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DaOneandOnly

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Postby DaOneandOnly » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:45 pm

Answered, thanks!
Last edited by DaOneandOnly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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trebekismyhero

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby trebekismyhero » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:01 pm

None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC

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Postby DaOneandOnly » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:50 pm

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Dcc617

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby Dcc617 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:53 pm

DaOneandOnly wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC


Appreciate the input!


I don't think those schools match your goals.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby DaOneandOnly » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:12 pm

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Last edited by DaOneandOnly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby DaOneandOnly » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:18 pm

Additional question: Is it possible to/what are the general repercussions for committing to a school for this fall and taking the LSAT this coming June? In the case that I perform well on the June LSAT can I choose to revoke my decision to attend and apply to other schools next cycle?

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby trebekismyhero » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:27 pm

DaOneandOnly wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC


Appreciate the input!


I don't think those schools match your goals.


Could you provide a few that would match my goals? Thanks!


Harvard, Stanford, and Yale would be best for getting international work.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby trebekismyhero » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm

DaOneandOnly wrote:Additional question: Is it possible to/what are the general repercussions for committing to a school for this fall and taking the LSAT this coming June? In the case that I perform well on the June LSAT can I choose to revoke my decision to attend and apply to other schools next cycle?


Absolutely you can withdraw, you would just lose your deposit. You should definitely retake in June and see if you can get a better score.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby chicagoburger » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:05 pm

In your situation, school name really doesn't matter if it's not HYS.
And trust me, it doesn't look good in her parents' eyes especially if you will waste another year on a test score.
Go for UC Hastings and don't look back.
Long distance is a problem. UCH makes it possible for you two to visit each other.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby tinyvessels » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:34 pm

Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here, but let me try to address the main aspects. I usually roll my eyes at the 'retake' crowd on here, but considering your GPA and career goals, a retake and applying early next cycle to your target t20 or regional schools to maximize scholarship offers would be best. It seems like you have a fairly stable/well paying job, where a taking another year to apply won't be that damaging, and may just help you save even more money for law school later on.In terms of international law, you really should do some in depth research on the programs you are looking at and job placement if that is for sure what you want to do.

You also said that you wanted to live/work in an area with at least somewhat of a Korean/Korean American population for your SO to be comfortable, right? LA/OC and the Bay Area, if you're looking at CA schools, would fit that bill just right. It's kind of difficult to say for this, since the schools you have listed here are somewhat all over the map, so you may want to do your own research on the Korean-American population in the communities where your desired law schools are located in.

However, if you absolutely need to start law school soon because of your personal circumstances I would take the full tuition at UIUC and never look back, especially since you stated you are fairly debt averse.

Also a few questions 1. Are you currently living/working in Korea or SoCal? Did you apply to the top regionals here like UCLA, USC,etc. 2. Also when you say you took the LSAT four times, do you mean you officially? As in four reported scores, so a retake would mean five scores reported to law schools?
3. You say you are most interested in international law, with a potential focus on working in Korea, but are also open to local law in the States...which are very far removed goals to have lol...In one case, going to as top ranked of a law school will matter, in the other case, going to a strong regional can do the job if need be, so you have a lot of options to look at.

Also, congrats on your engagement!

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby himanhi » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:24 pm

you need to retake and try to catch ucla/usc or t-14 and try to get la/sf/nyc bl. wouldnt go to hastings if they paid me, and asu and wake forest dont make sense for international law or working in korea. kim and chang might hire you from a place like uiuc, but starting in korea without us bl experience is a bad career choice. and if you don't catch bl from uiuc you might get stranded in the midwest. there are koreans in chicago, but nothing like ca or ny (or even atlanta). and specs with koreans . . . i don't know what your fiance's parents are like, but you should be considering this esp since your fiance has been successful in her field. ive seen good relationships fall apart bc of this

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby Rigo » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:17 am

You described your current career as rewarding. I wouldn't ditch it for any if these options. They won't help you achieve your goals whatsoever.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby UVA2B » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:30 am

Rigo wrote:You described your current career as rewarding. I wouldn't ditch it for any if these options. They won't help you achieve your goals whatsoever.


Agreed, in that you haven't spelled out a career path goal that would be better served by a JD.

Talking NGOs and Biglaw in the same sentence can be a bit disjointed, bc there can be overlap, but that's by no means a normal career path.

You probably need to figure out what orgs., gov. agencies, or type of international work (international business-->NGO is largely not a thing) interest you, and you'll have to pursue them HARD if you decide to this route.

