Another Stanford vs. Harvard

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Stanford or Harvard

Stanford
40
53%
Harvard
35
47%
 
Total votes: 75

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rpupkin

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:17 pm

dirac wrote:A 2L at HLS, I enjoyed every minute here and am convinced Harvard should be the absolute choice for OP. That said, you have my full respect for your objective consideration (although I do not agree with your opinion). I am very proud to study in the same law school as you.

Well, it looks like we have our first good argument for why the OP should pick SLS.

foregetaboutdre

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby foregetaboutdre » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:34 pm

Honestly go with what your gut feels or flip a coin. Both have stellar outcomes.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby Rigo » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Also since H has a bigger class size, you should only count 1/3 of their votes.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby T3TON » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:01 pm

rpupkin wrote:
T3TON wrote:I didnt say Stanford has a "pronounced advantage" anywhere. I said it has a slight advantage in some markets, and NY is one of the markets where that advantage is most pronounced (albeit still small). Conversely there are markets where Harvard is advantaged. NY just isnt one of them.

What do you base this on? It's not consistent with my experience, and it's not supported by any data I'm aware of.


EIP/OCI data on offers from top New York firms in relation to the number of students who bidded/interviewed each and in consideration of the rough class-rank of applicants. To be clear the difference is small. And remember that some years Harvard has 10x more students targeting New York than does Stanford.

If youre curious we can continue this exchange over PM but I think its largely irrelevant to OP's decision. Getting New York big law should not be the major hurdle in his/her life trajectory. My original comment was directed at another poster who suggested that the desire to be in New York was dispositive in favor of Harvard.

dirac

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby dirac » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:18 pm

rpupkin wrote:
dirac wrote:A 2L at HLS, I enjoyed every minute here and am convinced Harvard should be the absolute choice for OP. That said, you have my full respect for your objective consideration (although I do not agree with your opinion). I am very proud to study in the same law school as you.

Well, it looks like we have our first good argument for why the OP should pick SLS.


I was writing in response to lawlorbust, not OP :D

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:09 am

ParisHilton wrote:Thank you for all the responses so far, they are really helpful.

-COA will be very similar as I will be paying full sticker (although I do think the point of considering sums of $ as purely relative and therefore insignificant is a good one)
-By east coast I did mean essentially NYC
-I am confused why some are saying I shouldn't limit myself to aspiring for a CoA clerkship? In NYC, the Court of Appeals is the state's highest court.


Oh, you were referring to the NY Court of Appeals? Yeah, that's not at all helpful for someone with federal goals. You should be aiming for a federal appellate clerkship and/or a much-more-competitive district clerkship if you want to gun for an AUSA job.

But again, do you have any money offers at CCN? The goals you've listed don't really require H/S, and if you have a significantly reduced debt load elsewhere, the "prestige" isn't worth it.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby Julius » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:58 pm

Goals:

-Considering criminal, environmental, and constitutional law and would like to do clinical work and write for review


They're equal schools. Law Review is easier to get at SLS but more of a marker from HLS for that same reason.

-CoA Clerkship->Big Law/Boutique Litigation->U.S. Attorney's Office->Possibly judge

The only discernible difference here is that SLS does quite a bit better placing clerks, if that's the route you go.

-Prefer to practice in NYC

If you can't get NYC from one of these schools, it's on you, not your school.

About me:
-Stanford undergrad class of 15' (still trying to decide if it is a good idea to spend 7 years at one university even though I really liked undergrad)

Draw. (expand experience v going with what know you already like)

-Have many friends in the bay area, but consider the area around Stanford boring

HLS. The area around Stanford is objectively boring.

-Almost certain I want to end up on East Coast

Draw. Both will get you there just as easy.

-Like the idea of a smaller, more laid back class

No T13 is genuinely laid back, but advantage SLS on both counts.

-Like the idea of living in a city more than suburbs

HLS

-Enjoy having closer relationships with professors

SLS

Going through the list, sounds like you need to figure out which of the above you want more. Either will get you NYC post-grad easily enough and both present similar enough career prospects. I'd worry more about where you'd enjoy your time more as it is 3 years of your life and how you do in those 3 years will have more of an effect on your trajectory than any marginal differences between the two schools.

