Should I go to law school...?

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:56 pm

zot1 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


That's not the logic you want to use though. Alright, I've been forced to be useful or something like that.

If OP wants to be a PD and that's all they want in life, then yeah, he or she should go to law school because it's rather hard to become a PD without becoming a JD.

If OP doesn't care about having a life consumed by debt, then he or she could try to go now. Otherwise, I strongly advise retaking. If OP can't wait for actually real reasons, then OP could jump and hope for he best.

OP should not rely on lrap. We don't really know what the state of the program is gonna be when op graduates. But more important, if op can't get a public interest job and that's a requirement for lrap, then that's gonna suck. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.

But more importantly OP, you could apply and see what happens. But you should really weigh your option carefully. Just because you could walk into the middle of the road as cars are driving by, it doesn't mean you should.

People, myself included at the time, don't understand well the debt commitment that comes from law school when they're applying. This makes sense because we are mostly young and have never had to manage that amount of debt. It's exhausting and stressful and it's further made worse when you think any day now the government will do something to make everything a big mess.

That being said, if this is your dream, make it happen. Just understand that this will impact your life for decades to come, not just three years.


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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby 20170322 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:56 pm

Conclusion: work for a year or two in a PD's office, retake, and go to UNC on a full ride.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:58 pm

SweetTort wrote:Conclusion: work for a year or two in a PD's office, retake, and go to UNC on a full ride.


I second this.

I'm not sure if this just a NY thing but I think NY Federal Defenders require a 2 year commitment so make sure to check!

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zot1

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby zot1 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:59 pm

Damn that had a lot of typos.

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nealric

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby nealric » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:16 pm

beforethelaw wrote:So I just got my lsat back and I'm pretty disappointed. I got a 159 and gpa is 3.43. Was PTing in low 160s. I know I may get a lot of retake advice, but I feel like my max is probably only a couple of points higher, and it seems like waiting a year for a chance at a couple-point increase might not be worth it.

I want to be a public defender in the southeast. Ideally in NC. So wherever I go (if I go at all) I will need to make sure they have a decent lrap program.

Are my goals possible with these numbers? Any advice?


Even a couple of points higher could result in tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money or vastly different school options. It's March and the next cycle won't open up until well after the next administration. You are too late to apply this year. Even if there is a school that will take your application, you will be last in line for money. There is no reason not to retake other than laziness.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby adil91 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:16 pm

beforethelaw wrote:So I just got my lsat back and I'm pretty disappointed. I got a 159 and gpa is 3.43. Was PTing in low 160s. I know I may get a lot of retake advice, but I feel like my max is probably only a couple of points higher, and it seems like waiting a year for a chance at a couple-point increase might not be worth it.

I want to be a public defender in the southeast. Ideally in NC. So wherever I go (if I go at all) I will need to make sure they have a decent lrap program.

Are my goals possible with these numbers? Any advice?



I had almost the exact GPA and the same LSAT score. I studied about 3 months for the first take but I didn't study very hard. I decided to retake and studied intensively for a month. I took the next LSAT and improved my score by 8 points and am now at a t20. Try a different method of studying, study harder and longer and retake.
Last edited by adil91 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nealric

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby nealric » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


You realize that many posters who advocate retakes are practicing attorneys, right? I humbly suggest that the younger, less experienced, poster is far more likely to be out of touch with respect to the realities of the legal profession.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby nealric » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:19 pm

adil91 wrote:Try a different method of studying, study harder and longer and retake.


This. You should be studying until your eyes bleed. Don't just take a bunch of practice tests. Become one with the LSAT. Understand every type of question that could possibly be asked inside and out. Your legal career depends on it.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby beforethelaw » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:49 am

Really appreciate the advice, everyone. Still holding out hope for this admission cycle but I'll get the wheels turning on hunting for PD jobs.

What is the best strategy for trying to get a legal assistant/paralegal job without work experience in the legal field? Will the fact that I'm actively trying to get into law school help or hurt my chances?

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:12 am

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


I cringe even before I read your posts now.

Just because you're using a delusional sense of logic doesn't mean that it's the right logic.

