Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

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Mahogany
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Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:51 pm

First, let me say that I realize how fortunate I am to be in this situation. I'm struggling to come up with a framework with which to choose either the Hamilton, Vanderbilt, or the Darrow, and I'd like the help of the community here in making a decision. The finances for each option look something like this:

Columbia (CoA less tuition): ~$23,313/year ($69,939 total)
NYU (CoA less tuition): ~$26,420/year ($79,260 total)
Michigan (CoA less tuition & stipend): ~$9,010/year ($27,030 total)

Regardless of which school I attend, I expect to be able to graduate debt free. My goal after graduating is a competitive clerkship and to spend a few years at a firm before leaving for either a government or in-house position. My pipe dream is academia but I am aware that is exceedingly unlikely.

Attending Michigan looks like it would save me at least $50,000. Although I won't take out loans for any of my options, that's still real money. However, I'm not opposed to spending it, especially since it's over a three year period. Are the comparatively better employment prospects at the pricey New York schools worth it, especially with respect to my goals (which I admit are kind of vague)?

Then there's the eternal Columbia vs. NYU debate. Hamilton fellows get to be paired with a faculty mentor and Vanderbilt scholars get to affiliate with one of NYU's many centers, but I'm having a hard time telling if these things actually mean anything or if they're just recruitment tools. I'd appreciate clarification on this point from anyone with direct knowledge. I also can't tell if either of these schools offers better clerkship or academia opportunities than the other. Feel free to make the finest of distinctions since they basically cost the same.

Thanks to anyone who can address one of the points I brought up or anything else that's relevant. I appreciate the help.

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trebekismyhero
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby trebekismyhero » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:43 pm

Do you want to be in DC after you graduate and clerk? Personally I would take Michigan because Columbia and NYU wouldn't be worth $50k to me, but can't go wrong either way.

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HuntedUnicorn
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby HuntedUnicorn » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:46 pm

I think being paired with a faculty member *could* have real value if you want to clerk. I don't think you can go wrong here.

existentialcrisis
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby existentialcrisis » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:50 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:Do you want to be in DC after you graduate and clerk? Personally I would take Michigan because Columbia and NYU wouldn't be worth $50k to me, but can't go wrong either way.


I think CLS or NYU are probably worth 50k more, because they provided relatively significant downside risk in terms of striking out at OCI. Also probably give a better chance of landing a clerkship at some point.

I would take the Hamilton, but I think the Vandy is also fine if you'd really, really prefer living in Greenwich Village or something.

But yes, given that you already have a full tuition scholarship, I think the extra 50k is well worth it for the added job security.

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:00 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:Do you want to be in DC after you graduate and clerk? Personally I would take Michigan because Columbia and NYU wouldn't be worth $50k to me, but can't go wrong either way.


Possibly. I don't really like New York, although I've never lived there and it's possible I could end up learning to love it.

dm1683
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby dm1683 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:08 pm

Mahogany wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:Do you want to be in DC after you graduate and clerk? Personally I would take Michigan because Columbia and NYU wouldn't be worth $50k to me, but can't go wrong either way.


Possibly. I don't really like New York, although I've never lived there and it's possible I could end up learning to love it.


You don't have to have lived in NYC for you to know it's not for you (I found that out in less than a week). From my (albeit limited) experience, NYC doesn't really "grow on" people like other cities sometimes do.

That being said, Columbia and NYU for less than 100k in debt is a great deal. I disagree with the above poster about CN not being worth 50k more than Mich. I love Ann Arbor and Mich is one of my target schools but the gap in opportunities (especially for clerking and biglaw) between Mich and CN is definitely worth spending 50k on IMO (especially if you are going to graduate debt-free regardless).

EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:24 pm

dm1683 wrote:You don't have to have lived in NYC for you to know it's not for you (I found that out in less than a week). From my (albeit limited) experience, NYC doesn't really "grow on" people like other cities sometimes do.

That being said, Columbia and NYU for less than 100k in debt is a great deal. I disagree with the above poster about CN not being worth 50k more than Mich. I love Ann Arbor and Mich is one of my target schools but the gap in opportunities (especially for clerking and biglaw) between Mich and CN is definitely worth spending 50k on IMO (especially if you are going to graduate debt-free regardless).

EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.


Applied to but have not heard anything from Chicago. Given my options, though, it would be hard to justify attending for anything less than full tuition.

dm1683
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby dm1683 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:30 pm

Mahogany wrote:
dm1683 wrote:You don't have to have lived in NYC for you to know it's not for you (I found that out in less than a week). From my (albeit limited) experience, NYC doesn't really "grow on" people like other cities sometimes do.

That being said, Columbia and NYU for less than 100k in debt is a great deal. I disagree with the above poster about CN not being worth 50k more than Mich. I love Ann Arbor and Mich is one of my target schools but the gap in opportunities (especially for clerking and biglaw) between Mich and CN is definitely worth spending 50k on IMO (especially if you are going to graduate debt-free regardless).

EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.


Applied to but have not heard anything from Chicago. Given my options, though, it would be hard to justify attending for anything less than full tuition.


Of course, but if you got both the Hamilton and the Vanderbilt there's no reason to expect you wouldn't be in the running for the Rubenstein (which, like the Darrow, has a stipend). Also keep in mind COL is waaaay lower in Hyde Park than in Upper Manhattan and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower than in Greenwich Village.

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:38 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Mahogany wrote:
dm1683 wrote:You don't have to have lived in NYC for you to know it's not for you (I found that out in less than a week). From my (albeit limited) experience, NYC doesn't really "grow on" people like other cities sometimes do.

That being said, Columbia and NYU for less than 100k in debt is a great deal. I disagree with the above poster about CN not being worth 50k more than Mich. I love Ann Arbor and Mich is one of my target schools but the gap in opportunities (especially for clerking and biglaw) between Mich and CN is definitely worth spending 50k on IMO (especially if you are going to graduate debt-free regardless).

EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.


Applied to but have not heard anything from Chicago. Given my options, though, it would be hard to justify attending for anything less than full tuition.


Of course, but if you got both the Hamilton and the Vanderbilt there's no reason to expect you wouldn't be in the running for the Rubenstein (which, like the Darrow, has a stipend). Also keep in mind COL is waaaay lower in Hyde Park than in Upper Manhattan and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower than in Greenwich Village.


Oh I agree. If I got the Rubenstein with the stipend it would be no contest (and I wouldn't be posting here). But given how late in the cycle it is I'm not sure if they're still handing those out. My main issue right now is understanding how much worse prospects at Michigan are i) generally and ii) for my specific goals than at CCN. For example, I see that Michigan has a higher clerkship rate but I can't imagine that it places higher into competitive clerkships than either Columbia or NYU.

mrgstephe
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby mrgstephe » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:45 pm

dm1683 wrote:
Mahogany wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.


Also high murder rates, if that's the kind of thing you're into.

dm1683
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby dm1683 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:52 pm

mrgstephe wrote:
dm1683 wrote:
Mahogany wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.


Also high murder rates, if that's the kind of thing you're into.


That's only on the south side and parts of the west side. Gang violence mostly. If you're not stupid you'll be fine, just like in any city.

Plus, Trump will be bringing in the army to impose martial law so don't you worry about a thing. :roll:

ambrajdurbra131313
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby ambrajdurbra131313 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:02 pm

I think you'd be fine at Mich- you're not sold on NY, $50K is a lot of money to most people, and, in my experience, the "assume median" thought usually doesn't apply to people with your stats. That being said, I'd pick Columbia, but I love NY. Also, if the $50K is from like very rich parents and not your own savings, that might make me more inclined to be more risk adverse and go there (or NYU)

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Rigo
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Rigo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:03 pm

I'd go Hamilton.

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Rigo wrote:I'd go Hamilton.

Any specific reasons why?

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PrezRand
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby PrezRand » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:11 pm

How is Columbia cheaper than NYU. I thought the Vandy was a full-ride and the Hamilton 50%. Based on this, I would go with Columbia

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Alexandros
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Alexandros » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:12 pm

PrezRand wrote:How is Columbia cheaper than NYU. I thought the Vandy was a full-ride and the Hamilton 50%. Based on this, I would go with Columbia

You thought wrong, dude....

T3TON
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby T3TON » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Mahogany wrote:First, let me say that I realize how fortunate I am to be in this situation. I'm struggling to come up with a framework with which to choose either the Hamilton, Vanderbilt, or the Darrow, and I'd like the help of the community here in making a decision. The finances for each option look something like this:

Columbia (CoA less tuition): ~$23,313/year ($69,939 total)
NYU (CoA less tuition): ~$26,420/year ($79,260 total)
Michigan (CoA less tuition & stipend): ~$9,010/year ($27,030 total)

Regardless of which school I attend, I expect to be able to graduate debt free. My goal after graduating is a competitive clerkship and to spend a few years at a firm before leaving for either a government or in-house position. My pipe dream is academia but I am aware that is exceedingly unlikely.

Attending Michigan looks like it would save me at least $50,000. Although I won't take out loans for any of my options, that's still real money. However, I'm not opposed to spending it, especially since it's over a three year period. Are the comparatively better employment prospects at the pricey New York schools worth it, especially with respect to my goals (which I admit are kind of vague)?

Then there's the eternal Columbia vs. NYU debate. Hamilton fellows get to be paired with a faculty mentor and Vanderbilt scholars get to affiliate with one of NYU's many centers, but I'm having a hard time telling if these things actually mean anything or if they're just recruitment tools. I'd appreciate clarification on this point from anyone with direct knowledge. I also can't tell if either of these schools offers better clerkship or academia opportunities than the other. Feel free to make the finest of distinctions since they basically cost the same.

Thanks to anyone who can address one of the points I brought up or anything else that's relevant. I appreciate the help.


