UH vs. UC vs. W&L

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ryan.laine94
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UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:53 pm

Hi all!

So I'm currently debating over 3 schools (with 2 other possibilities depending on how they turn out). A little bit of background - I was born and raised in Ohio, did undergrad in Ohio, and eventually want to leave Ohio for the TX/AZ/CA area (I can't stand cold weather). I am interested in International law, Business law, or international transactions, so I will probably (hopefully) end up in a city setting, but I'm not set on firm size or anything like that. Also, I'm a year out of undergrad, I've been working 1-2 jobs and doing some volunteering stuff since graduation.

So the top 3 schools are (with COA after scholarship):

University of Houston: 48.5k per year
University of Cincinnati: 33.2k per year (this includes full COL, but I would be living at home rent free)
Washington and Lee: 35k per year

Also for consideration:

Baylor University: No scholly and they are SUPER expensive - so this is only an option if I can negotiate a scholarship (which I'm already working on)
Arizona State University: Waitlisted, but I have family in Phoenix which would eliminate living costs

I just wanted to pick some other peoples' brains, since I have a new #1 school every single day in my own mind. Thoughts?

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Socratease
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby Socratease » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:49 pm

ryan.laine94 wrote:Hi all!

So I'm currently debating over 3 schools (with 2 other possibilities depending on how they turn out). A little bit of background - I was born and raised in Ohio, did undergrad in Ohio, and eventually want to leave Ohio for the TX/AZ/CA area (I can't stand cold weather). I am interested in International law, Business law, or international transactions, so I will probably (hopefully) end up in a city setting, but I'm not set on firm size or anything like that. Also, I'm a year out of undergrad, I've been working 1-2 jobs and doing some volunteering stuff since graduation.

So the top 3 schools are (with COA after scholarship):

University of Houston: 48.5k per year
University of Cincinnati: 33.2k per year (this includes full COL, but I would be living at home rent free)
Washington and Lee: 35k per year

Also for consideration:

Baylor University: No scholly and they are SUPER expensive - so this is only an option if I can negotiate a scholarship (which I'm already working on)
Arizona State University: Waitlisted, but I have family in Phoenix which would eliminate living costs

I just wanted to pick some other peoples' brains, since I have a new #1 school every single day in my own mind. Thoughts?


So I think the common consensus on tls is that all 3 of these schools place regionally, when they place at all. So if you want to leave Ohio, do not go to U of Cincinnati. You are confining yourself to Cincinnati. If you want the south, do not go to W&L. You are confining yourself to VA and maybe if you work your arse off and get incredibly lucky (notice the conjunction here), DC. If you really want to work in Houston, Texas, my initial thought is UH is a reasonable option, but you aren't likely to land the sort of job that will enable you to pay back the debt you'll be incurring in LS.

I don't think any of these are good options.

What are your stats?

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dietcoke1
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby dietcoke1 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:57 pm

Considering you want to end up in TX/AZ/CA then I think it comes down to UH or Arizona state. Cincinnati and Washington and Lee would be difficult to get to TX/AZ/CA areas according to LST.

In terms of Arizona State versus UH, my first inclination would be to say to go to UH because of the cost. However, Arizona state in state tuition is really low and if you would have low COL expenses then I wonder how much it would be if you paid the first year out of state tuition and then (if possible) paid in state tuition the last two years. Of course this is assuming you get in off the WL and assuming you can pay in-state tuition in your last two years, which I'm not sure what their policy is on this. I think the decision becomes much closer if you can manage to do that, otherwise I think UH is your best bet considering your desired placement.

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:14 pm

Socratease wrote:
So I think the common consensus on tls is that all 3 of these schools place regionally, when they place at all. So if you want to leave Ohio, do not go to U of Cincinnati. You are confining yourself to Cincinnati. If you want the south, do not go to W&L. You are confining yourself to VA and maybe if you work your arse off and get incredibly lucky (notice the conjunction here), DC. If you really want to work in Houston, Texas, my initial thought is UH is a reasonable option, but you aren't likely to land the sort of job that will enable you to pay back the debt you'll be incurring in LS.

I don't think any of these are good options.

What are your stats?


