NYC Biglaw Schools

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Sploshy
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NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Sploshy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:41 pm

If I'm being honest my ambitions are probably way too high, but I can't hope but at least try to pursue "the dream". I am currently a junior in undergrad at a regional Texas school with little to no prestige or reputation in academia. My GPA at the time of applying will be around a 3.9. I have been taking timed LSAT tests and scoring in the 177 range, obviously I know that my score will probably dive when the real thing comes around. I'm planning for a 172/3.9 profile, but I am wondering how much my undergrad school comes into the mix.

I think its easier to figure out which schools to go to with the end in mind. I want to work at a Biglaw firm in NYC, and I've seen lots of mixed opinions about what schools are good for that type of outlook. Penn to me seems like I'd have a decent shot of getting in and the prospects for a NYC job are supposedly good. Is my assessment of this correct? Why do people on these forums value HYS so highly? I understand that those three schools are great, but there's only a small amount of students graduating from those schools each year. Also, I'm assuming those schools have students interested in a wide variety of jobs, so it's not like those schools fill up the majority of NYC BigLaw positions, is it?

I'm still figuring out what type of law I want to pursue, but I'm focused in on Corporate transactional law or General litigation. As far as the corporate law goes, I figure that having a close proximity to Wharton and possibly even joining the 3yr or 4yr mba/jd program would look very good on a resume and offer me some more insight into the corporate world.

Another thing that I've found very hard to figure out is how the culture of the schools are. I've read some posts about Penn being highly noncompetitive and Chicago being very competitive and then rebuttals about how Chicago isn't competitive at all. The thing that I think should be valued the most from law school is building relationships with future attorneys/clients, and to me that seems like Harvard would be the best fit, but maybe I'm wrong. What is y'all's take on this? Also how do I find out about the different environments and cultures of the top 14 law schools, because I think this may be the deciding factor for me.

somedeadman
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby somedeadman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:44 pm

You won't have any problem getting into a school which places NYC big law with those (projected) numbers.

Also I'm a 0L, so take this with a grain of salt, but school culture should be near the bottom of your list of concerns. And I've read the better a school's employment outcomes are, the less cutthroat it is.
Last edited by somedeadman on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sploshy
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Sploshy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:47 pm

I forgot to add that money isn't a major factor for me. I won a settlement at an early age due to an injury, and it is more than enough to pay for law school. I haven't really thought much about the interest rates of school loans versus investments of this capital, but nonetheless I don't want money to be a limiting factor on what I should be pursuing. Just assume I'll make the best choice as far as loans/investments go, because when the time comes I'll be methodically examining that facet as well.

edit: So then a 3.9 at a Timbuktu school isn't a detraction? I've had several advisors at my school tell me that our school looks bad to law schools even if the gpa is really good.

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jjcorvino
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby jjcorvino » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:51 pm

Sploshy wrote:I forgot to add that money isn't a major factor for me. I won a settlement at an early age due to an injury, and it is more than enough to pay for law school. I haven't really thought much about the interest rates of school loans versus investments of this capital, but nonetheless I don't want money to be a limiting factor on what I should be pursuing. Just assume I'll make the best choice as far as loans/investments go, because when the time comes I'll be methodically examining that facet as well.

edit: So then a 3.9 at a Timbuktu school isn't a detraction? I've had several advisors at my school tell me that our school looks bad to law schools even if the gpa is really good.


With a 3.9 you coudl have studied underwater basket weaving and you will be fine. The GPA matters a whole lot more than the school.

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guybourdin
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby guybourdin » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:02 pm

Sploshy wrote:I've had several advisors at my school tell me that our school looks bad to law schools even if the gpa is really good.


Do you go to a for profit school? a 3.9 from the University of Phoenix will probably look bad. a 3.9 from any real school - from Princeton to West Central Texas Community College - puts you in a good position to get into any school in the country (with the right lsat, personal statement, etc).

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Slytherpuff
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Slytherpuff » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:05 pm

It's very hard to not get NYC big law from Columbia and NYU, and pretty much all the T14 will give you an excellent shot. Just focus on getting a good LSAT score for now. Your undergrad institution will not matter at all if you have a 172/3.9.

Sploshy
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Sploshy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm

I go to UNT. It is close to home and allowed me to save money to be able to use to go to law school.

somedeadman
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby somedeadman » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:10 pm

Sploshy wrote:I go to UNT. It is close to home and allowed me to save money to be able to use to go to law school.

