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Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:03 pm
by carlos_danger
174/3.94, only took the LSAT once.

Would be debt financing everything. The debt calculator in the stickied post is gone, is there another good place to calculate COA?

Looking at Harvard with likely no or little aid for the first year, but will be eligible for at least small grants in year 2 and 3. 75k aid at Chicago, haven't negotiated yet. 120k aid at Duke, told them about UT, Chi, and Harvard and am waiting to hear back about possibility of more aid. Full ride at UT, I have until April 1 to tell them if I'm taking it. Hopefully will hear aid offers from NYU soon. 150k to NU but I'm not really interested in going there.

From Texas and went to UT for undergrad but live in Chicago now doing consulting. Would be fine living anywhere I listed in this post.

Goals are kind of amorphous rn, but would like to do an article iii clerkship and eventually public interest law in consumer financial protection (like in the CFPB or DOJ). Maybe that's a wildly unrealistic aspiration but it's what my background is in. I'm comfortable doing biglaw if that's what it takes to service debt for several years.

I'd like to work in DC after graduating but very very long term would probably move back to Texas.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:09 pm
by trebekismyhero
Have you gone back to Chicago with the Duke offer? Probably wouldn't make a huge difference, but if you could get another $20-25k from them I would pick Chicago over Duke.

As things stand I think Duke is the right call

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:20 pm
by saf18hornet
carlos_danger wrote:174/3.94, only took the LSAT once.

Would be debt financing everything. The debt calculator in the stickied post is gone, is there another good place to calculate COA?

Looking at Harvard with likely no or little aid for the first year, but will be eligible for at least small grants in year 2 and 3. 75k aid at Chicago, haven't negotiated yet. 120k aid at Duke, told them about UT, Chi, and Harvard and am waiting to hear back about possibility of more aid. Full ride at UT, I have until April 1 to tell them if I'm taking it. Hopefully will hear aid offers from NYU and NU soon.

From Texas and went to UT for undergrad but live in Chicago now doing consulting. Would be fine living anywhere I listed in this post.

Goals are kind of amorphous rn, but would like to do an article iii clerkship and eventually public interest law in consumer financial protection (like in the CFPB or DOJ). Maybe that's a wildly unrealistic aspiration but it's what my background is in. I'm comfortable doing biglaw if that's what it takes to service debt for several years.

I'd like to work in DC after graduating but very very long term would probably move back to Texas.


Make a poll. I would have said Texas without hesitation until I got to "I'd like to work in DC after graduating". Duke has ~10% DC employment, and Texas only ~3%. Chicago is not going to help with this at all, and even Harvard is only 12% DC.

If you are dead set on DC for a bit, then it may be worth taking some debt and choosing Duke, but I still think you choose Texas given your long term goals.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:30 pm
by trebekismyhero
saf18hornet wrote:
carlos_danger wrote:174/3.94, only took the LSAT once.

Would be debt financing everything. The debt calculator in the stickied post is gone, is there another good place to calculate COA?

Looking at Harvard with likely no or little aid for the first year, but will be eligible for at least small grants in year 2 and 3. 75k aid at Chicago, haven't negotiated yet. 120k aid at Duke, told them about UT, Chi, and Harvard and am waiting to hear back about possibility of more aid. Full ride at UT, I have until April 1 to tell them if I'm taking it. Hopefully will hear aid offers from NYU and NU soon.

From Texas and went to UT for undergrad but live in Chicago now doing consulting. Would be fine living anywhere I listed in this post.

Goals are kind of amorphous rn, but would like to do an article iii clerkship and eventually public interest law in consumer financial protection (like in the CFPB or DOJ). Maybe that's a wildly unrealistic aspiration but it's what my background is in. I'm comfortable doing biglaw if that's what it takes to service debt for several years.

I'd like to work in DC after graduating but very very long term would probably move back to Texas.


Make a poll. I would have said Texas without hesitation until I got to "I'd like to work in DC after graduating". Duke has ~10% DC employment, and Texas only ~3%. Chicago is not going to help with this at all, and even Harvard is only 12% DC.

If you are dead set on DC for a bit, then it may be worth taking some debt and choosing Duke, but I still think you choose Texas given your long term goals.


You are mistaking self-selection for what is easier to get a job from. There is no doubt that it will be easier to get to DC from Harvard than Duke and it would likely be easier to get DC coming from the University of Chicago than Duke, especially for clerkships and prestigious Gov't jobs.

But they're not worth the extra costs as they stand since Duke can still get you there and is more affordable.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:41 pm
by saf18hornet
trebekismyhero wrote:
You are mistaking self-selection for what is easier to get a job from. There is no doubt that it will be easier to get to DC from Harvard than Duke and it would likely be easier to get DC coming from the University of Chicago than Duke, especially for clerkships and prestigious Gov't jobs.

But they're not worth the extra costs as they stand since Duke can still get you there and is more affordable.


