Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

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cavalier1138

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:47 am

JohannDeMann wrote:city im in is capped at 35, state capped at 40, and fed capped at 40. i dont know where yall work. but that aint the norm for govt.


Maybe you live in a terrible city. Or maybe you're completely wrong about federal government hours there. Or maybe you're making shit up again (and again, and again, and again). I haven't met a single government lawyer who gets cut off at 40.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:30 am

JohannDeMann wrote:city im in is capped at 35, state capped at 40, and fed capped at 40. i dont know where yall work. but that aint the norm for govt.

Dude, like I said, some federal agencies cap at 40, but plenty don't. Nor do states all cap. Don't claim what you're vaguely familiar with is "the norm," okay?

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:01 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:city im in is capped at 35, state capped at 40, and fed capped at 40. i dont know where yall work. but that aint the norm for govt.


Maybe you live in a terrible city. Or maybe you're completely wrong about federal government hours there. Or maybe you're making shit up again (and again, and again, and again). I haven't met a single government lawyer who gets cut off at 40.


But is that surprising since you aren't a lawyer? If you don't know any government lawyers working 40 hour weeks, you just don't know many lawyers. I don't know any government or nonprofit lawyer working more than 40 hour weeks.

The point is telling OP that there are no law jobs that have a work life balance for family time is flat out wrong. I know multiple lawyers with families in small law and mid law that work 40 hour weeks and I know tons of govt jobs that provide for the same. Biglaw and some midlaw are really the exceptions here. Shitlaw, midlaw for the most part, in house (a little more than 40 but not much) and government are all fine. And I've also known some solos that work part time schedules of 15-25 hours.

When my friends schedule 5pm happy hours on Friday, everyone but the biglawyers make it.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:12 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:But is that surprising since you aren't a lawyer?


You're right. As an aspiring lawyer, I've made sure to never meet, talk to, or generally inquire about any working attorneys. I think that would be silly.

Also, way to ignore the attorneys on this thread telling you you're wrong (again... does that ever get boring?). And way to move the goalposts away from "40 hours a week maximum" to "work/life balance and partying on Fridays after work".

I'm thinking of beginning all of my replies to you with, "But is that surprising because you never even had the chance to work in biglaw/fedgov/clerkship?" I feel that it would help remind you that you can't actually justify your unbelievably condescending attitude towards anyone who isn't willing to take 25 years to pay off their debt or agree with you on idiotic points like "High LSAT? You'll be the top of your class!"

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:47 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:But is that surprising since you aren't a lawyer?


You're right. As an aspiring lawyer, I've made sure to never meet, talk to, or generally inquire about any working attorneys. I think that would be silly.

Also, way to ignore the attorneys on this thread telling you you're wrong (again... does that ever get boring?). And way to move the goalposts away from "40 hours a week maximum" to "work/life balance and partying on Fridays after work".

I'm thinking of beginning all of my replies to you with, "But is that surprising because you never even had the chance to work in biglaw/fedgov/clerkship?" I feel that it would help remind you that you can't actually justify your unbelievably condescending attitude towards anyone who isn't willing to take 25 years to pay off their debt or agree with you on idiotic points like "High LSAT? You'll be the top of your class!"


I don't care if OP is risk averse and doesn't want to take debt or whatever. I just want people to have the right INFO so they can be the ones to make an INFORMED DECISIONS. I just have to make sure people get the right info. These are all highly personal decisions.

If 20% of attorneys work in govt and 10% are solos, seems like at least 30% of attorneys have work life balance. And some portion of in house, small firm and midlaw have work life balance too. Which gets you to actually well over 50% of lawyers having work life balance. Just because people at top schools self select out into biglaw doesn't mean that's the norm for the profession. Biglaw is a tiny piece of the legal profession (despite what this board thinks).

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:49 pm

And sure - you can say whatever you want to me on here. I just think OP should know one of us is a lawyer and the other isn't when he tries to determine who has the better handle on the profession.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:28 pm

Johann, I get that you want to fight with cavalier and be the contrarian on this site, and sometimes that's actually helpful, but stop making dogmatic statements like "people in government can't work more than 40 hours/wk" when you're doing so. If nothing else, it undermines the effectiveness of your contrarianness. (Signed, a government lawyer.)

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:55 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Johann, I get that you want to fight with cavalier and be the contrarian on this site, and sometimes that's actually helpful, but stop making dogmatic statements like "people in government can't work more than 40 hours/wk" when you're doing so. If nothing else, it undermines the effectiveness of your contrarianness. (Signed, a government lawyer.)


well why dont you say what percent of your govt colleagues work more than 40 hour weeks than. i dont work in govt. but i know people who work for bigfed, city govt (weird entities and in the local courthouse), and states attorney office etc. nobody works more than a 40 hour week. court clerks dont. PDs dont. state attonreys dont. bigfed im familiar with doesnt. not sure what's left.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:24 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Johann, I get that you want to fight with cavalier and be the contrarian on this site, and sometimes that's actually helpful, but stop making dogmatic statements like "people in government can't work more than 40 hours/wk" when you're doing so. If nothing else, it undermines the effectiveness of your contrarianness. (Signed, a government lawyer.)


well why dont you say what percent of your govt colleagues work more than 40 hour weeks than. i dont work in govt. but i know people who work for bigfed, city govt (weird entities and in the local courthouse), and states attorney office etc. nobody works more than a 40 hour week. court clerks dont. PDs dont. state attonreys dont. bigfed im familiar with doesnt. not sure what's left.

