NYC Biglaw Schools Forum

[Npret]

Someone who is Wachtell or bust must just be a joy to hang out with

They just see the salary and the deals. It's appalling not cutely naive.

I'm not invested in OP though. If OP wants to spend money from a childhood injury to buy something they see as shiny, go for it. That it could be done for less or that it's the easiest biglaw job to get is not relevant and OP won't listen.

[Nebby]

No, people recommend the cheapest of H, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago (can quibble over placement of H/C and P/C). If you are 100% committed to NYC BL I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone on this board recommending Y.

This is really wrong. I agree that price is often the best determination if you're gunning for only Biglaw (as I said above). But Chicago and not YLS? What is your reasoning? You literally do not have to step foot in a classroom your first year at YLS and still get a NYC V10 firm. It far outperforms every other school on that front, for those students that want to work in NYC Biglaw (which is admittedly not most students' goal). It is also usually cheaper COA than HLS, both because their need-based aid formula is more generous and because COL is slightly lower in New Haven vs. Cambridge. I've been on this forum for years, and I've never heard someone say YLS is terrible for NYC BL, so I'm curious where you got this.

I don't really disagree with anything you've said but think you've taken everything I said totally out of context and context seems important here. You didn't quote what I was responding to, which was

"For New York big law people generally recommend Y (first, before any other school)".

I don't believe that Y is this board's #1 NYC BL recommendation, do you?

I don't know why you think I said YLS is terrible for NYC BL, because I clearly didn't imply that or even give my own recommendations to OP (never addressed OP). I simply summarized what I believe to be the general recommendations I see in response to someone else summarizing what they believe the general recommendations to be (and, obviously, my believing them to be incorrect) for NYC BL.

I would ask: does YLS really FAR outperform every other school with NYC BL or does it far outperform every other school with respect to the most prestigious NYC BL? Because OP didn't mention V-whateverthefuck, they just mentioned NYC BL.

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw). You responded by saying that was incorrect, removing Yale and Stanford, and adding CCNP. I asked why you decided to remove YLS, but keep Harvard there. That struck me as odd, especially since you used the qualifier "cheapest," meaning we're already considering the full-rides.

No, YLS is not typically the first recommendation for New York Big Law, because typically on this board, an admit to YLS is deciding between YLS at sticker vs a Hamilton or other full-ride. In those cases, where the student only wants biglaw and nothing more, then the money should usually prevail (though YLS's max need based aid ends up having a similar COA to a Hamilton). But Harvard isn't the first recommendation either. The default advice for Biglaw is CCN for $$ or the rest of the T13 for $$$. I don't think Vault rankings mean a thing, but I was illustrating the fact that Biglaw is guaranteed from YLS for those who really are Biglaw or bust, regardless of your school performance. At the same time, we do occasionally see HLS, CLS, and NYU grads on here talking about striking out or in the Vale of Tears. I've never seen a YLS (or SLS) student here. Now, Biglaw is very close to guaranteed at the rest of these schools, so money should still be the main arbiter in the matter. But considering YLS is also usually cheaper than HLS, I was just curious about its exclusion.

But I do think we mostly agree, I was just curious of your reasoning for your list. I think we can simplify this by saying that if you want close to guaranteed NYC Biglaw and nothing else, you should go to which of YSHCCNP is cheapest (though some marginal price difference is understandable (I get someone paying $20,000 more total COA for Columbia instead of NYU or HLS instead of Columbia).

Glad you're here to defend the integrity of YLS

[guynourmin]

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw).

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

[T3TON]

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw).

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

Either that, or he thinks the default should be lower t14 with money, or he disagrees with the internal ordering of HYS for New York. Cant tell which. Also, what is with the Yale and Wachtell hate ITT?

[trebekismyhero]

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw).

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

Either that, or he thinks the default should be lower t14 with money, or he disagrees with the internal ordering of HYS for New York. Cant tell which. Also, what is with the Yale and Wachtell hate ITT?

I think they definitely mean because DC is a much harder market to crack than NYC. And no one is hating on Yale at least as I have seen. Or wachtell, it is probably the best firm in the country. They are more hating on anyone that would be wachtell or bust. Because that is an insane thing to be

[existentialcrisis]

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw).

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

Either that, or he thinks the default should be lower t14 with money, or he disagrees with the internal ordering of HYS for New York. Cant tell which. Also, what is with the Yale and Wachtell hate ITT?

NYC biglaw is the EASIEST outcome from ANY T-14 (maybe barring smaller markets with air tight ties), so yes, T14 with money should probably be the default. Obviously if you Get into Chicago or NYU with $$$ that's even better.

I don't think anyone's hating on Yale at all in general, and fucking LOL at the idea of going into any school, YLS included, as Wachtell or bust.