Unfortunately you're already fighting an uphill battle, and none of your options give you a leg up in that battle, so you're fighting from behind.

I know this is the lazy answer, but if you want to get into international NGO stuff, every little bit counts. None of your current options give you a "realistic" chance of that outcome (you might be able to get it, but the bet is pretty risky).

Your goals for a JD need some fleshing out before you make the best financial decision.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby BigZuck » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:33 am

Not sure what "local law" is (other than maybe the opposite of BL law? Unclear at this point) and you might have jumped the shark with the K-Pop thing but if real my answer is:

Don't quit your day job.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:07 am

trebekismyhero wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC


Appreciate the input!


I don't think those schools match your goals.


Could you provide a few that would match my goals? Thanks!


Harvard, Stanford, and Yale would be best for getting international work.


OP is not getting into any of these schools with his GPA, regardless of what LSAT score OP receives in the coming months, so that's not particularly useful advice. Also, it just perpetuates a circlejerk. Yep, your chances are higher with a HYS degree, but there are plenty of international lawyers without one.

As for OP, I wouldn't stay out a cycle to retake. You've clearly demonstrated a ceiling with your LSAT if you've put in honest effort and can only get a 161 after 4 takes. I would recommend that you either attend UIUC or forego the idea of law school until your wife finishes your career. You're unlikely to get a job in the law that lets you have any of the outcomes you described. If you can get to a point in your life when both you and your wife are ready to live in the states full-time, then I think you should consider law school at that point, because law, for the most part, is going to require you to reside in a single US city without much time to travel.

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Postby champloo » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:23 am

Just some random information.

Northern Virginia area probably has more Koreans than the nyc/nj area. Georgetown/uva should also be on your list if youre gonna retake. I guess gw is also a probability with a decent scholarship. Getting screwed on games is a good reason to retake fwiw (is Jeff still teaching in Korea? If he is and youre open to work in korea for a year you should think about taking his class). As for bl firms in Korea (both local and global), if you can do summer internships there it will help with getting hired even if you go to non t14s. How's your Korean? Foreign lawyers do lots of translation work as juniors so it would help you if you could translate. Don't personally know any non-bilingual lawyers working as juniors at Korean firms. Know lots of bilingual juniors though and they tell me its uncommon to find non-bilingual juniors.

Some areas with concentrated Korean populations in the us: la, nova, nyc/nj, atlanta, chicago.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby T3TON » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:46 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC


Appreciate the input!


I don't think those schools match your goals.


Could you provide a few that would match my goals? Thanks!


Harvard, Stanford, and Yale would be best for getting international work.


OP is not getting into any of these schools with his GPA, regardless of what LSAT score OP receives in the coming months, so that's not particularly useful advice. Also, it just perpetuates a circlejerk. Yep, your chances are higher with a HYS degree, but there are plenty of international lawyers without one.

As for OP, I wouldn't stay out a cycle to retake. You've clearly demonstrated a ceiling with your LSAT if you've put in honest effort and can only get a 161 after 4 takes. I would recommend that you either attend UIUC or forego the idea of law school until your wife finishes your career. You're unlikely to get a job in the law that lets you have any of the outcomes you described. If you can get to a point in your life when both you and your wife are ready to live in the states full-time, then I think you should consider law school at that point, because law, for the most part, is going to require you to reside in a single US city without much time to travel.


No, OP said he PTed between 163 and 172. That's a big difference, and a few more points will open up options much better than those now on the table. Obviously HYS provides the best shot international opportunities but that doesnt mean other schools cant provide better outcomes.

OP here is what you need to do:
1) Ask if you even want or need law school (as others have mentioned). I don't know enough about your life to answer this for you.
2) If you do want or need law school, retake until you can get a workable price at a T14 or strong regional with a good biglaw %. Youre not as far away as you might think.
3) Get a biglaw job at a firm in a major city (NY, SF, etcetera) with international offices. This does three things for you. First it gives you a well-paying job in an area with a Korean population in case your fiance moves to you. Second it gives you a chance to work on international business law, which is the most realistic way you (or anyone for that matter) will get to work on international projects. Third, if you become fluent in Korean, you may have an opportunity to spend a stint (or even a longer period) in Seoul. Plenty of firms have Seoul offices (Cleary, Ropes & Gray, Simpson Thatcher...)

