Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

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elendinel

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby elendinel » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:43 pm

brunocarneiro wrote:I don't understand what it is about 9% that seems so scary to you guys, but those are the cards I was dealt.


It's probably not fear you're seeing, so much as most people here don't have the luxury to spend the time or money on law school if there's only a 9% chance of success. If you do, go for it.

I agree with others that your parents' successes mean nothing w/r/t whether or not you, specifically, will succeed. No one's taking a dig at your parents, they're just pointing out that noting other people's succeed with worse odds in a completely different system makes no logical sense in terms of analyzing whether low odds will/won't be in your favor. But again, if you literally have nothing to lose in spending the time/money/etc., go for it. If you'll be no worse off either way, doesn't really matter if the odds are ever in your favor.

Npret

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:10 pm

elendinel wrote:
brunocarneiro wrote:I don't understand what it is about 9% that seems so scary to you guys, but those are the cards I was dealt.


It's probably not fear you're seeing, so much as most people here don't have the luxury to spend the time or money on law school if there's only a 9% chance of success. If you do, go for it.

I agree with others that your parents' successes mean nothing w/r/t whether or not you, specifically, will succeed. No one's taking a dig at your parents, they're just pointing out that noting other people's succeed with worse odds in a completely different system makes no logical sense in terms of analyzing whether low odds will/won't be in your favor. But again, if you literally have nothing to lose in spending the time/money/etc., go for it. If you'll be no worse off either way, doesn't really matter if the odds are ever in your favor.

Yeah. OP is in a situation where living in the US and going to law school for little cost might be his best current option. Most posters here are in different situations. OP has one of the best arguments of anyone in this forum to just go to a cheap law school because his home country is falling apart and there is a chance that within 3 years he can make something work for him here in the US as a lawyer or otherwise. If he goes home he is in a tough situation with few (or possibly no) options.
I know people don't like to hear the "get married" advice but it's a legit solid option for OP. Another few years here in law school can help with that as well.

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby brunocarneiro » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:02 pm

lol this isn't an LSAT question my friend, I'm not saying "It follows logically that I will succeed because my parents succeeded"; what I'm saying is they provide me with inspiration and confidence, given that a mere generation ago they were up against much tougher odds (I can promise you it is MUCH harder to come from literally nothing and become a federal judge compared to landing a Big Law job from Miami with all expenses paid).

Furthermore, I think you guys misunderstood my country's situation - it's not that bad, I can always return as a fallback option and it won't be the end of the world job-prospects wise, but its my personal preference to live in the US in either Miami or NY.

And I indeed have no idea how the grading curve works and would love to hear about it - but let me guess, it forces competition amongst students by delineating only a certain amount of "A", "B", and "C" grades per class? Let me know if I'm wrong.

It's not that scary; if I wanted I could've gotten a law degree at home in 5 years without need for undergrad and lived off my family connections. I didn't come to this country because I like to play it safe, and I didn't post this to get marriage advice - I just need help choosing between two options.

I appreciate and will consider all the advice though, I know its with the best intentions.

cavalier1138

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:06 am

brunocarneiro wrote:And I indeed have no idea how the grading curve works and would love to hear about it - but let me guess, it forces competition amongst students by delineating only a certain amount of "A", "B", and "C" grades per class? Let me know if I'm wrong.


That's the general idea. Your self-confidence is... inspiring, I suppose. None of your potential classmates come to school thinking they'll be in the bottom half of the class. But half of the class always is. Banking on being above the median (let alone the top 9%) is just not that bright.

Npret

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby Npret » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:03 am

brunocarneiro wrote:lol this isn't an LSAT question my friend, I'm not saying "It follows logically that I will succeed because my parents succeeded"; what I'm saying is they provide me with inspiration and confidence, given that a mere generation ago they were up against much tougher odds (I can promise you it is MUCH harder to come from literally nothing and become a federal judge compared to landing a Big Law job from Miami with all expenses paid).

Furthermore, I think you guys misunderstood my country's situation - it's not that bad, I can always return as a fallback option and it won't be the end of the world job-prospects wise, but its my personal preference to live in the US in either Miami or NY.

And I indeed have no idea how the grading curve works and would love to hear about it - but let me guess, it forces competition amongst students by delineating only a certain amount of "A", "B", and "C" grades per class? Let me know if I'm wrong.

It's not that scary; if I wanted I could've gotten a law degree at home in 5 years without need for undergrad and lived off my family connections. I didn't come to this country because I like to play it safe, and I didn't post this to get marriage advice - I just need help choosing between two options.

I appreciate and will consider all the advice though, I know its with the best intentions.


I thought your choices were more stark. You are unlikely to get a job that will sponsor you from these schools. Even if you get sponsored, you still have to win a lottery for a visa where the rules are going to be changing
- though like I said there are exceptions.

If you can just go back home, why can't you retake? You made it sound like law school was now or never.

My advice is still to save money because throwing money at a school like Fordham in NYC where you have no contacts will be a waste.

