Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

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Lawser24
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Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:05 pm

163/3.8, no retake. Ultimate career goal is to end up somewhere in professional sports, preferably in Texas or California.

Tulane (120K scholly) has best program to get your foot in the door in sports but is in Louisiana.
Pepperdine (156K) also has multiple options and a great dispute resolution program and is in the SoCal epicenter for entertainment/media/sports.
SMU (90K) is the "highest ranked" school I've been accepted and is in a huge legal market in Dallas.
Still waiting on a word from UT (complete late December).

Visited Pepperdine and Tulane and liked both pretty equally. Visiting SMU and UT in the next few weeks. Planning to negotiate scholly with everyone. While I'd like to avoid debt, I can't imagine turning down an offer from UT if accepted. However, I'm not sure I would want to take on ~90k in debt when my goal is not to get into biglaw and be able to pay it off quickly. I also felt really confident that I could achieve my goals at TU & PU and not be stressed out of my mind like I most likely would be at UT.

Thoughts? (honesty is encouraged)

cavalier1138
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:22 pm

When you talk about ending up "somewhere in professional sports", have you actually got some kind of specific practice in mind? I don't know exactly what that career track looks like, but I'm under the impression that very few people graduate into in-house positions for professional teams.

Js1482
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Js1482 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:27 pm

From what I've gathered about Tulane's sports law program, the odds of you getting a job in sports is slim. Those jobs are very scarce. But my impression of Tulane is that its national reach is stronger than its ranking would imply. So, I wouldn't really be worried about Tulane's location. I am in a similar situation with you in regards to SMU. No way can I justify choosing a 90k scholly at SMU over significantly more money at Tulane or even some higher ranked schools. If you do get into UT, you won't get any money. If I was you, and you really are set on working in sports, I'd choose Tulane and use Pepperdine to try to negotiate a better scholarship.

grades??
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby grades?? » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:33 pm

You understand working in sports isn't a thing right? Like even if you did "sports law", its literally just contract work. Even if its a thing, you wont get it from any of these schools.

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zot1
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:33 pm

Please elaborate as to what you mean when you say you want to work in sports. If you want to be in-house counsel for a team or the leagues, you will either need contracts, labor, or IP experience (or a mix of both or all). None of these positions hire out of law school and most require five years of experience. Therefore, you would need the school that would put you in the best position to gain that experience. Your choices are highly risky in this regard.

Pepperdine is not in the epicenter of anything. It is in Malibu. And honestly, not as well-regarded as other California schools.

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guybourdin
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby guybourdin » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:36 pm

zot1 wrote:Pepperdine is not in the epicenter of anything. It is in Malibu. And honestly, not as well-regarded as other California schools.

Image

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zot1
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:44 pm

guybourdin wrote:
zot1 wrote:Pepperdine is not in the epicenter of anything. It is in Malibu. And honestly, not as well-regarded as other California schools.

Image


No, no, no. People just get sidetracked sometimes if they're not from Cali. Like when I met someone who only wanted to LMU because they've been told that was the best school to go to in LA. Lol.

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guybourdin
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby guybourdin » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:46 pm

zot1 wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
zot1 wrote:Pepperdine is not in the epicenter of anything. It is in Malibu. And honestly, not as well-regarded as other California schools.

Image


No, no, no. People just get sidetracked sometimes if they're not from Cali. Like when I met someone who only wanted to LMU because they've been told that was the best school to go to in LA. Lol.


I have actually heard on more than one occasion that Loyola (Chicago) produces the best attorneys in the city. More practical learning experience or some such nonsense.

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Lawser24 wrote:Ultimate career goal is to end up somewhere in professional sports


Yes, I know I can't graduate into an in-house position, etc. And I apologize for being vague about wanting to work in sports. I'm not entirely sure what I want to do, there are plenty of ways to work in sports and yes, I also know that it's contracts/negotiation/IP/labor law. If that stuff is related to or for a profession team, that is my definition of working in sports. The connections I would be able to make through these schools in the business of sports is why I'm interested. Not because I think I can be the GM of the Yankees straight out of school lol...

I know Pepperdine is in Malibu. It's a 45 minute drive to LA, so they get a ton of people out to talk on panels and networking opportunities and whatnot.

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:57 pm

Lawser24 wrote:The connections I would be able to make through these schools in the business of sports is why I'm interested.


Where are you getting the impression that these schools are particularly good for networking in that field? It does also sound like you're more interested in the business side of things than in sports law...

But that's neither here nor there. Any sort of work that could properly be termed "sports law" is not something that you generally get right after school. So what do you want/need to do after graduating to get where you want to be?

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:The connections I would be able to make through these schools in the business of sports is why I'm interested.


