Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:39 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:a full scholly means youre much smarter than your peers and you should be able to at least guarantee yourself top 25% just based on work ethic alone. if you get the concepts at all, can type fast, and bust your ass, youve got a good chance at top 10% (75% id estimate).

Dude, I'm actually more sympathetic to a lot of your advice than most people here, but this is really not defensible.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:42 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:a full scholly means youre much smarter than your peers and you should be able to at least guarantee yourself top 25% just based on work ethic alone. if you get the concepts at all, can type fast, and bust your ass, youve got a good chance at top 10% (75% id estimate).

Dude, I'm actually more sympathetic to a lot of your advice than most people here, but this is really not defensible.


you dont think having a gpa and lsat in the 90th% at a school means anything? i strongly disagree. 50% of the students at these schools are not trying to bust their ass and learn the law.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:47 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:you dont think having a gpa and lsat in the 90th% at a school means anything? i strongly disagree. 50% of the students at these schools are not trying to bust their ass and learn the law.


I hear that 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Dave118 wrote:Thanks all for responding.

I understand retaking would give me a shot at NYU etc but it would mean pushing off law school another year, which I'm unable to do.

Just to clarify, I'm undecided if I'd like to go into big law or open a small firm. Should I choose to open a small firm then obviously Cardozo with full scholarship is the better option. Likewise, if I was absolutely set on big law then I think $60k is a reasonable investment. However, I'm not set either way. Is it worth $60k to keep my options open, or can I expect to keep my options open by working my ass off in Cardozo? (Obviously I understand that I'm never guaranteed as everyone in Cardozo is smart and working towards the same goal but the same can be said about Fordham and yet the consensus is that spending money on Fordham is worth it if I'm set on big law.)


How are you "unable" to take a year off? Do you have a physical infirmity that will only set in if you're not in law school by September?

If you go to these schools, biglaw will not be a realistic option (yes, even from Fordham, the jewel of NYC). You aren't keeping your options open no matter which one you choose, so either resign yourself to not getting a biglaw job, or suck it up and retake.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:48 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:a full scholly means youre much smarter than your peers and you should be able to at least guarantee yourself top 25% just based on work ethic alone. if you get the concepts at all, can type fast, and bust your ass, youve got a good chance at top 10% (75% id estimate).

Dude, I'm actually more sympathetic to a lot of your advice than most people here, but this is really not defensible.


you dont think having a gpa and lsat in the 90th% at a school means anything? i strongly disagree. 50% of the students at these schools are not trying to bust their ass and learn the law.

I disagree you can be so dogmatic about it. What about all the really smart people who didn't find TLS and didn't retake the LSAT? What about all the people for whom UG was a while ago and they've got their act together since then? Also, the GPA/LSAT bands at a given school are often pretty narrow, so we're not talking about a vast gulf in scores between classmates. Even if you can rule out the 50% (which I don't think you can), you can't predict where you're going to be in the other 50%.

FWIW, my school wasn't ranked too far off Cardozo and it was filled with smart, hard-working people.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:57 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:a full scholly means youre much smarter than your peers and you should be able to at least guarantee yourself top 25% just based on work ethic alone. if you get the concepts at all, can type fast, and bust your ass, youve got a good chance at top 10% (75% id estimate).

Dude, I'm actually more sympathetic to a lot of your advice than most people here, but this is really not defensible.


you dont think having a gpa and lsat in the 90th% at a school means anything? i strongly disagree. 50% of the students at these schools are not trying to bust their ass and learn the law.

I disagree you can be so dogmatic about it. What about all the really smart people who didn't find TLS and didn't retake the LSAT? What about all the people for whom UG was a while ago and they've got their act together since then? Also, the GPA/LSAT bands at a given school are often pretty narrow, so we're not talking about a vast gulf in scores between classmates. Even if you can rule out the 50% (which I don't think you can), you can't predict where you're going to be in the other 50%.

FWIW, my school wasn't ranked too far off Cardozo and it was filled with smart, hard-working people.


the caliber of law student has significantly deteriorated since we went to law school. when i was at a TTT it was filled with 162 first attempt and dones and/or 3.8 undergrad students. there were even multiple splitters with 170+. not the same game today statistically. thats fair if you dont agree that 50% of law students mail it in. in my experience, its at least that. 300 person class with 1 library and it was a ghost town after 5pm. there was a sign in sheet for the weekend to get into the building and it usually topped out in the low teens on sunday. obviously, exceptions before big exams and legal writing assignments, but id estimate ppl put in about 5-10hrs per week outside of class which is just enough time to do the reading. if you are busting your ass for 5-10 hours a day, i dont see a way you cant be top 25%. i dont know 1 person that put that effort in and didnt end up with results. i know plenty of people who didnt put effort in and ended up with results, but about 5-10 people in a class of 300 put in the 50 hour study week and they all were law review & order of the coif & booking classes left and right.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby ZVBXRPL » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:34 pm

You didn't get any need-based aid? Any offers from T-14 (I'm curious)?
Last edited by ZVBXRPL on Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:34 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:you dont think having a gpa and lsat in the 90th% at a school means anything? i strongly disagree. 50% of the students at these schools are not trying to bust their ass and learn the law.