As far as the grading curve: the number of As are set before class even starts. No matter how much you work you will be up against that curve. Grades are subjective based on a professor grading.

No immigrant student wants to hear marriage advice until
it's too late and they are heading home because no job and no visa. It's just reality.

You sound like you don't actually want advice. So good luck.

eck456

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby eck456 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:02 am

brunocarneiro wrote:It isn't a done deal from any school, plus I'm not "banking everything" because I don't have much to lose - except for my time and effort, plus I still get to walk out with a JD, maybe an LLM as well.

I thought of the other FL schools but I'm not willing to move to a smaller city / town, especially given that I already am established in Miami. So, given there will be no debt either way, are my prospects at Fordham worth the burden? Or should I stick with the safe, cheap option + quality of life benefits of a bigger living stipend?


As an actual person from Florida, I've seen a decent percentage of the Miami Law people I know do very well within the state. Florida pride is REAL, and south florida does love a home player - you just wouldn't have the mobility around the rest of the USA especially with your first few jobs that you would even with a degree from UF. But if you can picture building a life in Miami, and were high in your class, I can imagine you being able to get a job with a local firm or in local government (a lot of Florida politicians including Rubio went to Miami law and like to hire alums, although with international it might add a layer of tricky) without too much stress, even as an international applicant. it definitely is a risk - however, but if you're excited to live/ work in Florida I think it wouldn't be the kind of bad idea people up in the thread are worried about

cavalier1138

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:54 am

eck456 wrote:
brunocarneiro wrote:It isn't a done deal from any school, plus I'm not "banking everything" because I don't have much to lose - except for my time and effort, plus I still get to walk out with a JD, maybe an LLM as well.

I thought of the other FL schools but I'm not willing to move to a smaller city / town, especially given that I already am established in Miami. So, given there will be no debt either way, are my prospects at Fordham worth the burden? Or should I stick with the safe, cheap option + quality of life benefits of a bigger living stipend?


As an actual person from Florida, I've seen a decent percentage of the Miami Law people I know do very well within the state. Florida pride is REAL, and south florida does love a home player - you just wouldn't have the mobility around the rest of the USA especially with your first few jobs that you would even with a degree from UF. But if you can picture building a life in Miami, and were high in your class, I can imagine you being able to get a job with a local firm or in local government (a lot of Florida politicians including Rubio went to Miami law and like to hire alums, although with international it might add a layer of tricky) without too much stress, even as an international applicant. it definitely is a risk - however, but if you're excited to live/ work in Florida I think it wouldn't be the kind of bad idea people up in the thread are worried about


I don't think you quite grasp the visa issue.

The problem isn't that the average Miami graduate can't get work. The problem is that an international student has to find a firm to sponsor their visa. So local firms and local government are out. Federal government is out. The only semi-reliable sponsors for international students are big law firms, and Miami doesn't give the OP a realistic shot at that.

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby brunocarneiro » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:11 pm

You don't quite grasp the Visa issue either - now that I think about it.

1. The limit hasn't been raised to 100k, this is mere speculation and judging by Trump's most recent actions it doesn't seem likely. So hold your horses on your assumption that only BigLaw would be able to sponsor (although its still what I'm aiming for). So your 9% chance (which wasn't that grim in my view) goes up exponentially.

2. There's over 1/3 chance you get the Visa once you have an offer. If I don't get it, I can be relocated and apply again after one year for another 1/3 chance - or I' could get an LLM, which would grant me another year of OPT (being paid) and another chance at the 1/3 lottery.

So - if I apply myself and place well in my class - at the grand cost of ZERO, I'd get at least two years of paid work experience under my belt (one for each degree, regardless of meeting minimum salary requirement), a JD + potentially an LLM, and a solid chance at a permanent work visa?

Sounds like UM is not that bad of a path after all; let me know if I'm wrong

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby lavarman84 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:25 am

brunocarneiro wrote:You don't quite grasp the Visa issue either - now that I think about it.

1. The limit hasn't been raised to 100k, this is mere speculation and judging by Trump's most recent actions it doesn't seem likely. So hold your horses on your assumption that only BigLaw would be able to sponsor (although its still what I'm aiming for). So your 9% chance (which wasn't that grim in my view) goes up exponentially.

2. There's over 1/3 chance you get the Visa once you have an offer. If I don't get it, I can be relocated and apply again after one year for another 1/3 chance - or I' could get an LLM, which would grant me another year of OPT (being paid) and another chance at the 1/3 lottery.

So - if I apply myself and place well in my class - at the grand cost of ZERO, I'd get at least two years of paid work experience under my belt (one for each degree, regardless of meeting minimum salary requirement), a JD + potentially an LLM, and a solid chance at a permanent work visa?

Sounds like UM is not that bad of a path after all; let me know if I'm wrong


Go for it. No use arguing with Cavalier; he has his mind made up already. There's not a lot of risk in this endeavor. Worst case scenario, things don't work out, and you head back to Brazil with a JD (and maybe a LLM). Not like you're using debt to finance it. Miami sounds like the better deal for you and your parents.