Where are you getting the impression that these schools are particularly good for networking in that field? It does also sound like you're more interested in the business side of things than in sports law...

But that's neither here nor there. Any sort of work that could properly be termed "sports law" is not something that you generally get right after school. So what do you want/need to do after graduating to get where you want to be?


After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.

And again, I understand that my "ultimate career goal" is not something I will get right out of college, that's why "ultimate". Currently, I want to focus on getting a solid foundation in contracts/IP/labor/negotiation and whatever else might ultimately get me into sports.

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zot1
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:04 pm

Lawser24 wrote:
I know Pepperdine is in Malibu. It's a 45 minute drive to LA, so they get a ton of people out to talk on panels and networking opportunities and whatnot.


If you don't qualify at what time of the day this drive would be 45 minutes, it's easy to see you need to chat more about this with a local.

It's taken me 1 hour to get from Sunset to Wilshire (6-8 blocks) because LA traffic.

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:09 pm

Lawser24 wrote:After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.


Ah, there's your problem.

Of course the students and admissions-approved faculty are going to tell you about how awesome their "specialty program" is. You need to look at actual job outcomes, not the vague promise of research or student organizations.

Find a lawyer in a position that you want to have. Talk to them. Find out how they got their job. Rinse and repeat until you start to figure out the actual paths you need to be considering.

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:39 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.


Ah, there's your problem.

Of course the students and admissions-approved faculty are going to tell you about how awesome their "specialty program" is. You need to look at actual job outcomes, not the vague promise of research or student organizations.

Find a lawyer in a position that you want to have. Talk to them. Find out how they got their job. Rinse and repeat until you start to figure out the actual paths you need to be considering.

I see what you are saying and I agree with you. But you are also proving the point of the admissions people and current students. The lawyers and people in the profession are exactly the people that these schools will provide me the chance to connect with. And since I have no 100% direction as to exactly what I wan to do, having the opportunity to meet with people in all sorts of positions is a benefit. I also understand that there are plenty of other opportunities like this at other schools, however, after a lot of research and looking at certain schools around the country, I felt that these were the best options I had given my stats/location/$$$.

On a separate note, I have talked to a few current attorneys in the field that I had as professors at UT and it seems that they got to where they are by networking, being genuine people, working their asses off, and getting a little lucky :lol:

cavalier1138
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:50 pm

Lawser24 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.


Ah, there's your problem.

Of course the students and admissions-approved faculty are going to tell you about how awesome their "specialty program" is. You need to look at actual job outcomes, not the vague promise of research or student organizations.

Find a lawyer in a position that you want to have. Talk to them. Find out how they got their job. Rinse and repeat until you start to figure out the actual paths you need to be considering.

I see what you are saying and I agree with you. But you are also proving the point of the admissions people and current students. The lawyers and people in the profession are exactly the people that these schools will provide me the chance to connect with. And since I have no 100% direction as to exactly what I wan to do, having the opportunity to meet with people in all sorts of positions is a benefit. I also understand that there are plenty of other opportunities like this at other schools, however, after a lot of research and looking at certain schools around the country, I felt that these were the best options I had given my stats/location/$$$.

On a separate note, I have talked to a few current attorneys in the field that I had as professors at UT and it seems that they got to where they are by networking, being genuine people, working their asses off, and getting a little lucky :lol:


So did the admissions people and current students "prove their point" by actually putting you in touch with working alumni in this field? Because if they didn't, then I'm still not helping their point.

If these are your best options based on your stats, fine. But if none of these schools actually set you up for the career you want at the price you can afford, then you need to change your stats.

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jjcorvino
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby jjcorvino » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:56 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.


Ah, there's your problem.

Of course the students and admissions-approved faculty are going to tell you about how awesome their "specialty program" is. You need to look at actual job outcomes, not the vague promise of research or student organizations.

Find a lawyer in a position that you want to have. Talk to them. Find out how they got their job. Rinse and repeat until you start to figure out the actual paths you need to be considering.

I see what you are saying and I agree with you. But you are also proving the point of the admissions people and current students. The lawyers and people in the profession are exactly the people that these schools will provide me the chance to connect with. And since I have no 100% direction as to exactly what I wan to do, having the opportunity to meet with people in all sorts of positions is a benefit. I also understand that there are plenty of other opportunities like this at other schools, however, after a lot of research and looking at certain schools around the country, I felt that these were the best options I had given my stats/location/$$$.

On a separate note, I have talked to a few current attorneys in the field that I had as professors at UT and it seems that they got to where they are by networking, being genuine people, working their asses off, and getting a little lucky :lol:


So did the admissions people and current students "prove their point" by actually putting you in touch with working alumni in this field? Because if they didn't, then I'm still not helping their point.