Stone Cold Steve Austin played football there, so you're in excellent company

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Slytherpuff
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Slytherpuff » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:22 pm

You can take a peek in the Legal Employment forum and check out some of the summer class distributions, if you want to see examples of how many people from each school make up summer associates classes. Here is this year's. I'd recommend Columbia, NYU, and Harvard if you want NYC big law to be a sure thing.

existentialcrisis
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby existentialcrisis » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:22 pm

Slytherpuff wrote:You can take a peek in the Legal Employment forum and check out some of the summer class distributions, if you want to see examples of how many people from each school make up summer associates classes. Here is this year's. I'd recommend Columbia, NYU, and Harvard if you want NYC big law to be a sure thing.


I guess you aren't really wrong, but I'm not sure this is the best advice. NYC big law is going to be the most attainable outcome from any T14, so I'd recommend picking one that gives you $$$$. OP will get large scholly offers in the lower T14. If CLS or NYU throw you a bunch of money, then go for it, but otherwise I'd follow the money.

Also, I would ALWAYS recommend that people take time off between undergrad and law school, even if it means taking some menial office job for a year or two.

T3TON
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby T3TON » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:57 pm

As others have mentioned you should have no trouble getting into elite schools with those stats.

For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order) because they are the schools with the most per capita placement power in the city. Of course most grads of these schools end up working alongside other t14 grads; the difference is that you can do worse relative to your classmates and still land the same job. Think of it as buying an insurance policy against bombing your classes. The cache of these degrees pays off incrementally over the course of your career. If you intend to stay in big law they might be a worthwhile investment.

Generic New York corporate law tends to not be the most difficult area to break into. However some firms are still picky. For example if you have any interest in working at Wachtell it isnt advisable to go to a lower ranked school than Penn (and youll have an easier time landing a spot from CCN and an easier time still from HYS).

Dont overstate the differences in school culture. Factors like size and the way grading is done (one area where HYS differs from some other schools) will have some effect but most of the students youll meet and the opportunities you have will be comparable.

JD/MBAs tend to be more useful to MBA students than to JD students. Some law firms consider you a flight risk after picking one up. Only do one if you are sure you want to do corporate (or if you want to do business instead, but at that point why do law school?), and even then the costs may exceed the benefits.

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guybourdin
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby guybourdin » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:17 pm

T3TON wrote:For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)



No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.

T3TON
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby T3TON » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:46 pm

guybourdin wrote:
T3TON wrote:For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)



No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.


This is incorrect. There's a difference between placement power and placement power/price. CCNP with good scholarship money is often recommended over debt-financed HYS but here OP says money is not the primary concern. When it comes to placement power Yale is advantaged over all of the schools you mentioned. In many cases it is heavily advantaged.

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star fox
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby star fox » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:49 pm

T3TON wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
T3TON wrote:For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)



No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.


This is incorrect. There's a difference between placement power and placement power/price. CCNP with good scholarship money is often recommended over debt-financed HYS but here OP says money is not the primary concern. When it comes to placement power Yale is advantaged over all of the schools you mentioned. In many cases it is heavily advantaged.

Even if the OP is sitting on a few million dollars, COA should still play a role. If you can get the same result for cheaper, why not?

T3TON
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby T3TON » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:18 pm

star fox wrote: Even if the OP is sitting on a few million dollars, COA should still play a role. If you can get the same result for cheaper, why not?


The point is that the EV of these schools is not the same- all else being held equal Yale's is higher. When it comes time to make a decision OP will have to balance the difference in outcomes against the difference in costs. But OP hasnt even sat for the LSAT yet and debating money would be pure speculation. OP asked which schools would best help him/her "live the dream." The answer to that is YSHCCNP.

The benefits of an HYS degree dont end at graduation. If someone already has tons and tons of money the decision to pay an extra 50-100k for a career's worth of incremental advantage can be a logical one. The math looks a lot different when the difference in cost is large and the bill is being debt-financed.

existentialcrisis
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby existentialcrisis » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:01 pm

T3TON wrote:
star fox wrote: Even if the OP is sitting on a few million dollars, COA should still play a role. If you can get the same result for cheaper, why not?


The point is that the EV of these schools is not the same- all else being held equal Yale's is higher. When it comes time to make a decision OP will have to balance the difference in outcomes against the difference in costs. But OP hasnt even sat for the LSAT yet and debating money would be pure speculation. OP asked which schools would best help him/her "live the dream." The answer to that is YSHCCNP.

.


Lol at "living the dream" in NYC big law. OP I hope you've taken a long look at what big law entails (both in terms of duration and all) before deciding it's your dream.

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Mikey
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Mikey » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Slytherpuff wrote:You can take a peek in the Legal Employment forum and check out some of the summer class distributions, if you want to see examples of how many people from each school make up summer associates classes. Here is this year's. I'd recommend Columbia, NYU, and Harvard if you want NYC big law to be a sure thing.

