Final Question: Pick my school

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which LS? Read the post for more info/scholarships/goals

PSU-Dickinson (65)
38
49%
Penn State Law (82)
7
9%
Temple (53)
11
14%
Drexel (112)
15
19%
Rutgers (62)
6
8%
 
Total votes: 77

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bmathers

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Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:15 pm

First off, I realize that ranking means absolutely nothing when you get up this high, but I listed them anyway.

My situation: Goal: to work in a city, most likely, we will say Philadelphia

Pretty debt-averse. I have $15-20k in savings and should be bringing in another $25k-30k/yr while attending LS (though not guaranteed. I would say over $10k is guaranteed, but even $35-40 is possible).

Dickinson: 100% tuition scholarship + $15k stipend ($5k/yr)

Penn State Law: 100% tuition scholarship

Drexel: 100% tuition scholarship, but it DOES NOT increase with any increases in tuition + an additional $1300 book stipend during my first year

RU: Just applying tonight, I let them fall through the cracks. Should be a nice scholarship to attend

Temple: on the WL, but on LawSchoolNumbers.com, other people with my stats got in... so, I should stand a good chance of getting in off the WL, but that would probable be for in-state sticker ($23k/yr)

Other options that I'm not considering: Pitt for $11k/yr with a GPA stip, GSU sticker (a little over $30k/yr), UMD with a $15k/yr ship (would be $30k/yr)

Retake is not an option, it would require me to sit out 2 more cycles. I am not old (30), but I've sat out one cycle already to retake and it's time to get this show on the road.

Thanks

I just called an alum from one of these schools at Reed Smith in Philly, to get her input on the matter.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby baseballfan660 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:43 pm

bmathers wrote:First off, I realize that ranking means absolutely nothing when you get up this high, but I listed them anyway.

My situation: Goal: to work in a city, most likely, we will say Philadelphia

Pretty debt-averse. I have $15-20k in savings and should be bringing in another $25k-30k/yr while attending LS (though not guaranteed. I would say over $10k is guaranteed, but even $35-40 is possible).

Dickinson: 100% tuition scholarship + $15k stipend ($5k/yr)

Penn State Law: 100% tuition scholarship

Drexel: 100% tuition scholarship, but it DOES NOT increase with any increases in tuition + an additional $1300 book stipend during my first year

RU: Just applying tonight, I let them fall through the cracks. Should be a nice scholarship to attend

Temple: on the WL, but on LawSchoolNumbers.com, other people with my stats got in... so, I should stand a good chance of getting in off the WL, but that would probable be for in-state sticker ($23k/yr)

Other options that I'm not considering: Pitt for $11k/yr with a GPA stip, GSU sticker (a little over $30k/yr), UMD with a $15k/yr ship (would be $30k/yr)

Retake is not an option, it would require me to sit out 2 more cycles. I am not old (30), but I've sat out one cycle already to retake and it's time to get this show on the road.

Thanks

I just called an alum from one of these schools at Reed Smith in Philly, to get her input on the matter.

Are you from Pennsylvania or New Jersey. Rutgers is pretty stingy at least with in-state residents. I don't think they give out full tuition scholarships.New jersey it's only 24k in state per year so it might be worth it, but if you're out of state i would not count on a big scholly.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby jas230314 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:48 pm

Interested to hear what the person at Reed Smith has to say on the matter.

My vote is for Dickinson, but as someone who will be heading to Dickinson in the fall with a similar offer, I may be biased.

The biggest issue is that going to Dickinson and hoping for Philadelphia may be difficult - although by no means impossible. I would say you should only go to Dickinson if you're okay with possibly ending up in central PA.

I don't know much about Drexel, but it may offer more opportunity for Philly. Then again, there are a lot of schools in Philly that Drexel would be competing with.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:51 pm

Why is "none" not an option?

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby jas230314 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:56 pm

zot1 wrote:Why is "none" not an option?


As someone who went into a lot of debt for their degree, I'd expect you to respect some of these options as a way to get a law degree for next to nothing.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:05 am

jas230314 wrote:Interested to hear what the person at Reed Smith has to say on the matter.

She said Drexel, even though she was a Dickinson alum (but at University Park, back when it was a dual campus model). She said that Dickinson can break into Philly, but it's not what Dickinson was built for -- they were built to create lawyers for the surrounding communities. I guess starting in Hburg may not be THAT horrible...

