Health Law St. Louis.

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CalvinSays
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Health Law St. Louis.

Postby CalvinSays » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:00 pm

I am a couple years from applying but I want to get my goal figured out. I want to go into health law specifically but am not adverse to IP and RE. My question is, between WUSTL and SLU which should I pick if I want to do health law and stay in STL? I'm not from the area but like it and my girlfriend, who is a geologist, is planning a career there. I haven't taken the LSAT yet but I'll end with a 3.88ish GPA and have scored in the 99th percentile on other standardized tests (I know the LSAT is a different beast but it's at least something of a benchmark).

What say ye?

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Rigo
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Rigo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:11 pm

100% aim for WUSTL if you want St. Louis.

favabeansoup
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby favabeansoup » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:04 am

CalvinSays wrote:I am a couple years from applying but I want to get my goal figured out. I want to go into health law specifically but am not adverse to IP and RE. My question is, between WUSTL and SLU which should I pick if I want to do health law and stay in STL? I'm not from the area but like it and my girlfriend, who is a geologist, is planning a career there. I haven't taken the LSAT yet but I'll end with a 3.88ish GPA and have scored in the 99th percentile on other standardized tests (I know the LSAT is a different beast but it's at least something of a benchmark).

What say ye?


Take some LSAT practice tests otherwise it's pure speculation.

CalvinSays
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby CalvinSays » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:03 pm

favabeansoup wrote:
CalvinSays wrote:I am a couple years from applying but I want to get my goal figured out. I want to go into health law specifically but am not adverse to IP and RE. My question is, between WUSTL and SLU which should I pick if I want to do health law and stay in STL? I'm not from the area but like it and my girlfriend, who is a geologist, is planning a career there. I haven't taken the LSAT yet but I'll end with a 3.88ish GPA and have scored in the 99th percentile on other standardized tests (I know the LSAT is a different beast but it's at least something of a benchmark).

What say ye?


Take some LSAT practice tests otherwise it's pure speculation.


To be fair all I'm simply trying to figure out is what school I should be shooting for, not whether I have a chance or not.

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UVA2B
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby UVA2B » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:06 pm

Rigo wrote:100% aim for WUSTL if you want St. Louis.

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kellyfrost
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby kellyfrost » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:12 pm

Health law? Can you be quite a bit more specific?

CalvinSays
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby CalvinSays » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:44 pm

kellyfrost wrote:Health law? Can you be quite a bit more specific?


I say simply health law because I'm really okay with practicing anything with it: malpractice cases, insurance, ETC etc. So anything that falls under the umbrella "health law."

I assume that WUSTL will be the go to but it doesn't seem to have a dedicated health law program like SLU, which also is highly ranked in that regard.

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Dr. Nefario
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Dr. Nefario » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:48 pm

CalvinSays wrote:
kellyfrost wrote:Health law? Can you be quite a bit more specific?


I say simply health law because I'm really okay with practicing anything with it: malpractice cases, insurance, ETC etc. So anything that falls under the umbrella "health law."

I assume that WUSTL will be the go to but it doesn't seem to have a dedicated health law program like SLU, which also is highly ranked in that regard.


Specialty rankings generally don't matter. WUSTL's employment is significantly better than SLU

Whyjd
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Whyjd » Wed May 10, 2017 9:28 pm

Rigo wrote:100% aim for WUSTL if you want St. Louis.


Huh? Are you from the St. Louis area? I have friends who are, and thats not what I hear at all. People question if WASHU grads are going to stick around, whereas SLU grads tend to stick in the area. (So I've been told.) There also the quality of life issue. I've heard so much negativity about how competitive and catty WASHU is, while SLU is supposed to be much more friendly. Then there's the $ factor.

As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)

Why wouldn't someone want to at least consider the friendlier school, that will offer more of the classes they want to take, give them a variety of clinical and practicum experience with DEEP roots in the St. Louis area, and likely cost them a fraction of the price?

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UVA2B
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby UVA2B » Wed May 10, 2017 9:46 pm

Whyjd wrote:
Rigo wrote:100% aim for WUSTL if you want St. Louis.