Didn't know about that thread. Pretty interesting, thanks!

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Nebby
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby Nebby » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:35 am

Get an LSAT score before getting your hopes up

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kalvano
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby kalvano » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:28 pm

Why do you want to work in NYC Biglaw? Do you just want out of Texas?

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KissMyAxe
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby KissMyAxe » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:39 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
Slytherpuff wrote:You can take a peek in the Legal Employment forum and check out some of the summer class distributions, if you want to see examples of how many people from each school make up summer associates classes. Here is this year's. I'd recommend Columbia, NYU, and Harvard if you want NYC big law to be a sure thing.


I guess you aren't really wrong, but I'm not sure this is the best advice. NYC big law is going to be the most attainable outcome from any T14, so I'd recommend picking one that gives you $$$$. OP will get large scholly offers in the lower T14. If CLS or NYU throw you a bunch of money, then go for it, but otherwise I'd follow the money.

Also, I would ALWAYS recommend that people take time off between undergrad and law school, even if it means taking some menial office job for a year or two.


Agreed, this is all around poor advice. If money were truly no object (we have some billionaires' children here), then not including YLS or SLS, where they'd be competitive, is crazy, since they will get you your choice of firms with much less effort (excluding WLRK). However, OP does not sound like they're loaded, but that they have savings from a suit that will be exhausted for law school. If that's the case, then it makes sense to save as much of that as possible. Cornell and other lower T13 schools will put you in great position for Biglaw and will probably offer more money if OP gets that 3.9/172 they're predicting. In that case, I'd say lower T13 are the best outcome for OP for their goals. Of course, if OP knocks the LSAT out of the park and gets a Ruby/Hamilton/Vanderbilt (whatever other ones they have), then absolutely CCN are perfect.

guybourdin wrote:No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.

This is really wrong. I agree that price is often the best determination if you're gunning for only Biglaw (as I said above). But Chicago and not YLS? What is your reasoning? You literally do not have to step foot in a classroom your first year at YLS and still get a NYC V10 firm. It far outperforms every other school on that front, for those students that want to work in NYC Biglaw (which is admittedly not most students' goal). It is also usually cheaper COA than HLS, both because their need-based aid formula is more generous and because COL is slightly lower in New Haven vs. Cambridge. I've been on this forum for years, and I've never heard someone say YLS is terrible for NYC BL, so I'm curious where you got this.

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guybourdin
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby guybourdin » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:43 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:
guybourdin wrote:No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.

This is really wrong. I agree that price is often the best determination if you're gunning for only Biglaw (as I said above). But Chicago and not YLS? What is your reasoning? You literally do not have to step foot in a classroom your first year at YLS and still get a NYC V10 firm. It far outperforms every other school on that front, for those students that want to work in NYC Biglaw (which is admittedly not most students' goal). It is also usually cheaper COA than HLS, both because their need-based aid formula is more generous and because COL is slightly lower in New Haven vs. Cambridge. I've been on this forum for years, and I've never heard someone say YLS is terrible for NYC BL, so I'm curious where you got this.


I don't really disagree with anything you've said but think you've taken everything I said totally out of context and context seems important here. You didn't quote what I was responding to, which was

"For New York big law people generally recommend Y (first, before any other school)".

I don't believe that Y is this board's #1 NYC BL recommendation, do you?

I don't know why you think I said YLS is terrible for NYC BL, because I clearly didn't imply that or even give my own recommendations to OP (never addressed OP). I simply summarized what I believe to be the general recommendations I see in response to someone else summarizing what they believe the general recommendations to be (and, obviously, my believing them to be incorrect) for NYC BL.

I would ask: does YLS really FAR outperform every other school with NYC BL or does it far outperform every other school with respect to the most prestigious NYC BL? Because OP didn't mention V-whateverthefuck, they just mentioned NYC BL.

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KissMyAxe
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby KissMyAxe » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:13 pm

guybourdin wrote:
KissMyAxe wrote:
guybourdin wrote:No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.

This is really wrong. I agree that price is often the best determination if you're gunning for only Biglaw (as I said above). But Chicago and not YLS? What is your reasoning? You literally do not have to step foot in a classroom your first year at YLS and still get a NYC V10 firm. It far outperforms every other school on that front, for those students that want to work in NYC Biglaw (which is admittedly not most students' goal). It is also usually cheaper COA than HLS, both because their need-based aid formula is more generous and because COL is slightly lower in New Haven vs. Cambridge. I've been on this forum for years, and I've never heard someone say YLS is terrible for NYC BL, so I'm curious where you got this.