For the bolded, Columbia gives you the best chance out of the bunch and is worth the extra money over Mich. Id take the Hamilton without hesitation. I would want to know if you applied to and got packages from any of HYS. Academia is very competitive but it is a real outcome for some students at these schools. If the difference in COA is small you might consider them for the outside shot at academia, clerkship chances and government jobs. Otherwise take the Hamilton and never look back.

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Rigo
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Rigo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:48 pm

Mahogany wrote:
Rigo wrote:I'd go Hamilton.

Any specific reasons why?

You have some super competitive goals with biglaw as a fall back. I just think Columbia is worth the extra money, especially since not debt financing. You would have to be a real lemon to strike out at Columbia OCI whereas Michigan is a little so-so with employment stats lately.
You can't go WRONG with any of these choices though.
Do you have any strong living preferences or is it just about the COL now? You could probably keep COL down more, but you'd have to talk to Columbia students. Also factor in money from summers if you haven't yet. Yeah I get it will still cost more but we're not talking a crazy difference here.

Then again, I've crossed schools off my list over less than $50k, but I am debt financing and nothing was below six figures.

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Mikey
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mikey » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:53 pm

PrezRand wrote:How is Columbia cheaper than NYU. I thought the Vandy was a full-ride and the Hamilton 50%. Based on this, I would go with Columbia

Hamilton is full, butler is half

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:05 pm

T3TON wrote:For the bolded, Columbia gives you the best chance out of the bunch and is worth the extra money over Mich. Id take the Hamilton without hesitation. I would want to know if you applied to and got packages from any of HYS. Academia is very competitive but it is a real outcome for some students at these schools. If the difference in COA is small you might consider them for the outside shot at academia, clerkship chances and government jobs. Otherwise take the Hamilton and never look back.


You can assume I'm also in at one or more of HYS. No word on aid yet but planning on taking the money unless I receive a very pleasant surprise. Anyway, the HYS vs $$$ at CCNMVP is a horse that's been beaten to death on TLS already.

Mahogany
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby Mahogany » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:10 pm

Rigo wrote:
Mahogany wrote:
Rigo wrote:I'd go Hamilton.

Any specific reasons why?

You have some super competitive goals with biglaw as a fall back. I just think Columbia is worth the extra money, especially since not debt financing. You would have to be a real lemon to strike out at Columbia OCI whereas Michigan is a little so-so with employment stats lately.
You can't go WRONG with any of these choices though.
Do you have any strong living preferences or is it just about the COL now? You could probably keep COL down more, but you'd have to talk to Columbia students. Also factor in money from summers if you haven't yet. Yeah I get it will still cost more but we're not talking a crazy difference here.

Then again, I've crossed schools off my list over less than $50k, but I am debt financing and nothing was below six figures.


Okay that all makes sense, thanks. I've factored in SA money already. Otherwise, there's no way I would make it through Columbia or NYU debt free. No living preferences to speak of...well, I did say I didn't like New York but that dislike isn't strong enough to color choice of law school unless everything else is equal.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:13 am

Columbia.

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UVA2B
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby UVA2B » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:15 am

jbagelboy wrote:Columbia.


#Shocked

nyu2019maybeplease
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:56 pm

These are great options, and you're going to be ok where ever.

Pick the place you think best positions you to do well. I picked Michigan over NYU despite it being my dream school for years because, after visiting both, it became clear to me that Ann Arbor was a better learning environment for me. I haven't regretted the choice for an instant, but YRMV. If you thrive in the hustle bustle of a city, go to NYU. If you want city opportunities but a bit more campus-y feel, Columbia. If you want a campus-anchored community, come to Michigan.

Also, come to admitted students weekend!


dm1683 wrote:
Mahogany wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:Do you want to be in DC after you graduate and clerk? Personally I would take Michigan because Columbia and NYU wouldn't be worth $50k to me, but can't go wrong either way.


Possibly. I don't really like New York, although I've never lived there and it's possible I could end up learning to love it.


You don't have to have lived in NYC for you to know it's not for you (I found that out in less than a week). From my (albeit limited) experience, NYC doesn't really "grow on" people like other cities sometimes do.

That being said, Columbia and NYU for less than 100k in debt is a great deal. I disagree with the above poster about CN not being worth 50k more than Mich. I love Ann Arbor and Mich is one of my target schools but the gap in opportunities (especially for clerking and biglaw) between Mich and CN is definitely worth spending 50k on IMO (especially if you are going to graduate debt-free regardless).

EDIT: Wondering why you didn't apply to Chicago? They have great clerkship numbers (4th behind HYS I believe), and excellent placement all over the country. Chicago is IMO the "best" city in the US - great culture, diversity, food, nightlife, low COL, four seasons etc.

michlaw
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Re: Columbia (Hamilton) vs. NYU (Vanderbilt) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

Postby michlaw » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:50 pm

Columbia.

Congrats.




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