Disclosure - SLS alum who chose it over HLS. No regrets, would make the same choice today.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby SolRs » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:10 pm

If the COA is the same, my vote would be for Harvard, simply the school is superb (as is Standford, I know), you want to live on the East Coast and will have better networking possibilities if going to school there, and because Boston is incredible to go to school in.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby shadowfax » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:11 pm

Retake.
Go to the best school that gives you a full ride.
Or take a year off.
Maybe consider not becoming a lawyer.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby shadowfax » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

When I returned from ASW in Palo Alto I was wearing a Stanford sweatshirt. When I got back from Cambridge a Harvard one. As a fashion statement they are more or less the same color. Which ever choice you make with work out amazingly. Gold luck.

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rpupkin

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:12 pm

shadowfax wrote:Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

tl;dr version: Go to Brigham Young, OP.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby Nacho_Verde » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:16 pm

shadowfax wrote:Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

When I returned from ASW in Palo Alto I was wearing a Stanford sweatshirt. When I got back from Cambridge a Harvard one. As a fashion statement they are more or less the same color. Which ever choice you make with work out amazingly. Gold luck.


for free???

Maybe it's because a lot of people get H only. So they compare H vs T14. And H has a relatively easy time winning there. And those that get S tend to get H, so more of a tougher choice to make. S can lose to peer H or $$$ at T14.

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rpupkin

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:17 pm

shadowfax wrote:I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

My guess: a significant percentage of SLS's admits are also admitted to YLS; most in that group choose YLS. Meanwhile, a significantly smaller percentage of HLS's admits are also admitted to YLS, so, even though most admits choose YLS over HLS, the "YLS drain" effect is less pronounced, relatively speaking.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby T3TON » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:35 pm

shadowfax wrote:Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

When I returned from ASW in Palo Alto I was wearing a Stanford sweatshirt. When I got back from Cambridge a Harvard one. As a fashion statement they are more or less the same color. Which ever choice you make with work out amazingly. Gold luck.


The author is confusing yield-rates with the preferences of cross-admits. Harvard's yield is the natural result of it accepting more students every year than Yale and Stanford combined. Based on the raw number of acceptances, less than half of the students Harvard accepts could have the option to attend Stanford instead. Thus it is less hurt by Yale's substantial (81%) yield.

To highlight this, here is a highly over-simplified hypothetical with fabricated numbers:
Yale accepts 200 students. All 200 accept. Yield: 100%
Stanford accepts 400 students. 200 were also accepted to Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 50%
Harvard accepts 1000 students. 400 were accepted to Stanford or Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 60%.

In this hypothetical, Harvard has the higher yield rate despite losing 100% of its Stanford cross-admits.

Of course, real life isnt so simple. Schools dont publish cross-admit rates so the the best data we have is in a thread posted a couple of weeks ago that reviewed the decisions made by MyLsn users. The results showed that Harvard/Stanford cross-admits ended up choosing Stanford slightly more often than not. However the difference was small (only a few percentage points).
Last edited by T3TON on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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big_willy_style_333

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby big_willy_style_333 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:52 pm

I'm surprised that not many people have brought up the fact that OP is planning on paying sticker (and presumably fully financing via loans unless I missed something?). Have I misunderstood the TLS hivemind that says sticker is a bad call even at HYS?

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:58 pm

big_willy_style_333 wrote:I'm surprised that not many people have brought up the fact that OP is planning on paying sticker (and presumably fully financing via loans unless I missed something?). Have I misunderstood the TLS hivemind that says sticker is a bad call even at HYS?


Literally the first reply:

cavalier1138 wrote:What's your total COA at these schools, and do you have any other T14 offers with money (especially CCN)? Your goals don't particularly require HYS, so if there's a lower-cost option for you in the T14, that might be a much better choice.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby shadowfax » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:40 pm

T3TON wrote:
shadowfax wrote:Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

When I returned from ASW in Palo Alto I was wearing a Stanford sweatshirt. When I got back from Cambridge a Harvard one. As a fashion statement they are more or less the same color. Which ever choice you make with work out amazingly. Gold luck.


The author is confusing yield-rates with the preferences of cross-admits. Harvard's yield is the natural result of it accepting more students every year than Yale and Stanford combined. Based on the raw number of acceptances, less than half of the students Harvard accepts could have the option to attend Stanford instead. Thus it is less hurt by Yale's substantial (81%) yield.

To highlight this, here is a highly over-simplified hypothetical with fabricated numbers:
Yale accepts 200 students. All 200 accept. Yield: 100%
Stanford accepts 400 students. 200 were also accepted to Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 50%
Harvard accepts 1000 students. 400 were accepted to Stanford or Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 60%.

