difference in the schools your are currently choosing from. That being said, great work so far.

Best of luck.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby brennakate » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:26 pm

(I'm reposting this question from the Financial Aid board since there were a lot of folks talking about NYU's LRAP here, I hope that's okay.)

I'm having trouble understanding some of the particulars of NYU's LRAP.

From the website: "The amount of debt qualifying for consideration by the Program (“Qualifying Debt”) is the lesser of: The original principal of the participant’s actual law school loans (“Actual Debt”), as defined above, or an amount equal to three years (six semesters) of the standard student expense budget less aid received and less the student contribution calculated according to NYU’s institutional formula (“Maximum LRAP-Eligible Debt”)"

According to my financial aid package, my "student contribution" is supposed to be ~$45,000 each year. I have almost no assets. Am I correct in my reading of the program, that this ~$135,000 is debt that is NOT eligible for LRAP forgiveness? I've sent two emails to financial aid but have not heard back, and have deposit deadlines from other schools coming up this week.

Also, I'm at a complete loss as to how their calculations indicate that I can swing this money out-of-pocket. The only thing I can think of is that I did not include parental assets on my financial aid application. I understood that this would preclude me from need-based scholarships, but had no idea that this would impact my eligibility for LRAP down the line.

Any insight/feedback y'all could provide is much appreciated!

cavalier1138

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:21 pm

brennakate wrote:(I'm reposting this question from the Financial Aid board since there were a lot of folks talking about NYU's LRAP here, I hope that's okay.)

I'm having trouble understanding some of the particulars of NYU's LRAP.

From the website: "The amount of debt qualifying for consideration by the Program (“Qualifying Debt”) is the lesser of: The original principal of the participant’s actual law school loans (“Actual Debt”), as defined above, or an amount equal to three years (six semesters) of the standard student expense budget less aid received and less the student contribution calculated according to NYU’s institutional formula (“Maximum LRAP-Eligible Debt”)"

According to my financial aid package, my "student contribution" is supposed to be ~$45,000 each year. I have almost no assets. Am I correct in my reading of the program, that this ~$135,000 is debt that is NOT eligible for LRAP forgiveness? I've sent two emails to financial aid but have not heard back, and have deposit deadlines from other schools coming up this week.

Also, I'm at a complete loss as to how their calculations indicate that I can swing this money out-of-pocket. The only thing I can think of is that I did not include parental assets on my financial aid application. I understood that this would preclude me from need-based scholarships, but had no idea that this would impact my eligibility for LRAP down the line.

Any insight/feedback y'all could provide is much appreciated!


You'll want to talk to the office directly about that. $45,000 a year sounds insane if you didn't indicate some sort of outside assets. But they may very well assume that your parents are loaded if you decline to give them that information when they ask.

But yes, assuming that you're reading the numbers correctly, you're right about the amount that would not be eligible for LRAP.

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:24 pm

I'd call them. If i recall correctly they responded way quicker to phone than email when I was applying.

brennakate wrote:(I'm reposting this question from the Financial Aid board since there were a lot of folks talking about NYU's LRAP here, I hope that's okay.)

I'm having trouble understanding some of the particulars of NYU's LRAP.

From the website: "The amount of debt qualifying for consideration by the Program (“Qualifying Debt”) is the lesser of: The original principal of the participant’s actual law school loans (“Actual Debt”), as defined above, or an amount equal to three years (six semesters) of the standard student expense budget less aid received and less the student contribution calculated according to NYU’s institutional formula (“Maximum LRAP-Eligible Debt”)"

According to my financial aid package, my "student contribution" is supposed to be ~$45,000 each year. I have almost no assets. Am I correct in my reading of the program, that this ~$135,000 is debt that is NOT eligible for LRAP forgiveness? I've sent two emails to financial aid but have not heard back, and have deposit deadlines from other schools coming up this week.

Also, I'm at a complete loss as to how their calculations indicate that I can swing this money out-of-pocket. The only thing I can think of is that I did not include parental assets on my financial aid application. I understood that this would preclude me from need-based scholarships, but had no idea that this would impact my eligibility for LRAP down the line.

Any insight/feedback y'all could provide is much appreciated!

brennakate

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Re: Michigan, Duke, Cornell, or NYU for Public Defense/PI

Postby brennakate » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:39 am

I called them, they confirmed that the 45k/year is what their formula indicates I can pay out-of-pocket (ha!) and told me to appeal.



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