I don't really disagree with anything you've said but think you've taken everything I said totally out of context and context seems important here. You didn't quote what I was responding to, which was

"For New York big law people generally recommend Y (first, before any other school)".

I don't believe that Y is this board's #1 NYC BL recommendation, do you?

I don't know why you think I said YLS is terrible for NYC BL, because I clearly didn't imply that or even give my own recommendations to OP (never addressed OP). I simply summarized what I believe to be the general recommendations I see in response to someone else summarizing what they believe the general recommendations to be (and, obviously, my believing them to be incorrect) for NYC BL.

I would ask: does YLS really FAR outperform every other school with NYC BL or does it far outperform every other school with respect to the most prestigious NYC BL? Because OP didn't mention V-whateverthefuck, they just mentioned NYC BL.

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw). You responded by saying that was incorrect, removing Yale and Stanford, and adding CCNP. I asked why you decided to remove YLS, but keep Harvard there. That struck me as odd, especially since you used the qualifier "cheapest," meaning we're already considering the full-rides.

No, YLS is not typically the first recommendation for New York Big Law, because typically on this board, an admit to YLS is deciding between YLS at sticker vs a Hamilton or other full-ride. In those cases, where the student only wants biglaw and nothing more, then the money should usually prevail (though YLS's max need based aid ends up having a similar COA to a Hamilton). But Harvard isn't the first recommendation either. The default advice for Biglaw is CCN for $$ or the rest of the T13 for $$$. I don't think Vault rankings mean a thing, but I was illustrating the fact that Biglaw is guaranteed from YLS for those who really are Biglaw or bust, regardless of your school performance. At the same time, we do occasionally see HLS, CLS, and NYU grads on here talking about striking out or in the Vale of Tears. I've never seen a YLS (or SLS) student here. Now, Biglaw is very close to guaranteed at the rest of these schools, so money should still be the main arbiter in the matter. But considering YLS is also usually cheaper than HLS, I was just curious about its exclusion.

But I do think we mostly agree, I was just curious of your reasoning for your list. I think we can simplify this by saying that if you want close to guaranteed NYC Biglaw and nothing else, you should go to which of YSHCCNP is cheapest (though some marginal price difference is understandable (I get someone paying $20,000 more total COA for Columbia instead of NYU or HLS instead of Columbia).

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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:33 pm

Make sure you know what NYC big law actually is before you starting calling it (and pursuing it as) your dream

T3TON
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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby T3TON » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:27 pm

KissMyAxe wrote:I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw). You responded by saying that was incorrect, removing Yale and Stanford, and adding CCNP. I asked why you decided to remove YLS, but keep Harvard there. That struck me as odd, especially since you used the qualifier "cheapest," meaning we're already considering the full-rides.

No, YLS is not typically the first recommendation for New York Big Law, because typically on this board, an admit to YLS is deciding between YLS at sticker vs a Hamilton or other full-ride. In those cases, where the student only wants biglaw and nothing more, then the money should usually prevail (though YLS's max need based aid ends up having a similar COA to a Hamilton). But Harvard isn't the first recommendation either. The default advice for Biglaw is CCN for $$ or the rest of the T13 for $$$. I don't think Vault rankings mean a thing, but I was illustrating the fact that Biglaw is guaranteed from YLS for those who really are Biglaw or bust, regardless of your school performance. At the same time, we do occasionally see HLS, CLS, and NYU grads on here talking about striking out or in the Vale of Tears. I've never seen a YLS (or SLS) student here. Now, Biglaw is very close to guaranteed at the rest of these schools, so money should still be the main arbiter in the matter. But considering YLS is also usually cheaper than HLS, I was just curious about its exclusion.

But I do think we mostly agree, I was just curious of your reasoning for your list. I think we can simplify this by saying that if you want close to guaranteed NYC Biglaw and nothing else, you should go to which of YSHCCNP is cheapest (though some marginal price difference is understandable (I get someone paying $20,000 more total COA for Columbia instead of NYU or HLS instead of Columbia).


I think we are mostly in agreement about cost being the major factor. I suspect Im more tolerant of differences in total debt but as you mentioned max aid at HYS can be quite good. My point was that without scholarship offers this discussion is pure speculation.

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

I want to add that while YS grads do need to put in substantial effort to get Wachtell the firm seems to hire deeper into their classes. It is nothing near a cakewalk but if I someone was wachtell-or-bust paying a bit more for one of these schools isnt totally crazy.

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Re: NYC Biglaw Schools

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:32 pm

Someone who is Wachtell or bust must just be a joy to hang out with




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