If these are your best options based on your stats, fine. But if none of these schools actually set you up for the career you want at the price you can afford, then you need to change your stats.


I agree 100% with this. Ask the schools to put you in touch with their alumni that are working in "sports law". If their programs really are good, then they should have no problem giving you a lot of contacts.

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:07 pm

jjcorvino wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Lawser24 wrote:After visiting both schools and talking with various students and faculty, I got a sense that there are more opportunities networking-wise at schools that have "sports law" programs. They have stronger and more involved student organizations when it comes to "sports law" and more opportunities for research/law review/etc.


Ah, there's your problem.

Of course the students and admissions-approved faculty are going to tell you about how awesome their "specialty program" is. You need to look at actual job outcomes, not the vague promise of research or student organizations.

Find a lawyer in a position that you want to have. Talk to them. Find out how they got their job. Rinse and repeat until you start to figure out the actual paths you need to be considering.

I see what you are saying and I agree with you. But you are also proving the point of the admissions people and current students. The lawyers and people in the profession are exactly the people that these schools will provide me the chance to connect with. And since I have no 100% direction as to exactly what I wan to do, having the opportunity to meet with people in all sorts of positions is a benefit. I also understand that there are plenty of other opportunities like this at other schools, however, after a lot of research and looking at certain schools around the country, I felt that these were the best options I had given my stats/location/$$$.

On a separate note, I have talked to a few current attorneys in the field that I had as professors at UT and it seems that they got to where they are by networking, being genuine people, working their asses off, and getting a little lucky :lol:


So did the admissions people and current students "prove their point" by actually putting you in touch with working alumni in this field? Because if they didn't, then I'm still not helping their point.

If these are your best options based on your stats, fine. But if none of these schools actually set you up for the career you want at the price you can afford, then you need to change your stats.


I agree 100% with this. Ask the schools to put you in touch with their alumni that are working in "sports law". If their programs really are good, then they should have no problem giving you a lot of contacts.

Thank you for being honest, I appreciate it. Yeah, I am not retaking or sitting out a cycle, so one of these schools is where I'll be going. UT is still on the table as well, at least until the second seat deposit at the school I put a deposit down at.

Asking the schools to put me in touch with alums is something I didn't think I could do until I was actually at the school, but now that I think about it, why not just ask now... I was actually in the process of emailing the head of the sport law program at Tulane.

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zot1
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:20 pm

You're about to drop $100k+ on a product and you worry about asking questions... would you buy a house without an inspection?

I know you're saying you're not willing to sit out a cycle, but I hope you're okay with possibly working many years on something you never wanted to do in order to service your debt. May the force be with you.

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:21 pm

Lawser24 wrote:Yeah, I am not retaking or sitting out a cycle, so one of these schools is where I'll be going.


Not to rain on your parade, but literally everyone who says some version of that ends up very, very unhappy with how things turned out. Don't make a stupid, rushed decision because you think it's your only option. If your desired career isn't realistically attainable from these schools, then all you'll be getting for your troubles is three years of work and a bunch of debt you can't pay off.

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:47 pm

zot1 wrote:You're about to drop $100k+ on a product and you worry about asking questions... would you buy a house without an inspection?

I know you're saying you're not willing to sit out a cycle, but I hope you're okay with possibly working many years on something you never wanted to do in order to service your debt. May the force be with you.

Well first of all, I'm not worried about asking questions. I had a 15 minute conversation with the Tulane director of admissions about the school, its job placement outside LA, and the sport law program and am going to get in touch with a few students and professors. I simply didn't think about asking them to connect me to alumni working in the field. Second, I won't be dropping $100k+ unless I get into and decide to attend UT. And finally, I have put a lot of thought into this decision. Taking a year off to "get work experience" and to retake and improve stats is the right move for some people, but I see it as just prolonging actually getting to the place you want to be, which as I've mentioned a few times on this thread already, I understand will not be directly after graduation and will take some time. Also, I realize how unenthusiastic "so one of these schools is where I'll be going" sounded, but I'm actually happy to have these options. They're both solid and affordable options for me.

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Lawser24 wrote:
zot1 wrote:You're about to drop $100k+ on a product and you worry about asking questions... would you buy a house without an inspection?

I know you're saying you're not willing to sit out a cycle, but I hope you're okay with possibly working many years on something you never wanted to do in order to service your debt. May the force be with you.