Okay, first, your original statement was that people in government *can't* work more than 40 hours a week, which you seem to have dialed back from without acknowledging that that was bullshit. Second, in my last office, people regularly worked late/at home/on the weekends. I'd say 80% were there more than 40 hours a week. (Haven't been in my new office long enough to compare, but I know people come in on the weekends, and I know there's significant resentment of one attorney who keeps a strict 9-5 schedule for being a slacker.) A friend of mine who was on sick leave recovering from surgery was working last Friday morning because she had a response due to a motion for new trial. Anyone who's prepping for trial or in trial works long days/weekends. (Number of trials per year varies, but 3-5 maybe? And of course trial could be multi-week.) Also, depending on the jurisdiction, ADAs and PDs are definitely working more than 40 hours a week (I think our local PDs have case loads of over 200).

Again, I'm not saying its the equivalent of biglaw. Some of those weeks it's not going to be *much* more than 40. And overall it's going to be much more compatible with work-life balance, especially in other agencies than mine (which is probably at the longest-hour end of the spectrum). But what you said was wrong.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Shakawkaw » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:02 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Johann, I get that you want to fight with cavalier and be the contrarian on this site, and sometimes that's actually helpful, but stop making dogmatic statements like "people in government can't work more than 40 hours/wk" when you're doing so. If nothing else, it undermines the effectiveness of your contrarianness. (Signed, a government lawyer.)


well why dont you say what percent of your govt colleagues work more than 40 hour weeks than. i dont work in govt. but i know people who work for bigfed, city govt (weird entities and in the local courthouse), and states attorney office etc. nobody works more than a 40 hour week. court clerks dont. PDs dont. state attonreys dont. bigfed im familiar with doesnt. not sure what's left.


Another government employee here. All of the ADAs in my office work well over 40 hour work weeks - especially if they're on trial. I'm not even an attorney and I pull in over 40 hour work weeks sometimes. I don't even understand how this is an argument we're having.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:37 pm

fair enough.

people i know are capped because of their office hours/policies. the city court house is open less than 40 hours a week, which obviously clerks work out of but also PDs and the like. the states attorneys office is open 40 hours a week. the bigfed people i know cant travel on weekends/outside of working hours.

i dont know any ADAs, but the PD i know works 730/8-3:30 M-F.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:02 pm

...so PDs or state's attorneys can't get into the building after hours?? or work at home?

I work in a courthouse that's open 8:30-4:40, and my office closes at 5, and that doesn't mean anything.

(Does work = travel? Again, it's true that some agencies cap you, but it's not at all universal.)

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby jjcorvino » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:57 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:govt work has a by definition light schedule since you cant work over 40 hrs

Can't tell if this is a flame. There are plenty of attorneys who are in the public sector pulling private sector hours.

Yeah, I missed this. Fuck, I wish someone had told me I can't work over 40 hours! Guess all those extra hours I put in were totally illegal.

(TBF - there *are* some federal agencies where you can't work over 40 hours. It's not universal BY ANY MEANS, especially in competitive federal lawyer jobs. Overall federal work is often much better than biglaw, but lol at getting cut off at 40 hours.)


I worked for the federal govt for over a year and a half. I worked on average 60 hours a week, some weeks more if I was on a trip or we had big events. No overtime. There is definitely not a 40hr limit :lol: .

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:01 am

JohannDeMann wrote:i dont know any ADAs, but the PD i know works 730/8-3:30 M-F.


It occurs to me that since you have repeatedly asserted you don't know anyone who actually enjoys being a lawyer, maybe you only know lawyers who put in the bare minimum at work. I know quite a few PDs, and I cannot imagine them calling it quits after a 40-hour work week.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby ZVBXRPL » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:43 am

Wow. This has turned into a b-fest. Everyone screaming how much smarter they are than the next. Low self esteem. Classic TLS.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:47 am

ZVBXRPL wrote:Wow. This has turned into a b-fest. Everyone screaming how much smarter they are than the next. Low self esteem. Classic TLS.


Don't forget about the assholes trying to talk trash about other people's hypothetical marriages. Those are the best.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby ZVBXRPL » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:51 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:Wow. This has turned into a b-fest. Everyone screaming how much smarter they are than the next. Low self esteem. Classic TLS.


Don't forget about the assholes trying to talk trash about other people's hypothetical marriages. Those are the best.

Glad to know I hit a chord. Satisfaction!

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby potus » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:00 am

Hey all. Too lazy to read through since it seems the thread derailed. Did you all ever come to a consensus of some kind about Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)? Or was it to retake?