I hear that 63% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Dave118 wrote:Thanks all for responding.

I understand retaking would give me a shot at NYU etc but it would mean pushing off law school another year, which I'm unable to do.

Just to clarify, I'm undecided if I'd like to go into big law or open a small firm. Should I choose to open a small firm then obviously Cardozo with full scholarship is the better option. Likewise, if I was absolutely set on big law then I think $60k is a reasonable investment. However, I'm not set either way. Is it worth $60k to keep my options open, or can I expect to keep my options open by working my ass off in Cardozo? (Obviously I understand that I'm never guaranteed as everyone in Cardozo is smart and working towards the same goal but the same can be said about Fordham and yet the consensus is that spending money on Fordham is worth it if I'm set on big law.)


How are you "unable" to take a year off? Do you have a physical infirmity that will only set in if you're not in law school by September?

If you go to these schools, biglaw will not be a realistic option (yes, even from Fordham, the jewel of NYC). You aren't keeping your options open no matter which one you choose, so either resign yourself to not getting a biglaw job, or suck it up and retake.


I want to echo this, and I'm going to try this one more time:

Dude, taking a year off might suck, but think about what it could get you. You're currently considering paying substantially more for a school because it will give you 1/3 odds at landing big law. Score 1-2 points higher on the LSAT and you'll be getting $$$ at school's that can make it easily the modal outcome. It's not like you need to drastically improve your score here, retake the test, apply on the day the apps open and dramatically increase the odds of the outcome you want.

Now clearly big law blows and most see it as a stepping stone rather than a career. If you'd expressed interest in working at a small firm or as a DA in NYC I'd tell you to go to Cardozo in a heartbeat. But generally "I'm interested in big law but want to keep my options open" seems like code for "I don't want to retake" on this forum.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Dave118 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:36 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
How are you "unable" to take a year off? Do you have a physical infirmity that will only set in if you're not in law school by September?

If you go to these schools, biglaw will not be a realistic option (yes, even from Fordham, the jewel of NYC). You aren't keeping your options open no matter which one you choose, so either resign yourself to not getting a biglaw job, or suck it up and retake.


Not a physical infirmity but my wife's wrath will set in if I'm not in law school by September. With all due respect, going to Fordham is definitely keeping my options open even if not as nearly as much as the top schools.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Dave118 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:38 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:You didn't get any need-based aid? Any offers from T-14 (I'm curious)?


I'm not eligible for any need-based aid. I only applied to some T-14s but I was WL at Upenn and haven't heard yet from any others.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Dave118 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:40 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:Now clearly big law blows and most see it as a stepping stone rather than a career. If you'd expressed interest in working at a small firm or as a DA in NYC I'd tell you to go to Cardozo in a heartbeat. But generally "I'm interested in big law but want to keep my options open" seems like code for "I don't want to retake" on this forum.


Yeah. Also if you read the thread you'll see that I'm not interested in retaking. Good detective work though.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:43 pm

Dave118 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
How are you "unable" to take a year off? Do you have a physical infirmity that will only set in if you're not in law school by September?

If you go to these schools, biglaw will not be a realistic option (yes, even from Fordham, the jewel of NYC). You aren't keeping your options open no matter which one you choose, so either resign yourself to not getting a biglaw job, or suck it up and retake.


Not a physical infirmity but my wife's wrath will set in if I'm not in law school by September. With all due respect, going to Fordham is definitely keeping my options open even if not as nearly as much as the top schools.


First of all, Fordham won't keep you options anywhere near as open as the top schools, that's just demonstrably false.

Second of all, if you actually examine and explain the spectacular advantages taking a year off could have for your career, are you entirely sure your wife wouldn't be understanding. Failing to take that into account seems incredibly short cited.