She said that Drexel, although it is young, is building up a reputation in Philly and creating connections. She said that no one in Philadelphia when hiring looks down on Drexel or questions the education a Drexel alum received.

The truth is, when I emailed Dickinson and asked to be put in tough with an alum in a big firm in Philly, I was put in touch with an attorney at a small or mid-size practice located in Philly. I found few partners at both Pepper Hamilton and Reed Smith from Dickinson, buy graduated 30+ years ago.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby jas230314 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:14 am

bmathers wrote:
jas230314 wrote:Interested to hear what the person at Reed Smith has to say on the matter.

She said Drexel, even though she was a Dickinson alum (but at University Park, back when it was a dual campus model). She said that Dickinson can break into Philly, but it's not what Dickinson was built for -- they were built to create lawyers for the surrounding communities. I guess starting in Hburg may not be THAT horrible...

She said that Drexel, although it is young, is building up a reputation in Philly and creating connections. She said that no one in Philadelphia when hiring looks down on Drexel or questions the education a Drexel alum received.

The truth is, when I emailed Dickinson and asked to be put in tough with an alum in a big firm in Philly, I was put in touch with an attorney at a small or mid-size practice located in Philly. I found few partners at both Pepper Hamilton and Reed Smith from Dickinson, buy graduated 30+ years ago.


Interesting information.

Yeah, I think it may depend on how set you are at working in Philly. It may be worth noting Pepper Hamilton has a Harrisburg office with a good amount of Dickinson alums (more recent ones). If big firms are what you're after, I am pretty sure Drexel and Dickinson alums are relatively even.

Do you know what you want to do post grad? I know central PA isn't the most desired location on earth, but Harrisburg has tons of state govt work. Plus cost of living is cheaper compared to Philly, which may be worth considering for you depending on how debt averse you are.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:22 am

jas230314 wrote:
bmathers wrote:
jas230314 wrote:Interested to hear what the person at Reed Smith has to say on the matter.

She said Drexel, even though she was a Dickinson alum (but at University Park, back when it was a dual campus model). She said that Dickinson can break into Philly, but it's not what Dickinson was built for -- they were built to create lawyers for the surrounding communities. I guess starting in Hburg may not be THAT horrible...

She said that Drexel, although it is young, is building up a reputation in Philly and creating connections. She said that no one in Philadelphia when hiring looks down on Drexel or questions the education a Drexel alum received.

The truth is, when I emailed Dickinson and asked to be put in tough with an alum in a big firm in Philly, I was put in touch with an attorney at a small or mid-size practice located in Philly. I found few partners at both Pepper Hamilton and Reed Smith from Dickinson, buy graduated 30+ years ago.


Interesting information.

Yeah, I think it may depend on how set you are at working in Philly. It may be worth noting Pepper Hamilton has a Harrisburg office with a good amount of Dickinson alums (more recent ones). If big firms are what you're after, I am pretty sure Drexel and Dickinson alums are relatively even.

Do you know what you want to do post grad? I know central PA isn't the most desired location on earth, but Harrisburg has tons of state govt work. Plus cost of living is cheaper compared to Philly, which may be worth considering for you depending on how debt averse you are.

Yes, wasn't Bekah (admissions asst. dean) working at Pepper Hamilton before she came back to Dickinson? I know she was working for Pepper, and I assume it was at the Hburg location.

The lady from Reed Smith also said that a lot of those Hburg satellite offices from big Philly firms are closings. I do not know really what I want to do post-grad quite yet. I wasn't even considering large firms before, but I want to shoot for the stars if my grades allow it, and even a year or two of Biglaw is great for your resume (I also wouldn't mind starting debt-free at $100k/year.

McNees is a fairly large firm in Hburg that is full of Dickinson alums and starts off at $90k in an area with very affordable COL.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby zot1 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:13 am

jas230314 wrote:
zot1 wrote:Why is "none" not an option?


As someone who went into a lot of debt for their degree, I'd expect you to respect some of these options as a way to get a law degree for next to nothing.


lol expecting things of people is dangerous. But really, if you're conducting a poll, you get a better answer when you don't influence your pollsters into answering a certain way. Not providing a "none" choice forces all pollsters into telling you to pick a certain school. But it's your poll (I think, I didn't look at who the OP was).