OP: I retook (even though I really didn't want to) and reapplied this cycle and made around $60k at the school I really wanted to go to. I wasn't even accepted last cycle. I only improved a couple of points. It's worth it.


Anecdotal evidence that is given a false impression of being more common than it actually is by the unrepresentative number of retake "success stories" on TLS. Your anecdotal case should have little bearing on OP's decision because while you're right that COULD be him, statistically speaking it probably won't be. Funny how people have no problem bringing this up with 1L grades(don't bring up the curve we both know that doesn't matter, getting a high LSAT tends to stay just as rare as it's always been).

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:14 am

beforethelaw wrote:Really appreciate the advice, everyone. Still holding out hope for this admission cycle but I'll get the wheels turning on hunting for PD jobs.

What is the best strategy for trying to get a legal assistant/paralegal job without work experience in the legal field? Will the fact that I'm actively trying to get into law school help or hurt my chances?


Have you looked into CUNY, or NCC? The schools aren't great but you'd have less debt and one's really good for PI(for it's cost) and the other is in your preferred market of NC. Just throwing out options!
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:17 am

SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby beforethelaw » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:25 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:16 am

beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.


You are right of course, anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move(something we all agree on),my issue is many people on here oversell the chances of retake success through anecdotal evidence. In terms of the general population, LSAT increases especially for the third take aren't that great(there's a thread on this you can check out that goes into detail about the stats) and most people don't have that dramatic increase that you hear about so often on here. The fact that so many high scorers on here creates a false sense of just how easy/likely these scores are to get. Of course if you don't have to put off a cycle retaking is a no brainier but much of the time if not a majority of the time the retake advice is coupled with telling someone to put aside perfectly good options to dedicate a year to retaking with no guarantee(or even a great chance) of any improvement never mind the kind of improvement necessary to make the year off worth it. Of course for some people, this advice will turn out wonderfully (and they will then come here as Jehovah's witnesses of such and understandably so) but statistically that isn't what happens to most retakers. There's no harm in rolling the dice of course when you're not giving away time and you should, but rolling the dice hoping you'll win while giving up time to do so (and for pretty bad odds) just doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby beforethelaw » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:25 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.


You are right of course, anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move(something we all agree on),my issue is many people on here oversell the chances of retake success through anecdotal evidence. In terms of the general population, LSAT increases especially for the third take aren't that great(there's a thread on this you can check out that goes into detail about the stats) and most people don't have that dramatic increase that you hear about so often on here. The fact that so many high scorers on here creates a false sense of just how easy/likely these scores are to get. Of course if you don't have to put off a cycle retaking is a no brainier but much of the time if not a majority of the time the retake advice is coupled with telling someone to put aside perfectly good options to dedicate a year to retaking with no guarantee(or even a great chance) of any improvement never mind the kind of improvement necessary to make the year off worth it. Of course for some people, this advice will turn out wonderfully (and they will then come here as Jehovah's witnesses of such and understandably so) but statistically that isn't what happens to most retakers. There's no harm in rolling the dice of course when you're not giving away time and you should, but rolling the dice hoping you'll win while giving up time to do so (and for pretty bad odds) just doesn't make sense to me.


Yeah, this position is similar to one I expressed in a previous post, albeit yours is a touch harsher on TLS community. But hunting for relevant work experience in your field of interest as a legal assistant/paralegal seems a sensible way to spend a "retake year." (Or two?). Especially considering that you would also have a shot at getting them to finance a part-time legal education. Like, I'm never gonna going to be rich as a PD, so living tight with a debt load under 100k is an acceptable outcome if I can get it this cycle. Much more than that, though, no thanks...

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby AJordan » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:58 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.