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:03 am

potus wrote:Hey all. Too lazy to read through since it seems the thread derailed. Did you all ever come to a consensus of some kind about Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)? Or was it to retake?


The consensus (as much as there has been a consensus) was for the OP to actually figure out their career goals, since it seemed like there was a gulf between their desire for biglaw and their wife's desire for the OP to not have to work long hours. That's why we've entered the weird-ass Jeopardy category of "Legal Jobs That Require 40 Hours a Week or Less" and a pointless discussion about government jobs when the OP indicated absolutely zero interest in working for the government.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby potus » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:54 pm

Hey, sorry to bump up this thread. I have to decide between Cardozo or going for Fordham or better next cycle. I have a 40k/yr scholly to Cardozo, which leaves me around COA 50k. I'm interested in going to Cardozo for public interest/gov/small firm, and not interested in big law at all. While Fordham, from what I've read, gives a bump in terms of biglaw -- How's the discrepancy between Cardozo and Fordham when it comes to employment in PI and working outside of biglaw?

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Shakawkaw » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:03 pm

potus wrote:Hey, sorry to bump up this thread. I have to decide between Cardozo or going for Fordham or better next cycle. I have a 40k/yr scholly to Cardozo, which leaves me around COA 50k. I'm interested in going to Cardozo for public interest/gov/small firm, and not interested in big law at all. While Fordham, from what I've read, gives a bump in terms of biglaw -- How's the discrepancy between Cardozo and Fordham when it comes to employment in PI and working outside of biglaw?


Are you including rent in your COA calculations? I also want to go the PI route, and am likely committing to Dozo for that reason.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Dozo has better placement in PI and small firm work. I don't think Fordham is worth how ever much debt for similar desired outcomes.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby potus » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:10 pm

Shakawkaw wrote:Are you including rent in your COA calculations? I also want to go the PI route, and am likely committing to Dozo for that reason.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Dozo has better placement in PI and small firm work. I don't think Fordham is worth how ever much debt for similar desired outcomes.


Sadly, but fortunately, my rent's all covered in NYC. That's pretty interesting; thanks so much for sharing this comparison. I like Cardozo as an option, but it's hard to pull myself away from retaking (in which I still would keep my job) and believing that I can score higher. However, my options would still very likely be Fordham vs. Cardozo even in the next cycle, unless I have a breakthrough bump for Columbia/NYU.

I'll have to make the decision by tomorrow's deposit deadline.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Shakawkaw » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:12 pm

potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Are you including rent in your COA calculations? I also want to go the PI route, and am likely committing to Dozo for that reason.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Dozo has better placement in PI and small firm work. I don't think Fordham is worth how ever much debt for similar desired outcomes.


Sadly, but fortunately, my rent's all covered in NYC. That's pretty interesting; thanks so much for sharing this comparison. I like Cardozo as an option, but it's hard to pull myself away from retaking (in which I still would keep my job) and believing that I can score higher. However, my options would still very likely be Fordham vs. Cardozo even in the next cycle, unless I have a breakthrough bump for Columbia/NYU.

I'll have to make the decision by tomorrow's deposit deadline.


Did you underperform on the LSAT? 50K COA for PI as the desired outcome is not bad at all. How much is Fordham giving you/what's the COA for that route?

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby baseballfan660 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:27 pm

potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Are you including rent in your COA calculations? I also want to go the PI route, and am likely committing to Dozo for that reason.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Dozo has better placement in PI and small firm work. I don't think Fordham is worth how ever much debt for similar desired outcomes.


Sadly, but fortunately, my rent's all covered in NYC. That's pretty interesting; thanks so much for sharing this comparison. I like Cardozo as an option, but it's hard to pull myself away from retaking (in which I still would keep my job) and believing that I can score higher. However, my options would still very likely be Fordham vs. Cardozo even in the next cycle, unless I have a breakthrough bump for Columbia/NYU.

I'll have to make the decision by tomorrow's deposit deadline.

Are you doing May Entry? I don't think either school has a deposit deadline tomorrow otherwise.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby potus » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:31 pm

baseballfan660 wrote:
potus wrote:
Shakawkaw wrote:Are you including rent in your COA calculations? I also want to go the PI route, and am likely committing to Dozo for that reason.

https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cardozo/fordham/

Dozo has better placement in PI and small firm work. I don't think Fordham is worth how ever much debt for similar desired outcomes.


Sadly, but fortunately, my rent's all covered in NYC. That's pretty interesting; thanks so much for sharing this comparison. I like Cardozo as an option, but it's hard to pull myself away from retaking (in which I still would keep my job) and believing that I can score higher. However, my options would still very likely be Fordham vs. Cardozo even in the next cycle, unless I have a breakthrough bump for Columbia/NYU.

I'll have to make the decision by tomorrow's deposit deadline.

Are you doing May Entry? I don't think either school has a deposit deadline tomorrow otherwise.


Yep. It's May entry. I might need or want to negotiate with them to move the admissions to Fall and cite financial concerns. But I'll be happy to reapply next cycle if it does backfire. Perhaps that's the next step for me.



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