Well first of all, I'm not worried about asking questions. I had a 15 minute conversation with the Tulane director of admissions about the school, its job placement outside LA, and the sport law program and am going to get in touch with a few students and professors. I simply didn't think about asking them to connect me to alumni working in the field. Second, I won't be dropping $100k+ unless I get into and decide to attend UT. And finally, I have put a lot of thought into this decision. Taking a year off to "get work experience" and to retake and improve stats is the right move for some people, but I see it as just prolonging actually getting to the place you want to be, which as I've mentioned a few times on this thread already, I understand will not be directly after graduation and will take some time. Also, I realize how unenthusiastic "so one of these schools is where I'll be going" sounded, but I'm actually happy to have these options. They're both solid and affordable options for me.


Of course you're a K-JD.

I promise that future-you will not have such a rosy view of present-day-you, even if you did have a whopping 15-minute conversation with someone whose only motivation is to sell you on their program being the best of the best.

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zot1
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Lawser24 wrote:
zot1 wrote:You're about to drop $100k+ on a product and you worry about asking questions... would you buy a house without an inspection?

I know you're saying you're not willing to sit out a cycle, but I hope you're okay with possibly working many years on something you never wanted to do in order to service your debt. May the force be with you.

Well first of all, I'm not worried about asking questions. I had a 15 minute conversation with the Tulane director of admissions about the school, its job placement outside LA, and the sport law program and am going to get in touch with a few students and professors. I simply didn't think about asking them to connect me to alumni working in the field. Second, I won't be dropping $100k+ unless I get into and decide to attend UT. And finally, I have put a lot of thought into this decision. Taking a year off to "get work experience" and to retake and improve stats is the right move for some people, but I see it as just prolonging actually getting to the place you want to be, which as I've mentioned a few times on this thread already, I understand will not be directly after graduation and will take some time. Also, I realize how unenthusiastic "so one of these schools is where I'll be going" sounded, but I'm actually happy to have these options. They're both solid and affordable options for me.


Based on the information your provided, assuming housing and other expenses aren't free, and the beauty of compound interest, your debt could very well be in this range.

I'm not here to tell you to retake at all. I'm here to tell you, go if you want to go, but understand you're putting yourself in the best position to be miserable. So that way if this happens to you, you won't go around saying "why did no one warn me I would end up in malpractice defense with all this debt?"

Lawser24
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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby Lawser24 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:20 pm

Look, I get y'all's points points about being miserable and in debt. I've had this conversation with others. @zot1 If I go to either PU or TU I will not be taking out loans. I am fortunate enough to have savings and family that will cover the cost of tuition and living. I also like to think that I will work hard enough and do well enough to be successful. And in all honesty, unless you go to a T14, no one is guaranteed anything right after graduation. Even then, nothing is guaranteed. Being happy and successful as a lawyer is hard work and takes years no matter where you go. And @cavalier1138 I'm sorry if I offended you by saying I don't want to take a year off...

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:21 pm

Lawser24 wrote:I also like to think that I will work hard enough and do well enough to be successful.


I'd like to think that my SO is going to give me a "free pass" to sleep with Scarlett Johansson. You know, since we're talking about unrealistic hopes and dreams...

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Re: Pepperdine v. Tulane v. SMU v. UT(possibly)

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:43 pm

Lawser24 wrote:Look, I get y'all's points points about being miserable and in debt. I've had this conversation with others. @zot1 If I go to either PU or TU I will not be taking out loans. I am fortunate enough to have savings and family that will cover the cost of tuition and living. I also like to think that I will work hard enough and do well enough to be successful. And in all honesty, unless you go to a T14, no one is guaranteed anything right after graduation. Even then, nothing is guaranteed. Being happy and successful as a lawyer is hard work and takes years no matter where you go. And @cavalier1138 I'm sorry if I offended you by saying I don't want to take a year off...


Even if you're going somewhere for free, you're still giving away three years of your life and labor. So it's not actually free. Opportunity cost or something like that.

Working hard enough to be successful isn't a reality of law school or the legal profession. To begin with, law school classes are curved. That means 50% of the people in the class will be in the bottom of the class. You have no way to control where you'll end up because people could be smarter than you, write answers better, maybe you're sick taking an exam, etc. Almost everyone in your class will trying as hard as you, so you can't, with certainty, control where you end up.

This is why people like T14 schools, because at a T14, even if you're below median, you still have a pretty good chance to not only get a job but also get a nice job. As the schools drop in the rankings, so do your likelihood to end up with a desirable outcome.

Being happy and successful as a lawyer does not take hard work and doesn't have to take years. Your success as a lawyer is deeply tied to your opportunities. Your opportunities are highly determined by the school you go to. So the choice you make today can potentially have repercussions for the rest of your life.

Weirdly enough we are saying these things to you because we've been in your position, have graduated, have been in the legal profession (cav and me), and we want you to be warned. Whether you make a terrible decision or not doesn't affect my life. I'll still be going to happy hour at 4 o'clock on a Thursday.




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