You are right of course, anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move(something we all agree on),my issue is many people on here oversell the chances of retake success through anecdotal evidence. In terms of the general population, LSAT increases especially for the third take aren't that great(there's a thread on this you can check out that goes into detail about the stats) and most people don't have that dramatic increase that you hear about so often on here. The fact that so many high scorers on here creates a false sense of just how easy/likely these scores are to get. Of course if you don't have to put off a cycle retaking is a no brainier but much of the time if not a majority of the time the retake advice is coupled with telling someone to put aside perfectly good options to dedicate a year to retaking with no guarantee(or even a great chance) of any improvement never mind the kind of improvement necessary to make the year off worth it. Of course for some people, this advice will turn out wonderfully (and they will then come here as Jehovah's witnesses of such and understandably so) but statistically that isn't what happens to most retakers. There's no harm in rolling the dice of course when you're not giving away time and you should, but rolling the dice hoping you'll win while giving up time to do so (and for pretty bad odds) just doesn't make sense to me.


I agree with some of the things you mention wrt this argument. The alternate issue is that our brains do not naturally intuit things like probability/cost analysis and risk mitigation/reward impact. The cost of taking the LSAT again is, in this age of skyrocketing tuition/debt, becoming so low and the rewards of scoring even 3-5 points higher so high that the other arguments you make end up looking like justification for not doing it even though some of them make sense.

OP, my advice is to pick a law school that will allow you to attend on a full ride. If your numbers currently allow you to go to a school you're happy with, by all means go for it. Just understand that even five more LSAT points makes you a far different candidate and someone who can gun for a full ride at a better school. 160-165 is like 8-10 questions. You can do that if you really want it.
Last edited by AJordan on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:21 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


I cringe even before I read your posts now.

Just because you're using a delusional sense of logic doesn't mean that it's the right logic.

OP: I retook (even though I really didn't want to) and reapplied this cycle and made around $60k at the school I really wanted to go to. I wasn't even accepted last cycle. I only improved a couple of points. It's worth it.


Anecdotal evidence that is given a false impression of being more common than it actually is by the unrepresentative number of retake "success stories" on TLS. Your anecdotal case should have little bearing on OP's decision because while you're right that COULD be him, statistically speaking it probably won't be. Funny how people have no problem bringing this up with 1L grades(don't bring up the curve we both know that doesn't matter, getting a high LSAT tends to stay just as rare as it's always been).


Speaking of anecdotal evidence...

Statistics actually show that anyone retaking the LSAT (especially those in the 150s and low 160s) is much more likely to see a score increase than a score decrease or no movement at all. Source (instead of making it up): http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/data-(lsac-resources)-docs/repeaterdata.pdf

And, as always, you continually ignore the ability of the OP to pay off their debt with the jobs they're likely to get from these schools. If you're comfortable getting into $150k of debt for a school that won't let you pay it off, more power to you. But stop parading that around as an objectively good decision. Most people are not comfortable with a lifetime of pointless debt.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:22 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.

Please stop. Whatever the numerical "average" LSAT score is doesn't translate into a good or even average outcome in law school. Like, be proud of whatever range of score you want to be proud of, in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean it will be good enough to accomplish your objectives.

Also your argument about the statistical unlikeliness of improvement on retake (which I don't think is even correct) compared to the statistical likelihood of being median in law school doesn't work because the possibility and consequences are completely different. You control your LSAT score the way you don't control law school grades because the LSAT isn't graded on a curve the way that law school is; it's only up to your studying. And law school isn't going anywhere - taking the time off doesn't hurt anything. But you only get one shot at 1L grades.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby beforethelaw » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:48 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


I cringe even before I read your posts now.

Just because you're using a delusional sense of logic doesn't mean that it's the right logic.

OP: I retook (even though I really didn't want to) and reapplied this cycle and made around $60k at the school I really wanted to go to. I wasn't even accepted last cycle. I only improved a couple of points. It's worth it.


Anecdotal evidence that is given a false impression of being more common than it actually is by the unrepresentative number of retake "success stories" on TLS. Your anecdotal case should have little bearing on OP's decision because while you're right that COULD be him, statistically speaking it probably won't be. Funny how people have no problem bringing this up with 1L grades(don't bring up the curve we both know that doesn't matter, getting a high LSAT tends to stay just as rare as it's always been).


Speaking of anecdotal evidence...