FWIW I got into debt to go to a school I wanted to go to that would also gave me the best return on my investment. I could have gone to a bottom T1 or TTT for free but that seemed like a big waste of my life. Just because you can jump over a bridge for free doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby jas230314 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:54 am

zot1 wrote:
jas230314 wrote:
zot1 wrote:Why is "none" not an option?


As someone who went into a lot of debt for their degree, I'd expect you to respect some of these options as a way to get a law degree for next to nothing.


lol expecting things of people is dangerous. But really, if you're conducting a poll, you get a better answer when you don't influence your pollsters into answering a certain way. Not providing a "none" choice forces all pollsters into telling you to pick a certain school. But it's your poll (I think, I didn't look at who the OP was).



You're not much fun to talk to.

(Not my poll for what it's worth)

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby zot1 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:59 am

jas230314 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
jas230314 wrote:
zot1 wrote:Why is "none" not an option?


As someone who went into a lot of debt for their degree, I'd expect you to respect some of these options as a way to get a law degree for next to nothing.


lol expecting things of people is dangerous. But really, if you're conducting a poll, you get a better answer when you don't influence your pollsters into answering a certain way. Not providing a "none" choice forces all pollsters into telling you to pick a certain school. But it's your poll (I think, I didn't look at who the OP was).



You're not much fun to talk to.

(Not my poll for what it's worth)


The good news is you never have to talk to me.

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trebekismyhero

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby trebekismyhero » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:39 pm

Dickinson or Drexel.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby pyramidenergy888 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:13 pm

Do Dickinson but actually don't so you can leave a stipend for me... :)

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:38 pm

The reason I didn't include "None" as a choice is because that has nearly the same likelihood of occurring as me attending Yale of a full-ride. I didn't include Yale as an option, so didn't include "None" either. And actually, you can choose none... just don't vote

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:42 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:Dickinson or Drexel.

That's what I basically have figured that it will come down to. I feel Drexel may be a bit riskier than Dickinson, reason being is I would need to finish around the same % to have a shot at a large firm (and, it's definitely better than I figure I will finish). Past that, which it may be a bit advantageous for, salaries from Dickinson grads have a higher mean. So, I feel Drexel would be a "go big or go home" risk, to an extent.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby chargers21 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:47 am

Dickinson, because I'm assuming the rent is next to nothing so the degree might literally end up being free to you, and thus at this level of school would be the safest option.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby zot1 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:10 am

bmathers wrote:The reason I didn't include "None" as a choice is because that has nearly the same likelihood of occurring as me attending Yale of a full-ride. I didn't include Yale as an option, so didn't include "None" either. And actually, you can choose none... just don't vote


Based on this answer, yeah you probably should go to one of these schools anyway. Maybe Dickinson. Best of luck!

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby Ronan » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:19 am

Does your scholarship at Drexel have a stipulation? If not, that's your best bet for Philly out of these options.

Wasn't Villanova an option before? I feel like you've made a thousand of these threads.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby zeglo » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:29 am

.
Last edited by zeglo on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:15 pm

Ronan wrote:Does your scholarship at Drexel have a stipulation? If not, that's your best bet for Philly out of these options.

Wasn't Villanova an option before? I feel like you've made a thousand of these threads.

No stipulation for Drexel. For Nova, they offered me $35k/yr last cycle, an offer that I was prepared to accept this cycle. When they WL'd me this cycle, I withdrew my app (after talking with the admissions, sending an LOCI, etc - so, I know that I was not just being yield-checked. I want to make my final decision by April 15, and then look for housing and sign a lease. Nova told me that I had 0 chance of hearing back by the 15th... an acceptance in July would not have worked for me, hence my decision to withdrawal).

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:14 pm

LSN now has both PSU law schools info and stats listed and updates!

I am looking at the numbers on the last graduating class from Dickinson, and the numbers worry me a little bit. Only 1 student found employment at a firm of over 100 attorneys, and only 3 students found employment at firms of greater than 25 attorneys. Furthermore, their FT, LT, BPR employment rate was 60%.

Drexel is not a whole lot better. 65% of the 2015 class were in full-time, long-term, bar passage required positions. 10 2015 grads worked at firms larger than 24 attorneys, 4 at firms larger than 100 attorneys (1 at 501+ attorneys).

Short of the employment rate, the numbers are obviously not comparing apples to apples. The Drexel graduating class had double the number of graduates as that of Dickinson.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby trebekismyhero » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:18 pm

bmathers wrote:LSN now has both PSU law schools info and stats listed and updates!