Huh? Are you from the St. Louis area? I have friends who are, and thats not what I hear at all. People question if WASHU grads are going to stick around, whereas SLU grads tend to stick in the area. (So I've been told.) There also the quality of life issue. I've heard so much negativity about how competitive and catty WASHU is, while SLU is supposed to be much more friendly. Then there's the $ factor.

As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)

Why wouldn't someone want to at least consider the friendlier school, that will offer more of the classes they want to take, give them a variety of clinical and practicum experience with DEEP roots in the St. Louis area, and likely cost them a fraction of the price?


Weird semi-necro, but the issue with WUSTL vs. SLU has nothing to do with flight risks. It has to do with placement outcomes. WUSTL places significantly more into desirable outcomes, both in STL and in other markets should the OP and girlfriend be willing to move for a career that will pay well. WUSTL places a significant portion of its grads into MO (~1/3 of the class stays there, so they'd hardly be prone to "flight risk"), and it's reasonable to expect that a good portion of those are in STL given the school's location.

The QOL issue seems ridiculous on its face. I doubt there is a huge disparity in quality of life between two schools in the same city, but you know what provides actual QOL? Reasonable expectation that you're looking at a good outcome after graduation. WUSTL students might be more competitive because they all want to be in the half of the class that gets traditionally desirable outcomes, but enjoying SLU followed by relatively bleak outcomes should vastly outweigh any meaningless difference in cattiness.

The specialty rankings are meaningless, and should be entirely ignored. It's not like Mayo or UnitedHealth are clamoring for SLU grads because of the strength of their health law program.

If OP is dedicated to STL and is looking at full price at WUSTL vs. SLU for free, it's worth considering. But we're talking about an OP (who is likely gone) who is trying to plan for ending up in STL prior to having to make this choice. Cost is going to matter in making this choice, but if the OP is gunning for desirable outcomes in STL, WUSTL is just about the best option around (obvious caveat for T13 here which could be equally good for STL iirc).

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waldorf
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby waldorf » Wed May 10, 2017 10:12 pm

Whyjd wrote:
Rigo wrote:100% aim for WUSTL if you want St. Louis.


Huh? Are you from the St. Louis area? I have friends who are, and thats not what I hear at all. People question if WASHU grads are going to stick around, whereas SLU grads tend to stick in the area. (So I've been told.) There also the quality of life issue. I've heard so much negativity about how competitive and catty WASHU is, while SLU is supposed to be much more friendly. Then there's the $ factor.

As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)

Why wouldn't someone want to at least consider the friendlier school, that will offer more of the classes they want to take, give them a variety of clinical and practicum experience with DEEP roots in the St. Louis area, and likely cost them a fraction of the price?


This is the only thing you posted that is true, but that is partly because those who went to high school in STL or surrounding areas tend to go to SLU while Wash U has more of a national reputation and draws students from all over the place. Friendliness of classmates (IIRC, Wash U had literally one bad class that has already graduated - bad in terms of way over the top competitive and catty) and specialty programs should have NO impact on your decision. Wash U is objectively better in every category, and they throw money at high LSAT scores, so retake until you can get a good scholarship there if you want STL.

(I'm also really excited because I know a lot about both law schools in St. Louis and am very familiar with the ins and outs of the St. Louis legal market, so finally, a thread I can really contribute to!)

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Lavitz
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 10, 2017 10:17 pm

Yeah, people question if WUSTL grads plan to stick around because most of them aren't from St. Louis. More SLU grads are from the area. But guess what. If you're already not from the area, going to SLU instead of WUSTL isn't going to magically make employers say "Oh, I see you're dedicated to staying in the area."

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waldorf
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby waldorf » Wed May 10, 2017 10:20 pm

Lavitz wrote:Yeah, people question if WUSTL grads plan to stick around because most of them aren't from St. Louis. More SLU grads are from the area. But guess what. If you're already not from the area, going to SLU instead of WUSTL isn't going to magically make employers say "Oh, I see you're dedicated to staying in the area."