Statistics actually show that anyone retaking the LSAT (especially those in the 150s and low 160s) is much more likely to see a score increase than a score decrease or no movement at all. Source (instead of making it up): http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/data-(lsac-resources)-docs/repeaterdata.pdf

And, as always, you continually ignore the ability of the OP to pay off their debt with the jobs they're likely to get from these schools. If you're comfortable getting into $150k of debt for a school that won't let you pay it off, more power to you. But stop parading that around as an objectively good decision. Most people are not comfortable with a lifetime of pointless debt.


Ty for the data. Persuasive.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby lymenheimer » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:32 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


Except, neither you nor OP have a 160s score. In fact, if you'll read the thread, you'll find Rigo suggest getting into the 160s for OP's goals. And nobody trashed him because it's a reasonable solution, for OP's goals. Maximize chances, minimize debt. Idk why I'm substantively responding to you.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby zot1 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:04 am

The legal employment forum has a thread about student loans. I think it would be useful for OP to go through. Don't look at those who are in private practice (able to repay in 3-5 years) but look at those in the same field you want to be in.

And again, think of unemployment. The schools someone here is recommending to you do not give you a great chance of employment. It's even harder to pay back loans when you ain't got no income to pay it with.

I am big proponent of law school, but not of the debt that comes along with. Mostly because it restricts your life in a way that you probably can't imagine right this moment. For example, if you go to school, get into $150k debt (which will increase every year with interest), and are lucky enough to get a job... but what if three years into you decide you actually don't want to be an attorney? Your debt alone will keep you from being able to make a simple career move and you could be stuck for 10-20 years.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:54 pm

beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.


You are right of course, anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move(something we all agree on),my issue is many people on here oversell the chances of retake success through anecdotal evidence. In terms of the general population, LSAT increases especially for the third take aren't that great(there's a thread on this you can check out that goes into detail about the stats) and most people don't have that dramatic increase that you hear about so often on here. The fact that so many high scorers on here creates a false sense of just how easy/likely these scores are to get. Of course if you don't have to put off a cycle retaking is a no brainier but much of the time if not a majority of the time the retake advice is coupled with telling someone to put aside perfectly good options to dedicate a year to retaking with no guarantee(or even a great chance) of any improvement never mind the kind of improvement necessary to make the year off worth it. Of course for some people, this advice will turn out wonderfully (and they will then come here as Jehovah's witnesses of such and understandably so) but statistically that isn't what happens to most retakers. There's no harm in rolling the dice of course when you're not giving away time and you should, but rolling the dice hoping you'll win while giving up time to do so (and for pretty bad odds) just doesn't make sense to me.


Yeah, this position is similar to one I expressed in a previous post, albeit yours is a touch harsher on TLS community. But hunting for relevant work experience in your field of interest as a legal assistant/paralegal seems a sensible way to spend a "retake year." (Or two?). Especially considering that you would also have a shot at getting them to finance a part-time legal education. Like, I'm never gonna going to be rich as a PD, so living tight with a debt load under 100k is an acceptable outcome if I can get it this cycle. Much more than that, though, no thanks...


Yeah if you're fine with taking the year off and it makes sense to you then go for it, it's the mart move. It's just for many people taking the year off is a sacrifice, if for you that's not the case and the chance of improvement is worth it to you then go for it! Also my ceiling would be 100k for any non dream school, 150k is my absolute limit. People are accusing me of encouraging people to take out 150k! As a PD you should try to limit loans and an 100k ceiling is perfectly reasonable IMO and anything lower is a victory!

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Ferrisjso

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:57 pm

AJordan wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
beforethelaw wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.


I think you're probably right to be offended by the suggestion that you're actively trying to ruin lives and that you're lazy, but also I think that being flippant with the re-take advice can be dangerous. Anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move.


You are right of course, anything you can do to avoid being stuck in debt is probably a smart move(something we all agree on),my issue is many people on here oversell the chances of retake success through anecdotal evidence. In terms of the general population, LSAT increases especially for the third take aren't that great(there's a thread on this you can check out that goes into detail about the stats) and most people don't have that dramatic increase that you hear about so often on here. The fact that so many high scorers on here creates a false sense of just how easy/likely these scores are to get. Of course if you don't have to put off a cycle retaking is a no brainier but much of the time if not a majority of the time the retake advice is coupled with telling someone to put aside perfectly good options to dedicate a year to retaking with no guarantee(or even a great chance) of any improvement never mind the kind of improvement necessary to make the year off worth it. Of course for some people, this advice will turn out wonderfully (and they will then come here as Jehovah's witnesses of such and understandably so) but statistically that isn't what happens to most retakers. There's no harm in rolling the dice of course when you're not giving away time and you should, but rolling the dice hoping you'll win while giving up time to do so (and for pretty bad odds) just doesn't make sense to me.