I am looking at the numbers on the last graduating class from Dickinson, and the numbers worry me a little bit. Only 1 student found employment at a firm of over 100 attorneys, and only 3 students found employment at firms of greater than 25 attorneys. Furthermore, their FT, LT, BPR employment rate was 60%.

Drexel is not a whole lot better. 65% of the 2015 class were in full-time, long-term, bar passage required positions. 10 2015 grads worked at firms larger than 24 attorneys, 4 at firms larger than 100 attorneys (1 at 501+ attorneys).

Short of the employment rate, the numbers are obviously not comparing apples to apples. The Drexel graduating class had double the number of graduates as that of Dickinson.


All of these schools are going to most likely result in you working at >10 attorney firms making less than $65k. If you want more than that then you shouldn't go to law school right now. Drexel and Dickinson are basically the same. Just need to decide if you want to work at a small firm in Philly or a small firm in the rest of PA

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:04 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
bmathers wrote:LSN now has both PSU law schools info and stats listed and updates!

I am looking at the numbers on the last graduating class from Dickinson, and the numbers worry me a little bit. Only 1 student found employment at a firm of over 100 attorneys, and only 3 students found employment at firms of greater than 25 attorneys. Furthermore, their FT, LT, BPR employment rate was 60%.

Drexel is not a whole lot better. 65% of the 2015 class were in full-time, long-term, bar passage required positions. 10 2015 grads worked at firms larger than 24 attorneys, 4 at firms larger than 100 attorneys (1 at 501+ attorneys).

Short of the employment rate, the numbers are obviously not comparing apples to apples. The Drexel graduating class had double the number of graduates as that of Dickinson.


All of these schools are going to most likely result in you working at >10 attorney firms making less than $65k. If you want more than that then you shouldn't go to law school right now. Drexel and Dickinson are basically the same. Just need to decide if you want to work at a small firm in Philly or a small firm in the rest of PA

Thank you for your response, and understood. Making $60k my first year, with absolutely zero student loans, may not be the worst gig (I probably made just shy of $50k last year, still have to do my taxes), with a good deal up upward mobility. If I perform well enough to become an associate attorney at a McNeese (Hburg), they start around $90k with a low cost of living, or if all of the stars align and I get into a Reed Smith (Philly) or Pepper Hamilton (Philly, assuming I am interested in firms of this size and stress), then I hit the jackpot with zero debt - I realize this is faaarrr from a likely scenario, and will depend a lot on my grades and my summer internships that I am able to get.

According to email discussions, a decent number of Philly firms partake in OCI at both schools. So, if I really pull the grades (top 15%), the opportunity is there. But, if I am around median grades, $50-60k is a likely projection (FWIW, my father has a firm somewhere in rural PA and he typically starts new associates at $50k-$55k/yr, with definite upward mobility potential if they prove their worth). There is something to say for very real potential/likelihood of going through Dickinson with absolutely zero debt (possibly even increased savings).

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby chelssd3232 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:40 pm

I'm in a similar boat, and one thing that has been reiterated to me by many people is not to rule out Drexel because of their newness. I'm still not decided, but I went to their Admitted Students Weekend and was impressed. If you're interested in being a trial attorney, Drexel and Temple will probably have the best programs out of your list of schools.

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Re: Final Question: Pick my school

Postby bmathers » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:11 pm

chelssd3232 wrote:I'm in a similar boat, and one thing that has been reiterated to me by many people is not to rule out Drexel because of their newness. I'm still not decided, but I went to their Admitted Students Weekend and was impressed. If you're interested in being a trial attorney, Drexel and Temple will probably have the best programs out of your list of schools.

I went to their ASW and was not really impressed. The dean was really, really unimpressive and the building was horrible - two things I can overlook, though (I have visited around 6 schools, to compare the dean and building impressed me the least out of all of them). They boasted (a bit nauseatingly) about their trial advocacy success, that was their primary pitch -- every school has some rankings and competition that they do well in, Dickinson boasts (actually, not even mentioned at the ASW) of being ranked top 5 for trial advocacy and doing well in competitions. If that is all a school has, they will boast about it, over-the-top, at ASD -- case-in-point with Drexel.

I mean, Drexel is taken seriously by Philly firms, even with their newness. There is some good with the school, but I feel that it was not reall shown at ASW, it could have used more planning, I think.



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