Yep.

WUSTL is so generous with scholarships that unless you simply need a law degree to go into your family practice or whatever, I see no reason not to retake until you can get a 75% + scholarship there, especially with your GPA. If you want STL, aim for a full ride at Wash U. No question.

cavalier1138
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 11, 2017 6:15 am

Whyjd wrote:As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)


Looking at your post history, you seem to be a 3L. How do you still think shit like this matters when securing a job?

mightaswell
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby mightaswell » Thu May 11, 2017 10:40 am

From STL here. Shoot for WashU. If you keep your GPA up and get a 169+ on the LSAT, you should be looking at at least 75% scholarship, if not full ride.

Within the STL market, SLU does okay but the difference is that WashU does better and you're severely limiting your options if you and your spouse want to relocate OR break up. WUSTL gives you a LOT more geographic mobility and is an all around better degree.

I turned down the 1843 scholarship because even at a full ride, I didn't think SLU was worth the risk.

On hiring:
People in STL actually love hiring WashU grads, but are wary because people who go to WashU typically have higher aspirations that a medium-sized midwestern city can accommodate, not because they prefer SLU grads. Unless your from here your gonna have to make a case for why you want to stay regardless of which school you go to. (Also, they're probably going to be offended if you say 'look! I got a worse education because I wanted to show you how committed I am to your city.')

Whyjd
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Whyjd » Thu May 11, 2017 12:11 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Whyjd wrote:As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)


Looking at your post history, you seem to be a 3L. How do you still think shit like this matters when securing a job?

Hah. Fair question. I borrowed an account of a friend. Whoops.

It won't get you big law, but I think there are a number of reasons why it might be something to think about. Let's assume that SLU is easier. You could probably get a dual degree from there whereas at Washu it might have been too much.

If you're intelligent, and wanting to go more into the public interest side of things, I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise while also having a lot of opportunities. I mean, there are 2ls who got to argue in the 8th circuit. (I think?)

I guess my point is I think there are good opportunities at SLU if people avail themselves. Take a bit of a break academically, and do a few clinics. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to discover the type of law you're actually good at before you graduate.

cavalier1138
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 11, 2017 12:17 pm

Whyjd wrote:Hah. Fair question. I borrowed an account of a friend. Whoops.

It won't get you big law, but I think there are a number of reasons why it might be something to think about. Let's assume that SLU is easier. You could probably get a dual degree from there whereas at Washu it might have been too much.

If you're intelligent, and wanting to go more into the public interest side of things, I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise while also having a lot of opportunities. I mean, there are 2ls who got to argue in the 8th circuit. (I think?)

I guess my point is I think there are good opportunities at SLU if people avail themselves. Take a bit of a break academically, and do a few clinics. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to discover the type of law you're actually good at before you graduate.


You should stop ruining your friend's reputation. WashU has clinics, and your chances of placing at the top of the class at WashU are the same as they are at SLU. The difference is that if you end up at median at WashU, you have much better employment prospects than a student at median at SLU.

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UVA2B
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby UVA2B » Thu May 11, 2017 12:19 pm

Whyjd wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Whyjd wrote:As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)


Looking at your post history, you seem to be a 3L. How do you still think shit like this matters when securing a job?

Hah. Fair question. I borrowed an account of a friend. Whoops.

It won't get you big law, but I think there are a number of reasons why it might be something to think about. Let's assume that SLU is easier. You could probably get a dual degree from there whereas at Washu it might have been too much.

If you're intelligent, and wanting to go more into the public interest side of things, I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise while also having a lot of opportunities. I mean, there are 2ls who got to argue in the 8th circuit. (I think?)

I guess my point is I think there are good opportunities at SLU if people avail themselves. Take a bit of a break academically, and do a few clinics. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to discover the type of law you're actually good at before you graduate.


How is any of what you just said unique to SLU? Did WUSTL mysteriously disband all of its clinics and extracurricular opportunities? And why are we assuming SLU will be that much easier? And even if the OP did manage to do marginally better at SLU vs. WUSTL, isn't it a big deal that they've cut their chance at desirable outcomes in order to sacrifice for that marginal potential boost in class rank?