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby DaOneandOnly » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:15 am

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Last edited by DaOneandOnly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:09 pm

T3TON wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:
DaOneandOnly wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:None of these schools are good for international work. I do know that the University of Illinois is highly regarded in Asia, but I don't know if that would carry over to the law school. I think your best move would be retake and not go to law school right now. If you were PTing around 170 you should retake.

If you're dead set on going now and are debt averse then I guess UIUC


Appreciate the input!


I don't think those schools match your goals.


Could you provide a few that would match my goals? Thanks!


Harvard, Stanford, and Yale would be best for getting international work.


OP is not getting into any of these schools with his GPA, regardless of what LSAT score OP receives in the coming months, so that's not particularly useful advice. Also, it just perpetuates a circlejerk. Yep, your chances are higher with a HYS degree, but there are plenty of international lawyers without one.

As for OP, I wouldn't stay out a cycle to retake. You've clearly demonstrated a ceiling with your LSAT if you've put in honest effort and can only get a 161 after 4 takes. I would recommend that you either attend UIUC or forego the idea of law school until your wife finishes your career. You're unlikely to get a job in the law that lets you have any of the outcomes you described. If you can get to a point in your life when both you and your wife are ready to live in the states full-time, then I think you should consider law school at that point, because law, for the most part, is going to require you to reside in a single US city without much time to travel.


No, OP said he PTed between 163 and 172. That's a big difference, and a few more points will open up options much better than those now on the table. Obviously HYS provides the best shot international opportunities but that doesnt mean other schools cant provide better outcomes.


I'm just saying that if OP has taken the LSAT 4 times and consistently gotten in the 159-161 score range, then they're done for. They either have too severe of test anxiety or are too lazy to do PTs under proper time conditions, because they should have gotten at least one of four scores in that range. Like c'mon. There is a difference between PTing in 163-172 range and getting a 161 on your first test versus getting a 161 on your fourth test after PTing in that range.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby FutureSuperLawyer » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:11 pm

I really admire your willingness to work for an NGO. Most law students do big law because they want big money. But you can really help people at an NGO even though you'll only make a healthy living, as opposed to getting rich with a big law job. For international there are two schools you should consider. American University Washington College has a comprehensive program in international law. You'll also be in DC where there are many many NGOs. Go to American's website and you'll see how you can get an internship at one of them that leads to a great job. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBhnGDAIVLk

The other school to consider is Case Western. Its got an international program with a $3 million endowment. Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeKvYxChWY

The big challenge you'll face is staying true to the dream of helping others. Too many law students start out like you, wanting to help others, but by the time they graduate they can't resist the siren call of huge salaries at big law. So I say to you, stay true to your dreams. Good luck.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby trebekismyhero » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:27 pm

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:I really admire your willingness to work for an NGO. Most law students do big law because they want big money. But you can really help people at an NGO even though you'll only make a healthy living, as opposed to getting rich with a big law job. For international there are two schools you should consider. American University Washington College has a comprehensive program in international law. You'll also be in DC where there are many many NGOs. Go to American's website and you'll see how you can get an internship at one of them that leads to a great job. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBhnGDAIVLk

The other school to consider is Case Western. Its got an international program with a $3 million endowment. Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeKvYxChWY

The big challenge you'll face is staying true to the dream of helping others. Too many law students start out like you, wanting to help others, but by the time they graduate they can't resist the siren call of huge salaries at big law. So I say to you, stay true to your dreams. Good luck.


American is a terrible law school with a 44% employment score. Case is ok, but still under 60% employment. Don't encourage people to attend these schools

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby T3TON » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:58 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
FutureSuperLawyer wrote:I really admire your willingness to work for an NGO. Most law students do big law because they want big money. But you can really help people at an NGO even though you'll only make a healthy living, as opposed to getting rich with a big law job. For international there are two schools you should consider. American University Washington College has a comprehensive program in international law. You'll also be in DC where there are many many NGOs. Go to American's website and you'll see how you can get an internship at one of them that leads to a great job. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBhnGDAIVLk

The other school to consider is Case Western. Its got an international program with a $3 million endowment. Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeKvYxChWY

The big challenge you'll face is staying true to the dream of helping others. Too many law students start out like you, wanting to help others, but by the time they graduate they can't resist the siren call of huge salaries at big law. So I say to you, stay true to your dreams. Good luck.