Completely disagree with the self-selection argument on CHi, Duke, and UT, however, spending 300K for Harvard is about as dumb of a choice as you could make when UT is free and your long term goals are to end in Texas. No school is worth more than 100K debt-financed with his goals. So to me its still a no brainer.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:55 pm
by grades??
Also FYI OP Duke this year is sending a really large chunk of the 2l class to DC for their SA's compared to the last 5-10 years. Duke generally feeds NY extensively for biglaw with like 10% DC biglaw, but I believe this year's class has significantly more going to DC than usual.

All that is to say getting DC wont make much difference between Chicago and Duke. If OP wanted Chicago/midwest, then its a no brainer. But as long as you are an competitive candidate, DC is by no means harder to get at Duke than Chicago.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:05 pm
by existentialcrisis
grades?? wrote:Also FYI OP Duke this year is sending a really large chunk of the 2l class to DC for their SA's compared to the last 5-10 years. Duke generally feeds NY extensively for biglaw with like 10% DC biglaw, but I believe this year's class has significantly more going to DC than usual.

All that is to say getting DC wont make much difference between Chicago and Duke. If OP wanted Chicago/midwest, then its a no brainer. But as long as you are an competitive candidate, DC is by no means harder to get at Duke than Chicago.


Yea but the important question is what makes someone a "competitive candidate?" DC is super prestige and especially grade focused. I'd be willing to bet that DC firms have lower grade cutoffs for Chicago than Duke. It doesn't necessarily seem like OP wants to do biglaw anyway though. Although if it's DOJ that he wants then biglaw litigation is probably the way to get there.

That being said, I'd still take Duke here unless you can get more money out of Chicago.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:19 pm
by grades??
existentialcrisis wrote:
grades?? wrote:Also FYI OP Duke this year is sending a really large chunk of the 2l class to DC for their SA's compared to the last 5-10 years. Duke generally feeds NY extensively for biglaw with like 10% DC biglaw, but I believe this year's class has significantly more going to DC than usual.

All that is to say getting DC wont make much difference between Chicago and Duke. If OP wanted Chicago/midwest, then its a no brainer. But as long as you are an competitive candidate, DC is by no means harder to get at Duke than Chicago.


Yea but the important question is what makes someone a "competitive candidate?" DC is super prestige and especially grade focused. I'd be willing to bet that DC firms have lower grade cutoffs for Chicago than Duke. It doesn't necessarily seem like OP wants to do biglaw anyway though. Although if it's DOJ that he wants then biglaw litigation is probably the way to get there.

That being said, I'd still take Duke here unless you can get more money out of Chicago.


Sure but DC is going to require competitiveness at either school. I know at least 10+ Duke kids that got DC biglaw this year at or below median. But regardless, WC will probably take someone at Chicago with a 3.65 and a Duke kid with a 3.7, but the GPA cutoffs can't be that different.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:48 pm
by Clemenceau
Duke is a pretty good offer here. I think it's worth some extra debt vs UT.

I can't help but think someone with your numbers should have gotten a few more $100k+ offers from the lower t14. Have you heard back from everywhere already?

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:49 pm
by carlos_danger
Clemenceau wrote:Duke is a pretty good offer here. I think it's worth some extra debt vs UT.

I can't help but think someone with your numbers should have gotten a few more $100k+ offers from the lower t14. Have you heard back from everywhere already?


Didn't apply for aid at Georgetown or Berkeley because I heard they lowball (and observed it on LSN), so I figured it wouldn't help for negotiation purposes. For Cornell I think they need this year's tax returns from your parents, and mine haven't filed yet. WLed at UVA and Michigan, so can't apply for aid there.

Still waiting on aid offers from NU and NYU.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:59 pm
by existentialcrisis
I think Duke is fine at that price, but it sucks that you got YP'd out of negotiating power with UVA and Mich. What about Penn and CLS? I feel like money at either would've been great bargaining chips. Seems like you definitely got lowballed, so I'd try to negotiate with both Duke and Chicago as hard as you possibly can.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:10 pm
by carlos_danger
existentialcrisis wrote:I think Duke is fine at that price, but it sucks that you got YP'd out of negotiating power with UVA and Mich. What about Penn and CLS? I feel like money at either would've been great bargaining chips. Seems like you definitely got lowballed, so I'd try to negotiate with both Duke and Chicago as hard as you possibly can.


Didn't apply for aid at either Penn or CLS bc I was really busy at work and wasn't interested in going to either (I knew when I didn't get a Butler from CLS I couldn't afford to go). Is it too late?

And I'll go back to Chicago with my Harvard offer. I was trying to wait for Duke's counter offer and NYU's initial offer but I guess I don't really have time for that.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:14 pm
by existentialcrisis
carlos_danger wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:I think Duke is fine at that price, but it sucks that you got YP'd out of negotiating power with UVA and Mich. What about Penn and CLS? I feel like money at either would've been great bargaining chips. Seems like you definitely got lowballed, so I'd try to negotiate with both Duke and Chicago as hard as you possibly can.