SLU for free is fine for being in STL if it's truly your best option, but OP has the potential to go to WUSTL for a similar price, which makes it unquestionably the right choice. Going to SLU in this case would be catastrophically stupid.

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guynourmin
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby guynourmin » Thu May 11, 2017 12:23 pm

Whyjd wrote:Let's assume that SLU is easier. ...I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise ...Take a bit of a break academically


this is among the worst type of advice you could possibly give.

Whyjd
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Whyjd » Thu May 11, 2017 12:55 pm

guybourdin wrote:
Whyjd wrote:Let's assume that SLU is easier. ...I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise ...Take a bit of a break academically


this is among the worst type of advice you could possibly give.


For some people, looking at their goals, they don't feel like killing themselves in law school. It's not worth it. If your career path supports it (I'm looking at you, public defenders) why shouldn't you consider where you might be less stressed?

As for the standing out, I'm referring to grade differentiation. From what I've heard, SLU has it, while washu doesnt.

Whyjd
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Whyjd » Thu May 11, 2017 12:57 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Whyjd wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Whyjd wrote:As for health law, SLU is well ranked and has a number of established internship and practicum components available. (As well as some dual degree programs.)


Looking at your post history, you seem to be a 3L. How do you still think shit like this matters when securing a job?

Hah. Fair question. I borrowed an account of a friend. Whoops.

It won't get you big law, but I think there are a number of reasons why it might be something to think about. Let's assume that SLU is easier. You could probably get a dual degree from there whereas at Washu it might have been too much.

If you're intelligent, and wanting to go more into the public interest side of things, I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise while also having a lot of opportunities. I mean, there are 2ls who got to argue in the 8th circuit. (I think?)

I guess my point is I think there are good opportunities at SLU if people avail themselves. Take a bit of a break academically, and do a few clinics. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to discover the type of law you're actually good at before you graduate.


How is any of what you just said unique to SLU? Did WUSTL mysteriously disband all of its clinics and extracurricular opportunities? And why are we assuming SLU will be that much easier? And even if the OP did manage to do marginally better at SLU vs. WUSTL, isn't it a big deal that they've cut their chance at desirable outcomes in order to sacrifice for that marginal potential boost in class rank?

SLU for free is fine for being in STL if it's truly your best option, but OP has the potential to go to WUSTL for a similar price, which makes it unquestionably the right choice. Going to SLU in this case would be catastrophically stupid.


Okay. I see your point there. Same/similar price washu makes sense. This is especially true when op really doesn't seem all that convinced he wants to stay in stl.

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guynourmin
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby guynourmin » Thu May 11, 2017 1:04 pm

Whyjd wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Whyjd wrote:Let's assume that SLU is easier. ...I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise ...Take a bit of a break academically


this is among the worst type of advice you could possibly give.


For some people, looking at their goals, they don't feel like killing themselves in law school. It's not worth it. If your career path supports it (I'm looking at you, public defenders) why shouldn't you consider where you might be less stressed?

As for the standing out, I'm referring to grade differentiation. From what I've heard, SLU has it, while washu doesnt.

but why are you assuming SLU is easier? Have you completed 1L year at both a top 20 school and a school outside of the top 50? If so, that's pretty interesting, but even then I would have a hard time believing you could accurately compare them considering you'd be at a significant advantage your second time around. I don't understand how you could convince yourself SLU is that much easier than WUSTL, and even if you have convinced yourself of that, absent any proof whatsoever (you have none) it seems reckless to try and convince others of that.

Whyjd
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby Whyjd » Thu May 11, 2017 1:57 pm

guybourdin wrote:
Whyjd wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Whyjd wrote:Let's assume that SLU is easier. ...I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise ...Take a bit of a break academically


this is among the worst type of advice you could possibly give.


For some people, looking at their goals, they don't feel like killing themselves in law school. It's not worth it. If your career path supports it (I'm looking at you, public defenders) why shouldn't you consider where you might be less stressed?