I think I'm going to give up now because I've said all the above several times. But understand that I spend as much time as I do posting on this choosing a law school forum specifically because I didn't want to put off school for a year and retake the lsat, and in retrospect, it's clear that that's exactly what I should have done. I get that there's no one-size-fits-all advice, but maxing your LSAT potential comes pretty damn close.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Dave118 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:54 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
Dave118 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
How are you "unable" to take a year off? Do you have a physical infirmity that will only set in if you're not in law school by September?

If you go to these schools, biglaw will not be a realistic option (yes, even from Fordham, the jewel of NYC). You aren't keeping your options open no matter which one you choose, so either resign yourself to not getting a biglaw job, or suck it up and retake.


Not a physical infirmity but my wife's wrath will set in if I'm not in law school by September. With all due respect, going to Fordham is definitely keeping my options open even if not as nearly as much as the top schools.


First of all, Fordham won't keep you options anywhere near as open as the top schools, that's just demonstrably false.

Second of all, if you actually examine and explain the spectacular advantages taking a year off could have for your career, are you entirely sure your wife wouldn't be understanding. Failing to take that into account seems incredibly short cited.

I think I'm going to give up now because I've said all the above several times. But understand that I spend as much time as I do posting on this choosing a law school forum specifically because I didn't want to put off school for a year and retake the lsat, and in retrospect, it's clear that that's exactly what I should have done. I get that there's no one-size-fits-all advice, but maxing your LSAT potential comes pretty damn close.


Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Gitaroo_Dude » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:34 am

Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


I would avoid showing her this thread, and instead show her the retake success stories thread. Can't find it at the moment but someone will probably point you in the right direction.

Anecdotally, I skipped last year's cycle in order to retake and apply this cycle, and it was probably the best decision of my life.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:55 am

Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby ZVBXRPL » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:47 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.

Cav you're either not married or in a very controlling relationship.

As a married man, you have an obligation to make your wife happy. I am perfectly fine with moving to Ithaca. The wife is not. I argued that 3 years can determine the rest of our lives, and employment prospects are better at a top school. Blah, blah, blah. She wants to stay local - near her parents. And I have an obligation to listen to her.

Of course Dave's wife is concerned with his career and future, but not at the expense of losing her husband to a firm. Can you blame her? Now, throw a full scholarship on top of that.

Bottom line is: if your spouse or SO isn't 100% on board with big decisions, it's going to be hard to perform well. That is, even if I convinced her to move to Ithaca, who's to say she won't be miserable in a year? Sure dave could try convincing her, but if that doesn't work then that's life.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:25 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.

Cav you're either not married or in a very controlling relationship.

As a married man, you have an obligation to make your wife happy. I am perfectly fine with moving to Ithaca. The wife is not. I argued that 3 years can determine the rest of our lives, and employment prospects are better at a top school. Blah, blah, blah. She wants to stay local - near her parents. And I have an obligation to listen to her.

Of course Dave's wife is concerned with his career and future, but not at the expense of losing her husband to a firm. Can you blame her? Now, throw a full scholarship on top of that.

Bottom line is: if your spouse or SO isn't 100% on board with big decisions, it's going to be hard to perform well. That is, even if I convinced her to move to Ithaca, who's to say she won't be miserable in a year? Sure dave could try convincing her, but if that doesn't work then that's life.


Gosh, it's almost like you wrapped a completely inane truism (happy wife, happy life) in an irrelevant comment. That's impressive.

If you read what I actually wrote, I said that the OP needs to communicate with their wife, because they clearly haven't talked about the realities of the OP becoming a lawyer at any kind of firm. Working at a small firm won't be that much less of a strain on his schedule, but it sure as hell will be a strain on the family budget. And this has jack squat to do with being "controlling". A marriage is a partnership, and both partners need to be on the same page about how their spouse's educational and career choices will affect that partnership.

At no point did I say, "Tell your wife this is what you will do and to go make you a sandwich." I said that they need to have an actual discussion about what law school and a career in the law would mean for the OP. But thanks for the pithy advice and erroneous assumptions about my marriage; doing that made sure that it was a real effort to substantively respond to your post instead of just writing, "Fuck off."

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby commlaw05 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:40 pm

Hey, I'm in the same decision boat and thought I'd chime in. I'm deci
Last edited by commlaw05 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:00 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.


govt work has a by definition light schedule since you cant work over 40 hrs

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:01 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.

Cav you're either not married or in a very controlling relationship.

As a married man, you have an obligation to make your wife happy. I am perfectly fine with moving to Ithaca. The wife is not. I argued that 3 years can determine the rest of our lives, and employment prospects are better at a top school. Blah, blah, blah. She wants to stay local - near her parents. And I have an obligation to listen to her.