Didn't apply for aid at either Penn or CLS bc I was really busy at work and wasn't interested in going to either (I knew when I didn't get a Butler from CLS I couldn't afford to go). Is it too late?

And I'll go back to Chicago with my Harvard offer. I was trying to wait for Duke's counter offer and NYU's initial offer but I guess I don't really have time for that.


Is April 1 just for the UT offer? I think waiting for Duke's counter and NYU's is actually probably a good idea, but I'm by no means a negotiation expert.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:21 pm
by carlos_danger
existentialcrisis wrote:
carlos_danger wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:I think Duke is fine at that price, but it sucks that you got YP'd out of negotiating power with UVA and Mich. What about Penn and CLS? I feel like money at either would've been great bargaining chips. Seems like you definitely got lowballed, so I'd try to negotiate with both Duke and Chicago as hard as you possibly can.


Didn't apply for aid at either Penn or CLS bc I was really busy at work and wasn't interested in going to either (I knew when I didn't get a Butler from CLS I couldn't afford to go). Is it too late?

And I'll go back to Chicago with my Harvard offer. I was trying to wait for Duke's counter offer and NYU's initial offer but I guess I don't really have time for that.


Is April 1 just for the UT offer? I think waiting for Duke's counter and NYU's is actually probably a good idea, but I'm by no means a negotiation expert.


Yeah, April 1 is just UT.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:33 pm
by UVA2B
If you're really interested in working in DC, let UT lapse if you must and wait on Duke/NYU offers. Duke at 120k is much better for DC than a full ride at UT, IMHO.

ETA: If you're all in on federal work like DOJ and CFPB, Chicago should come into play. Depending on cost and how bad you want it, Chicago will give you a sizable boost in fed gov and Art. III hiring that shouldn't be ignored.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:35 pm
by Dcc617
Did you apply late or something? You have killer stats and it seems like you should have more money on the table.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:51 pm
by carlos_danger
Dcc617 wrote:Did you apply late or something? You have killer stats and it seems like you should have more money on the table.


No! I was kind of surprised too. Applied first day of the cycle. 2 years W/E too. Was my app just weak, you think?

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:56 pm
by Hikikomorist
Don't give up your negotiating position with Duke and Chicago for your UT offer. Duke is your best choice now and has upside, whereas that UT offer is never getting better.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:37 am
by Dcc617
carlos_danger wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Did you apply late or something? You have killer stats and it seems like you should have more money on the table.


No! I was kind of surprised too. Applied first day of the cycle. 2 years W/E too. Was my app just weak, you think?


Maybe it was. I'd have expected you to kill most of the T14. Where all did you apply?

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:42 am
by carlos_danger
Dcc617 wrote:
carlos_danger wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Did you apply late or something? You have killer stats and it seems like you should have more money on the table.


No! I was kind of surprised too. Applied first day of the cycle. 2 years W/E too. Was my app just weak, you think?


Maybe it was. I'd have expected you to kill most of the T14. Where all did you apply?


The T14, Vandy, UCLA, and UT

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:46 am
by Dcc617
carlos_danger wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
carlos_danger wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:Did you apply late or something? You have killer stats and it seems like you should have more money on the table.


No! I was kind of surprised too. Applied first day of the cycle. 2 years W/E too. Was my app just weak, you think?


Maybe it was. I'd have expected you to kill most of the T14. Where all did you apply?


The T14, Vandy, UCLA, and UT


I don't know, if negotiations don't pan out like you hope and you don't hate your job, it may be worth redoing your cycle with fresh recommendations and new personal statement.

Anyone else, please interject if I'm mistaken.

All being said though, full ride at Duke is pretty sweet.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:49 am
by carlos_danger
Dcc617 wrote:
I don't know, if negotiations don't pan out like you hope and you don't hate your job, it may be worth redoing your cycle with fresh recommendations and new personal statement.

Anyone else, please interject if I'm mistaken.

All being said though, full ride at Duke is pretty sweet.


Yeah, I was wondering if reapplication would be worth it. It would be a ton of money to reapply with no fee waivers this time, though. And super bummed after all the time I spent on my application.

And unfortunately not a full ride at Duke, just 120k.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:23 pm
by gwillygecko
Any cycle that involves admission at h and admission/money at chi cannot be considered anything but a success. I would recommend picking between those two, and not even think of reapplying.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:20 pm
by carlos_danger
Also, followed up with NYU and bc I'm a finalist for Jacobson I won't hear back on aid until I do my interview :roll: (later this month). Also waiting to hear back on Doctoroff from Chicago.

Re: Harvard v Chicago ($$) v Duke ($$$) v UT ($$$$)

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:34 am
by Nebby
If you can get more money from Chicago then definitely go there.