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elendinel

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby elendinel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:03 am

brunocarneiro wrote:You don't quite grasp the Visa issue either - now that I think about it.

1. The limit hasn't been raised to 100k, this is mere speculation and judging by Trump's most recent actions it doesn't seem likely. So hold your horses on your assumption that only BigLaw would be able to sponsor (although its still what I'm aiming for). So your 9% chance (which wasn't that grim in my view) goes up exponentially.

2. There's over 1/3 chance you get the Visa once you have an offer. If I don't get it, I can be relocated and apply again after one year for another 1/3 chance - or I' could get an LLM, which would grant me another year of OPT (being paid) and another chance at the 1/3 lottery.

So - if I apply myself and place well in my class - at the grand cost of ZERO, I'd get at least two years of paid work experience under my belt (one for each degree, regardless of meeting minimum salary requirement), a JD + potentially an LLM, and a solid chance at a permanent work visa?

Sounds like UM is not that bad of a path after all; let me know if I'm wrong


It's not that only biglaw CAN sponsor (and the assertion that biglaw is your best shot has nothing to do with the alleged income req); it's that larger firms are more likely to invest in sponsorship, because employees on visas are a hassle and a lot of smaller outfits are less likely to want to deal with that hassle. If you want a green card out of the deal, it's even less likely that you're going to get that kind of deal at a smaller firm. On top of the general application process with the govt, you need to find a firm willing to pay for an immigration lawyer to help you do what it takes to ensure your app goes through quickly and properly. Many firms won't do this. Biglaw firms are the firms most likely to even entertain the possibility of getting a green card for you.

UM is perfectly fine if you literally don't care what the outcome is of getting a JD there. If you have literally no investment in the outcome then there's really no point in even asking what the best option is, either, because if you don't care if your JD ends up being useless, then it doesn't matter what option makes the most sense--it just matters which one you like more. If the end result is a meaningless JD you still have no net loss.

If you do care about the outcome/if a useless JD would be a loss to you, UM is still a bad path for your circumstances, and plenty of people have already told you that, but you seem determined to proceed so long as there is an iota of a chance that you could get what you want at the school you want to go to, so go for it.

cavalier1138

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:14 am

brunocarneiro wrote:1. The limit hasn't been raised to 100k, this is mere speculation and judging by Trump's most recent actions it doesn't seem likely. So hold your horses on your assumption that only BigLaw would be able to sponsor (although its still what I'm aiming for). So your 9% chance (which wasn't that grim in my view) goes up exponentially.


The above post already captured most of this information, but just to re-emphasize: the salary requirement (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. As things currently stand, big law firms are considered the only semi-reliable source for getting visa sponsorship. You can find multiple threads on these forums where international students confirm this.

Again, you do you. I would never waste 3-4 years of my life on a 9% chance of getting what you want (and contrary to the view of "no debt, no loss", you are, in fact, losing quite a bit), but you clearly would. So enjoy the wasted time. Come back to let us know how it went.

Npret

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Re: Unique situation: Fordham vs Miami

Postby Npret » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:30 pm

brunocarneiro wrote:You don't quite grasp the Visa issue either - now that I think about it.

1. The limit hasn't been raised to 100k, this is mere speculation and judging by Trump's most recent actions it doesn't seem likely. So hold your horses on your assumption that only BigLaw would be able to sponsor (although its still what I'm aiming for). So your 9% chance (which wasn't that grim in my view) goes up exponentially.

2. There's over 1/3 chance you get the Visa once you have an offer. If I don't get it, I can be relocated and apply again after one year for another 1/3 chance - or I' could get an LLM, which would grant me another year of OPT (being paid) and another chance at the 1/3 lottery.

So - if I apply myself and place well in my class - at the grand cost of ZERO, I'd get at least two years of paid work experience under my belt (one for each degree, regardless of meeting minimum salary requirement), a JD + potentially an LLM, and a solid chance at a permanent work visa?

Sounds like UM is not that bad of a path after all; let me know if I'm wrong


Where did you get that 1/3 chance number? You also can't assume that if you get denied you will be relocated? Where did you hear that?

This is the policy of Sullivan and Cromwell, one of the largest biglaw firms. If you don't get your visa, they make absolutely no guarantee on relocation. My guess is other biglaw firms are the same. They can't promise that they can relocate you if you don't get a visa.


For lawyers new to the Firm, the Firm will help them secure H 1B visas as well, but new lawyers need to be aware that these efforts may not succeed due to government constraints and new lawyers remain responsible for maintaining their own authority to work in the United States. If a new lawyer is unable to obtain a visa that will permit him or her to work in the United States, the Firm may consider requests to work in a non-U.S. office, but whether office transfers will be permitted will depend on the needs of the Firm, including the relevant office and practice,
and other factors, and the Firm can make no commitments in this regard.


https://www.sullcrom.com/files/upload/visa_policies.pdf

This year predictions are that the Visa quota will be filled in 5 days. With the suspension of expedited processing on April 3, 2017, it will be an even bigger mess than usual.



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