In this hypothetical, Harvard has the higher yield rate despite losing 100% of its Stanford cross-admits.

Of course, real life isnt so simple. Schools dont publish cross-admit rates so the the best data we have is in a thread posted a couple of weeks ago that reviewed the decisions made by MyLsn users. The results showed that Harvard/Stanford cross-admits ended up choosing Stanford slightly more often than not. However the difference was small (only a few percentage points).


If you compare the 25% and 50% percentile LSAT difference between Yale and Stanford it seems likely that 25% or more of Stanford admits do not get offers from Yale.

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rpupkin

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:41 pm

shadowfax wrote:
T3TON wrote:
shadowfax wrote:Worth looking at. Published yesterday.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/03/the-10-l ... o-to-2017/

I am surprised that H yield is 62% according to the article while S is 44%. I might have thought it was the other way around. To the casual observer it seems that most TLS opiners say S is the no-brainer choice. It can't be finances as they are both need based and use the same formula.

When I returned from ASW in Palo Alto I was wearing a Stanford sweatshirt. When I got back from Cambridge a Harvard one. As a fashion statement they are more or less the same color. Which ever choice you make with work out amazingly. Gold luck.


The author is confusing yield-rates with the preferences of cross-admits. Harvard's yield is the natural result of it accepting more students every year than Yale and Stanford combined. Based on the raw number of acceptances, less than half of the students Harvard accepts could have the option to attend Stanford instead. Thus it is less hurt by Yale's substantial (81%) yield.

To highlight this, here is a highly over-simplified hypothetical with fabricated numbers:
Yale accepts 200 students. All 200 accept. Yield: 100%
Stanford accepts 400 students. 200 were also accepted to Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 50%
Harvard accepts 1000 students. 400 were accepted to Stanford or Yale, and go there instead. Yield: 60%.

In this hypothetical, Harvard has the higher yield rate despite losing 100% of its Stanford cross-admits.

Of course, real life isnt so simple. Schools dont publish cross-admit rates so the the best data we have is in a thread posted a couple of weeks ago that reviewed the decisions made by MyLsn users. The results showed that Harvard/Stanford cross-admits ended up choosing Stanford slightly more often than not. However the difference was small (only a few percentage points).


If you compare the 25% and 50% percentile LSAT difference between Yale and Stanford it seems likely that 25% or more of Stanford admits do not get offers from Yale.

So what?

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby guynourmin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 pm

--
Last edited by guynourmin on Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby T3TON » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:20 pm

shadowfax wrote:If you compare the 25% and 50% percentile LSAT difference between Yale and Stanford it seems likely that 25% or more of Stanford admits do not get offers from Yale.


Not only likely- mathematically certain (Yale accepts about 250 students/cycle, Stanford about 450). But that doesnt change the math in the hypo. The issue isnt what percentage of Stanford acceptees have also gotten into Yale, its what percentage of Yale acceptees have also gotten into Stanford. MyLsn data suggests that that percentage is very large.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby guynourmin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:25 pm

--

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby big_willy_style_333 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:04 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
big_willy_style_333 wrote:I'm surprised that not many people have brought up the fact that OP is planning on paying sticker (and presumably fully financing via loans unless I missed something?). Have I misunderstood the TLS hivemind that says sticker is a bad call even at HYS?


Literally the first reply:

cavalier1138 wrote:What's your total COA at these schools, and do you have any other T14 offers with money (especially CCN)? Your goals don't particularly require HYS, so if there's a lower-cost option for you in the T14, that might be a much better choice.

yeah, i see two users who have mentioned this out of however many have contributed. i think the bolded is still true

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby Mr_Chukes » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:17 pm

Stanford all the way. Easy choice.

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby pupperlover » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:40 am

Julius wrote:Goals:

-Considering criminal, environmental, and constitutional law and would like to do clinical work and write for review


They're equal schools. Law Review is easier to get at SLS but more of a marker from HLS for that same reason.

-CoA Clerkship->Big Law/Boutique Litigation->U.S. Attorney's Office->Possibly judge

The only discernible difference here is that SLS does quite a bit better placing clerks, if that's the route you go.

-Prefer to practice in NYC

If you can't get NYC from one of these schools, it's on you, not your school.