I agree with some of the things you mention wrt this argument. The alternate issue is that our brains do not naturally intuit things like probability/cost analysis and risk mitigation/reward impact. The cost of taking the LSAT again is, in this age of skyrocketing tuition/debt, becoming so low and the rewards of scoring even 3-5 points higher so high that the other arguments you make end up looking like justification for not doing it even though some of them make sense.

OP, my advice is to pick a law school that will allow you to attend on a full ride. If your numbers currently allow you to go to a school you're happy with, by all means go for it. Just understand that even five more LSAT points makes you a far different candidate and someone who can gun for a full ride at a better school. 160-165 is like 8-10 questions. You can do that if you really want it.


I understand that it looks like I'm trying to justify my own choices. Doesn't mean what I'm saying is BS though. I did retake three times. Statistically that 8-10 questions is very hard to get, these people design the test to make improvement tough. The people here who've had these huge increases that aren't likely for most are also being driven by their own personal experience, we all have bias.

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:01 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:You're in a good position don't listen to the retake warrors they are so freaking out of touch it's hilarious. You beat over 3/4's of active test takers you should have options and good ones. In a similar situation(156,3.51, soft URM) and the 100k-150k(for schools I really want) ceiling is about the same logic I've been using


Not everyone is content with their low score. Stop trying f to ruin their lives just because you're too lazy to retake.


Stop trying to convince people that 160 LSAT scores are average, just because you're surrounded by a bunch of overachieving test takers! I retook 3 times just like everyone on here said I should, so stop making things up, I was not to lazy to retake.

Please stop. Whatever the numerical "average" LSAT score is doesn't translate into a good or even average outcome in law school. Like, be proud of whatever range of score you want to be proud of, in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean it will be good enough to accomplish your objectives.

Also your argument about the statistical unlikeliness of improvement on retake (which I don't think is even correct) compared to the statistical likelihood of being median in law school doesn't work because the possibility and consequences are completely different. You control your LSAT score the way you don't control law school grades because the LSAT isn't graded on a curve the way that law school is; it's only up to your studying. And law school isn't going anywhere - taking the time off doesn't hurt anything. But you only get one shot at 1L grades.


The numbers are there on another thread, people should expect a small increase the second time and a small decrease the third time. Also while in theory the whole, "you control your own destiny not a curve" in the LSAT is true, at the end of the day to a science almost the same percentage of people get a 160-165-165 plus etc, in practice it might as well be on a hard curve. I don't understand why people just don't take their three takes in college when it doesn't impact them at all. You know we strongly disagree on the harm taking a year off can do!

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Re: Should I go to law school...?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:21 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:The numbers are there on another thread, people should expect a small increase the second time and a small decrease the third time. Also while in theory the whole, "you control your own destiny not a curve" in the LSAT is true, at the end of the day to a science almost the same percentage of people get a 160-165-165 plus etc, in practice it might as well be on a hard curve. I don't understand why people just don't take their three takes in college when it doesn't impact them at all. You know we strongly disagree on the harm taking a year off can do!


Actually, I showed you the numbers on this thread, and you ignored them. And you once again brought up irrelevant data from another thread, which only showed the average scores for second and third-time takers, not the average increase/decrease. And no, for what has to be the fiftieth time, the LSAT is not a forced curve. The curve is set based on how LSAC predicts people will perform, not on your actual performance relative to others. I do not know how this concept hasn't sunken in yet, but this is getting tiresome.

Perhaps most importantly, you have never demonstrated that a year off does any harm, so it's not a disagreement. A disagreement is when two people have equally valid but differing points of view. You're just flat-out wrong.



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