As for the standing out, I'm referring to grade differentiation. From what I've heard, SLU has it, while washu doesnt.

but why are you assuming SLU is easier? Have you completed 1L year at both a top 20 school and a school outside of the top 50? If so, that's pretty interesting, but even then I would have a hard time believing you could accurately compare them considering you'd be at a significant advantage your second time around. I don't understand how you could convince yourself SLU is that much easier than WUSTL, and even if you have convinced yourself of that, absent any proof whatsoever (you have none) it seems reckless to try and convince others of that.

That's fair. Law school is hard, and going to a lower ranked school isn't going to magically make it easy. From the information we have, WASHUs class has higher LSATs, and higher GPAs. To me, that means your peers are probably a bit more competition at WASHU.
- LSAT (75%- 25%): 158-151 v 169-160
- GPA (75-25) 3.62-3.13 v 3.81-3.15
- Median GPA: 3.4 v. 3.67

Then theres the curve. SLU's curve is quite a bit more harsh, but that leads to grade differentiation. When not everyone is getting an A, your A means a lot more.

I guess part of this goes back to my law school experience. Honestly, it wasn't that hard. I went to a lower ranked school, and I did average. But, I didn't have to do much to get there. Mild studying, occasional outlining. The few times where I did apply myself, I was rewarded. If I would have maintained that work ethic, I would have been sitting near the top of the class. Now, if I was at a place like washu, I would have crashed and burned. For one, my high grades wouldn't have been enough to save my low ones. But even, at my best, there would have been tons of smarter, more driven people ahead of me.

cavalier1138
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu May 11, 2017 2:37 pm

Whyjd wrote:That's fair. Law school is hard, and going to a lower ranked school isn't going to magically make it easy. From the information we have, WASHUs class has higher LSATs, and higher GPAs. To me, that means your peers are probably a bit more competition at WASHU.
- LSAT (75%- 25%): 158-151 v 169-160
- GPA (75-25) 3.62-3.13 v 3.81-3.15
- Median GPA: 3.4 v. 3.67

Then theres the curve. SLU's curve is quite a bit more harsh, but that leads to grade differentiation. When not everyone is getting an A, your A means a lot more.

I guess part of this goes back to my law school experience. Honestly, it wasn't that hard. I went to a lower ranked school, and I did average. But, I didn't have to do much to get there. Mild studying, occasional outlining. The few times where I did apply myself, I was rewarded. If I would have maintained that work ethic, I would have been sitting near the top of the class. Now, if I was at a place like washu, I would have crashed and burned. For one, my high grades wouldn't have been enough to save my low ones. But even, at my best, there would have been tons of smarter, more driven people ahead of me.


It's hard to believe you went to law school at all.

The whole point of going to a higher-ranked school is that it's pretty much impossible to crash and burn due to the more relaxed curve and that your outcomes are significantly better at median. It's not about whether the students are more capable. It's about whether you're in a tighter competition for the portion of the class that will have good job options.

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aspire2esquire
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Re: Health Law St. Louis.

Postby aspire2esquire » Mon May 15, 2017 5:58 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Whyjd wrote:Hah. Fair question. I borrowed an account of a friend. Whoops.

It won't get you big law, but I think there are a number of reasons why it might be something to think about. Let's assume that SLU is easier. You could probably get a dual degree from there whereas at Washu it might have been too much.

If you're intelligent, and wanting to go more into the public interest side of things, I just see the possibility of being able to stand out at SLU academic wise while also having a lot of opportunities. I mean, there are 2ls who got to argue in the 8th circuit. (I think?)

I guess my point is I think there are good opportunities at SLU if people avail themselves. Take a bit of a break academically, and do a few clinics. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to discover the type of law you're actually good at before you graduate.


You should stop ruining your friend's reputation. WashU has clinics, and your chances of placing at the top of the class at WashU are the same as they are at SLU. The difference is that if you end up at median at WashU, you have much better employment prospects than a student at median at SLU.


This, 1843 is not a guarantee to St. Louis success.




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