About me:
-Stanford undergrad class of 15' (still trying to decide if it is a good idea to spend 7 years at one university even though I really liked undergrad)

Draw. (expand experience v going with what know you already like)

-Have many friends in the bay area, but consider the area around Stanford boring

HLS. The area around Stanford is objectively boring.

-Almost certain I want to end up on East Coast

Draw. Both will get you there just as easy.

-Like the idea of a smaller, more laid back class

No T13 is genuinely laid back, but advantage SLS on both counts.

-Like the idea of living in a city more than suburbs

HLS

-Enjoy having closer relationships with professors

SLS

Going through the list, sounds like you need to figure out which of the above you want more. Either will get you NYC post-grad easily enough and both present similar enough career prospects. I'd worry more about where you'd enjoy your time more as it is 3 years of your life and how you do in those 3 years will have more of an effect on your trajectory than any marginal differences between the two schools.

Disclosure - SLS alum who chose it over HLS. No regrets, would make the same choice today.


Could you briefly summarize the main things you were considering when choosing between the two schools? (I am also incredibly grateful/fortunate to have this decision to make. I am currently strongly leaning SLS because of its strong IP program, less gunner/more congenial environment, but my parents are enamored with HLS' lay prestige which is not a very good reason. I will be visiting both schools in the upcoming ASWs)

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Re: Another Stanford vs. Harvard

Postby Julius » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:01 pm

pupperlover wrote:
Julius wrote:Goals:

-Considering criminal, environmental, and constitutional law and would like to do clinical work and write for review


They're equal schools. Law Review is easier to get at SLS but more of a marker from HLS for that same reason.

-CoA Clerkship->Big Law/Boutique Litigation->U.S. Attorney's Office->Possibly judge

The only discernible difference here is that SLS does quite a bit better placing clerks, if that's the route you go.

-Prefer to practice in NYC

If you can't get NYC from one of these schools, it's on you, not your school.

About me:
-Stanford undergrad class of 15' (still trying to decide if it is a good idea to spend 7 years at one university even though I really liked undergrad)

Draw. (expand experience v going with what know you already like)

-Have many friends in the bay area, but consider the area around Stanford boring

HLS. The area around Stanford is objectively boring.

-Almost certain I want to end up on East Coast

Draw. Both will get you there just as easy.

-Like the idea of a smaller, more laid back class

No T13 is genuinely laid back, but advantage SLS on both counts.

-Like the idea of living in a city more than suburbs

HLS

-Enjoy having closer relationships with professors

SLS

Going through the list, sounds like you need to figure out which of the above you want more. Either will get you NYC post-grad easily enough and both present similar enough career prospects. I'd worry more about where you'd enjoy your time more as it is 3 years of your life and how you do in those 3 years will have more of an effect on your trajectory than any marginal differences between the two schools.

Disclosure - SLS alum who chose it over HLS. No regrets, would make the same choice today.


Could you briefly summarize the main things you were considering when choosing between the two schools? (I am also incredibly grateful/fortunate to have this decision to make. I am currently strongly leaning SLS because of its strong IP program, less gunner/more congenial environment, but my parents are enamored with HLS' lay prestige which is not a very good reason. I will be visiting both schools in the upcoming ASWs)


My main reason for choosing SLS was that it was a smaller school. To me, this had two benefits. I was somewhat risk averse given the sums of money involved, and felt that I'd be less likely to get lost in the crowd at SLS. I felt that since very few peers are competing for the same market/practice area/etc., I would have more institutional support when it came to placement. I never went to HLS, so I don't like drawing direct comparisons between schools, but I suspect that the difference in clerkship numbers between the two schools is in part a result of this difference -- we simply got more time and support per student from our institution given our small class size. Similarly, and more important for me, I felt that the class would be more congenial because students were not in as much direct competition. Very few SLS students have the same long-term goals as one another. For what it's worth, I'm far enough along in my career that I've been involved in a couple hiring processes, and I (and my non-HYS peers) have eliminated HLS students from contention simply because they were lower on the pecking order than their HLS peer applicants. Those students at the bottom of the HLS stack were impressive people, but during the first cut or two they are considered in the context of their HLS peers, not the law student universe as a whole. Sample of 1, but I'd be surprised if this sort of thing didn't happen elsewhere.

If you have a serious interest in IP, I'd say SLS should be the presumptive choice. It's one of the few areas where I think there is an appreciable difference between the two schools.



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