American is a terrible law school with a 44% employment score. Case is ok, but still under 60% employment. Don't encourage people to attend these schools


Plus neither will get OP anywhere near a reputable international NGO.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby Rigo » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:13 pm

FutureSuperLawyer wrote:I really admire your willingness to work for an NGO. Most law students do big law because they want big money. But you can really help people at an NGO even though you'll only make a healthy living, as opposed to getting rich with a big law job. For international there are two schools you should consider. American University Washington College has a comprehensive program in international law. You'll also be in DC where there are many many NGOs. Go to American's website and you'll see how you can get an internship at one of them that leads to a great job. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBhnGDAIVLk

The other school to consider is Case Western. Its got an international program with a $3 million endowment. Take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeKvYxChWY

The big challenge you'll face is staying true to the dream of helping others. Too many law students start out like you, wanting to help others, but by the time they graduate they can't resist the siren call of huge salaries at big law. So I say to you, stay true to your dreams. Good luck.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby AT9 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:21 pm

If you're absolutely determined to go to law school, I'd join the other poster who doesn't think a retake would be helpful here unless there's something you're doing/not doing that would be easy to correct. If you've studied diligently and efficiently and haven't scored above a 161 in four tries, I'm not sure the odds are great that you'll luck out on the 5th try. That, and I think you've somewhat outperformed your stats in terms of your scholarship offers (maybe I'm out of touch with admissions standards). For those reasons, I'm not confident your options will be much better if you wait a year and try again (though you might as well take again in June to see what happens). As others have mentioned, I don't think these schools will give you even a decent shot at practicing international law in Korea. That said, if you'd truly be ok working for a small firm or state government type job in any one of the locations you mentioned for 40-60K/year (the kind of median outcome from the schools you listed), then I'd pick the school with the most $$$/location you have ties to.

Before you make that decision, remember that you're sacrificing three years of your life with little/no income, stress/boredom of school, increased debt, and the possibility of working in a less rewarding job for pretty mediocre pay.

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Re: ASU/UIUC/Wake Forest/UC Hastings Unique Case

Postby Johann » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:42 pm

DaOneandOnly wrote:Hello all,

I'm currently 27 from SoCal with 4+years of professional work experience in the biotech space (business management).
Law has been the long-term goal since UG, and while the job i've had has been rewarding and allowed me to save $, I'm ready to begin my legal career.

Thus far I've received admissions from:
UIUC (full tuition)
ASU (20k per year)
Wake Forest (40k/year)
Case Western (42k/year)
UC Hastings (40k/year)
U of Colorado (no scholarship info yet)

I am somewhat debt averse but considering my savings and some property income I'm okay with spending up to ~$30k/year for COA wherever I go.

LSAT: 159-161 GPA 3.5
LSAT Taken 4 times. Have p-tested 163-172 and have historically done well in standardized testing: SAT (2250/2400) ACT 32-33?/36.
It seems my LG is the most erratic: offical tests -3, -5, my 161 came from -12 with 2-4 incorrect answers in the other subjects.
I think some testing anxiety is coming into play these days due to the stress of being an adult and knowing what I do nowadays has very real impact on my future.

About my situation: I have a fiancee who is Korean and lives in Seoul. We met while I was living and working there, did long-distance for a couple years, and I popped the question recently. We have been transparent about our future goals/possibilities and she knows that life in America would happen somewhere down the road. We plan on getting married next year (after 1L if I decide to attend Fall of 2017).

I have two (maybe 3?) divergent paths that I would be happy with upon graduating from LS which are:
(1)working and living in Korea for several years while my SO continues and finishes her career (she is a fairly successful singer in the k-pop world). We plan on having a family as soon as I'm out of law school wherever we end up. I have several good connections with lawyers in Seoul and other potential job opportunities including the biotech company that I have worked at which has a branch in Korea. Would like to stay in Seoul for 3-10 years taking into consideration the future kids (I would like for them to grow up in Korea and be raised in the States later on).
(2)working and living in the States. I am comfortable with most locations as I have travelled and lived in the States, Italy, and Korea with volunteer experience in Southeast Asia/Mexico. The factor I must consider is that if we live in the States, it would be ideal if there is a sizable Korean population where we end up to ease the transition and up the QoL for my SO (she does not yet speak English very well).
(3)find a job that allows me to travel back and forth from Korea-US and figure out where home base is then.

I have interest in International Law (NGOs<-->Corporate), BL in the States, not opposed to local law, and would most like to work in Korea with a JD

I expect the general consensus would be to wait a cycle and retake, but would appreciate detailed responses with consideration of my situation and wanting to get started with law school.

Thank you all! :wink:


id think very hard about this. attorney routinely wins worst job. if you have a good or alright thing going, i would not change it because of some childhood dream.



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