[Npret]

I don't think it's out of context. That wasn't the quote first of all. It was "For New York big law people generally recommend YSH (in that order)." That opinion is not uncommon, though I disagree (and think it's more apt for DC Biglaw).

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

Either that, or he thinks the default should be lower t14 with money, or he disagrees with the internal ordering of HYS for New York. Cant tell which. Also, what is with the Yale and Wachtell hate ITT?

I think that poster meant that you can easily get NYc biglaw from other schools as it is the largest and easiest market. You definitely don't need HYS to get NYC biglaw.
This forum doesn't recommend it even at least not that I can remember.

No one hates Yale or Wachtell but it's an odd and unlikely goal. There is a reason why Wachtell pays so much.

[KissMyAxe]

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded?

probably that DC is much harder to get than NYC. Median Penn student is going to have a MUCH harder time getting DC BL than their Y counterpart.

Either that, or he thinks the default should be lower t14 with money, or he disagrees with the internal ordering of HYS for New York. Cant tell which. Also, what is with the Yale and Wachtell hate ITT?

I think that poster meant that you can easily get NYc biglaw from other schools as it is the largest and easiest market. You definitely don't need HYS to get NYC biglaw.
This forum doesn't recommend it even at least not that I can remember.

No one hates Yale or Wachtell but it's an odd and unlikely goal. There is a reason why Wachtell pays so much.

Wow, wasn't expecting that comment to start a discussion on my original intent. But they're right. I meant that NYC is the biggest legal market in the country (maybe the world? IDK) and DC, while still major, is much smaller. That makes it more competitive. It's still attainable from all the T13, but it's much more difficult to get compared to a standard NYC biglaw firm. Median at YLS still has a chance of striking out there. You do not need HYS to get biglaw in New York. We usually see something like HYS with very little to no need-based aid vs. a full ride at CCN. If CCN are extremely good at putting people where you want to work, why would you pay the extra expense of HYS for no appreciable benefit? You can take the money and know you have a great chance of getting it. That's why I typically disagree with the side saying take Harvard sticker over a Hamilton even if you only want biglaw in NYC because of it's greater prestige.

However, if a poster came on here and said, "I want to work in DC, and have no desire to work in New York." We're having a different discussion. It might very well be that money further down the ranking is still the right answer, but HYS begin to really make a case for themselves, because these other schools suddenly are not in their element, and because a lot of the best DC firms desire/require clerkships, where CCN are not even playing the same game as HYS (at least at YLS, all P's can easily land you a COA position somewhere, but all the students chase prestige and are targeting only the 2nd, 9th, or DC circuit. I'd imagine SLS and HLS are similar).

[Nebby]

Don't most YLS grads become professors because they can't practice?

[dm1683]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

If NYC or bust, Cornell would be a great choice. They would give you a full ride or close to it and as long as you don't royally screw up grades-wise you'd be in at an NYC firm. And even if you were in the 30 percent or so that failed to get biglaw, the lack of debt would make it tolerable.

[T3TON]

Wow, wasn't expecting that comment to start a discussion on my original intent. But they're right. I meant that NYC is the biggest legal market in the country (maybe the world? IDK) and DC, while still major, is much smaller. That makes it more competitive. It's still attainable from all the T13, but it's much more difficult to get compared to a standard NYC biglaw firm. Median at YLS still has a chance of striking out there. You do not need HYS to get biglaw in New York. We usually see something like HYS with very little to no need-based aid vs. a full ride at CCN. If CCN are extremely good at putting people where you want to work, why would you pay the extra expense of HYS for no appreciable benefit? You can take the money and know you have a great chance of getting it. That's why I typically disagree with the side saying take Harvard sticker over a Hamilton even if you only want biglaw in NYC because of it's greater prestige.

However, if a poster came on here and said, "I want to work in DC, and have no desire to work in New York." We're having a different discussion. It might very well be that money further down the ranking is still the right answer, but HYS begin to really make a case for themselves, because these other schools suddenly are not in their element, and because a lot of the best DC firms desire/require clerkships, where CCN are not even playing the same game as HYS (at least at YLS, all P's can easily land you a COA position somewhere, but all the students chase prestige and are targeting only the 2nd, 9th, or DC circuit. I'd imagine SLS and HLS are similar).

To be clear I agree with all of this. HYS at sticker over a Hamilton is not defensible for someone who only wants NY big law. Its when the comparison is HYS at discount vs a Butler that this becomes more of a tossup. We wont know which of those situations we are dealing with until after OP takes the LSAT and gets offers.

[KissMyAxe]

Don't most YLS grads become professors because they can't practice?