Of course Dave's wife is concerned with his career and future, but not at the expense of losing her husband to a firm. Can you blame her? Now, throw a full scholarship on top of that.

Bottom line is: if your spouse or SO isn't 100% on board with big decisions, it's going to be hard to perform well. That is, even if I convinced her to move to Ithaca, who's to say she won't be miserable in a year? Sure dave could try convincing her, but if that doesn't work then that's life.


should not be a surprise that cavalier has no experience with compromising with wives/SOs

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby landshoes » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:13 pm

commlaw05 wrote:Hey, I'm in the same decision boat and thought I'd chime in. I'm deciding also between Cardozo at almost full ride and almost no money at Fordham. Graduating from an ivy in May. I'm really torn because I have no idea what kind of law I want to practice but see myself somewhere in sports/entertainment law (Cardozo's FAME program is appealing). I was really really happy to get into Fordham but now I'm wondering if it's worth taking out loans for. My biggest concern with Cardozo is the general student body and the post grad prospects. From what I can see, employment is not a problem when graduating close to the top? (Perhaps even better than graduating middle to bottom of the pack at Fordham). What are people's opinions of student body? I attended Fordham ASD and saw a very high level of student and wondering what the mix will be like at Cardozo. I want to do well but at the same time be surrounded by my peers. Any input would be super appreciated! Thanks :)


Don't go to law school, get a job.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:15 pm

commlaw05 wrote:Hey, I'm in the same decision boat and thought I'd chime in. I'm deciding also between Cardozo at almost full ride and almost no money at Fordham. Graduating from an ivy in May. I'm really torn because I have no idea what kind of law I want to practice but see myself somewhere in sports/entertainment law (Cardozo's FAME program is appealing). I was really really happy to get into Fordham but now I'm wondering if it's worth taking out loans for. My biggest concern with Cardozo is the general student body and the post grad prospects. From what I can see, employment is not a problem when graduating close to the top? (Perhaps even better than graduating middle to bottom of the pack at Fordham). What are people's opinions of student body? I attended Fordham ASD and saw a very high level of student and wondering what the mix will be like at Cardozo. I want to do well but at the same time be surrounded by my peers. Any input would be super appreciated! Thanks :)


Yeah, agree with the above post. Take some time off.

And you shouldn't be asking yourself what the prospects are from the top of the class at any law school, much less worrying about whether you're going to be around your intellectual "peers". Hint: if you're at the same law school, you're their intellectual peer, even if you think you're much, much smarter than they are.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby bretby » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:09 pm

Dave118 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:You didn't get any need-based aid? Any offers from T-14 (I'm curious)?


I'm not eligible for any need-based aid. I only applied to some T-14s but I was WL at Upenn and haven't heard yet from any others.


I think this has been overlooked in this thread. While you could most likely get into a higher-ranked school with a couple points higher on the LSAT, I don't think you would get any significant aid from them. Your choice would then be the perennial a lot of money at lower-ranked school vs. little to no money at higher-ranked school. I'm not sure what your ambitions are, but if you're not sold on big law, then taking out more money to go to NYU, for example, would probably not be a wise choice.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Shakawkaw » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:18 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Dave118 wrote:Thank you. My wife isn't crazy about me spending all my time in a law firm so she's pushing Cardozo and definitely not going to be happy with me taking an extra year, no matter what the benefits. I will show her this thread though....


Specifically tell your wife that if she's concerned with your future career (and she ought to be, since she presumably wants your marriage to be a joint venture), then taking the time to make sure you go to the right school is absolutely essential. You should probably also let her know that there's no such thing as a law firm with a light schedule, so if you two haven't figured out whether that's manageable, that's another discussion that needs to have already happened.


govt work has a by definition light schedule since you cant work over 40 hrs

Can't tell if this is a flame. There are plenty of attorneys who are in the public sector pulling private sector hours.

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:23 pm

Shakawkaw wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:govt work has a by definition light schedule since you cant work over 40 hrs

Can't tell if this is a flame. There are plenty of attorneys who are in the public sector pulling private sector hours.

Yeah, I missed this. Fuck, I wish someone had told me I can't work over 40 hours! Guess all those extra hours I put in were totally illegal.

(TBF - there *are* some federal agencies where you can't work over 40 hours. It's not universal BY ANY MEANS, especially in competitive federal lawyer jobs. Overall federal work is often much better than biglaw, but lol at getting cut off at 40 hours.)

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Re: Cardozo ($$$$) vs Fordham ($$)

Postby Johann » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:14 am

city im in is capped at 35, state capped at 40, and fed capped at 40. i dont know where yall work. but that aint the norm for govt.



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