Correct. We don't concern ourselves with such mundane things as learning the law. Classes are about the important things, economic efficiency and normative behaviors, with ample references to Kant and Locke thrown in.

[Nebby]

Don't most YLS grads become professors because they can't practice?

Correct. We don't concern ourselves with such mundane things as learning the law. Classes are about the important things, economic efficiency and normative behaviors, with ample references to Kant and Locke thrown in.

Checks out

[kalvano]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

Except for living in Houston.

[UVA2B]

Don't most YLS grads become professors because they can't practice?

Correct. We don't concern ourselves with such mundane things as learning the law. Classes are about the important things, economic efficiency and normative behaviors, with ample references to Kant and Locke thrown in.

I irrationally enjoyed this. Sarcastic self-deprecating Yalie is refreshing. Or entirely condescending. Either way, spot-on.

[dm1683]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

Except for living in Houston.

I know, because everywhere outside of NYC and LA is just a barren wasteland...

[UVA2B]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

Except for living in Houston.

I know, because everywhere outside of NYC and LA is just a barren wasteland...

Missing Texan jokes...

[BigZuck]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

Except for living in Houston.

I know, because everywhere outside of NYC and LA is just a barren wasteland...

Kalvano lives in objectively the worst city in the country and is making a funny, he's no coastal elitist

Jokes yo!

[kalvano]

Kalvano lives in objectively the worst city in the country

I don't live in Houston.

But in all seriousness, I am curious why NYC Biglaw is the goal for OP. If he just wants out of Texas, fine, I get it, but financially, it's far better to go to a good school and then come back to Texas for Biglaw.

[emmbeegee]

I go to UNT. It is close to home and allowed me to save money to be able to use to go to law school.

Stone Cold Steve Austin played football there, so you're in excellent company

I believe you just answered the age old "what is a really good soft" question.

[dm1683]

Kalvano lives in objectively the worst city in the country

I don't live in Houston.

But in all seriousness, I am curious why NYC Biglaw is the goal for OP. If he just wants out of Texas, fine, I get it, but financially, it's far better to go to a good school and then come back to Texas for Biglaw.

Exactly my point, and articulated far more eloquently.

You really should gtfo of Cleveland tho.

[kalvano]

Kalvano lives in objectively the worst city in the country

I don't live in Houston.

But in all seriousness, I am curious why NYC Biglaw is the goal for OP. If he just wants out of Texas, fine, I get it, but financially, it's far better to go to a good school and then come back to Texas for Biglaw.

Exactly my point, and articulated far more eloquently.

You really should gtfo of Cleveland tho.

Who the hell is in Cleveland?

[bretby]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

If NYC or bust, Cornell would be a great choice. They would give you a full ride or close to it and as long as you don't royally screw up grades-wise you'd be in at an NYC firm. And even if you were in the 30 percent or so that failed to get biglaw, the lack of debt would make it tolerable.

I don't get the YHS answer at all, given the article below, and Cornell is even less defensible.

http://www.vault.com/blog/vaults-law-bl ... er_ID=7778

[dm1683]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

If NYC or bust, Cornell would be a great choice. They would give you a full ride or close to it and as long as you don't royally screw up grades-wise you'd be in at an NYC firm. And even if you were in the 30 percent or so that failed to get biglaw, the lack of debt would make it tolerable.

I don't get the YHS answer at all, given the article below, and Cornell is even less defensible.

http://www.vault.com/blog/vaults-law-bl ... er_ID=7778

Per LST, Cornell has a 62.8% large firm score. Add in clerkships (9%) who could have gotten biglaw if they wanted, and that's a 71.8% chance of landing the desired outcome. If you're going on a full ride, as OP probably would be, that's an amazing, spectacular deal, as the President would say.

[T3TON]

Don't know why OP wouldn't just take the full ride at UT/$$$ at UVA/Duke and work in Texas biglaw. If one wants to be rich, 190k in Houston with no student loans is probably one of the best possible outcomes.

If NYC or bust, Cornell would be a great choice. They would give you a full ride or close to it and as long as you don't royally screw up grades-wise you'd be in at an NYC firm. And even if you were in the 30 percent or so that failed to get biglaw, the lack of debt would make it tolerable.

I don't get the YHS answer at all, given the article below, and Cornell is even less defensible.

http://www.vault.com/blog/vaults-law-bl ... er_ID=7778

Your article answers that:
"Yale doesn’t make the top ten not because BigLaw firms don’t want to hire Yale grads, but because they often make careers outside of BigLaw (for instance in academia)."

That reduces supply and increases demand for Yale grads in big law.

Again this discussion presumes the costs are equal between schools. Cornell was recommended because it often gives good scholarships to high-scoring applicants and still has a respectable big law placement rate in New York.