LSAT: 162
GPA: 2.83

GPA is low for a few reasons, I did add an addendum if that even helped me at all lol.

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:16 pm

dietcoke1 wrote:Considering you want to end up in TX/AZ/CA then I think it comes down to UH or Arizona state. Cincinnati and Washington and Lee would be difficult to get to TX/AZ/CA areas according to LST.

In terms of Arizona State versus UH, my first inclination would be to say to go to UH because of the cost. However, Arizona state in state tuition is really low and if you would have low COL expenses then I wonder how much it would be if you paid the first year out of state tuition and then (if possible) paid in state tuition the last two years. Of course this is assuming you get in off the WL and assuming you can pay in-state tuition in your last two years, which I'm not sure what their policy is on this. I think the decision becomes much closer if you can manage to do that, otherwise I think UH is your best bet considering your desired placement.


That's what was going through my head. I think ASU would be my first choice if I can get off the WL for a few reasons. I have family there so costs would be very low for living (my grandparents live there and would likely help with bills such as gas and books and all that). I have to look into the in-state vs out-of-state costs. I have seen some schools that do reduce it after the first year, but I'm not sure about ASU's policy.

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trebekismyhero
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby trebekismyhero » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:31 pm

Your goals that you describe would require big law. Just be prepared that it is highly unlikely you get big law from any of these schools.

UH and ASU seem to be the only ones that make sense. Personally, both would be too expensive at the current price since most likely your salary out of either will be $50-60k, so I would retake the LSAT.

If you're not going to do that, keep negotiating with UH to get them to lower the price.

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:42 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:Your goals that you describe would require big law. Just be prepared that it is highly unlikely you get big law from any of these schools.

UH and ASU seem to be the only ones that make sense. Personally, both would be too expensive at the current price since most likely your salary out of either will be $50-60k, so I would retake the LSAT.

If you're not going to do that, keep negotiating with UH to get them to lower the price.


Good to know. I'm not dead set on those areas, but they are what I am currently interested in. That could definitely change, but I know for sure that I do not want to do litigation (I'm not a fan of court rooms). I have considered retaking the LSAT and while I'm not opposed to doing it, it certainly isn't my first option either.

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deadpanic
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby deadpanic » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:33 pm

All seem way too expensive to me. 150k for Houston is unfathomable. It is not a bad school, but that is way way too much.

ryan.laine94 wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:Your goals that you describe would require big law. Just be prepared that it is highly unlikely you get big law from any of these schools.

UH and ASU seem to be the only ones that make sense. Personally, both would be too expensive at the current price since most likely your salary out of either will be $50-60k, so I would retake the LSAT.

If you're not going to do that, keep negotiating with UH to get them to lower the price.


Good to know. I'm not dead set on those areas, but they are what I am currently interested in. That could definitely change, but I know for sure that I do not want to do litigation (I'm not a fan of court rooms). I have considered retaking the LSAT and while I'm not opposed to doing it, it certainly isn't my first option either.


I want to caution you on law school then. The schools you have make BigLaw, the only place where you will likely do transactional work, extremely unlikely. If you miss out on BigLaw (very likely), your options are going to be DA/PD, where you will definitely have to enjoy a courtroom, or smaller firms that do litigation work like insurance defense, family law, criminal defense, personal injury, etc., where you will need to go to court.

Just be forewarned that getting a law degree does not really give you as many options as you might think. It is extremely unlikely you will reach your goals, and in the process burden yourself with six figures of non-dischargeable debt.

What would you like to do if you do not get BigLaw?

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Johann
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby Johann » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:39 am

I'd do Houston because it's cheapest. I had similar stats, if you focus, you'll be able to do well in school. But shit will be a grind for the next 5-10 years of your life.

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:31 am

JohannDeMann wrote:I'd do Houston because it's cheapest. I had similar stats, if you focus, you'll be able to do well in school. But shit will be a grind for the next 5-10 years of your life.


Between working two jobs during undergrad and adding hours to both jobs after, I've definitely done my fair share of 80+ hour work weeks. I'm willing and ready to put in the time it will take. My bf will be in med school at the same time, so we're both preparing to make school/work our lives.

I also submitted a request for reconsideration for Houston on scholarship. Just heard back that they are presenting it and I should know by early next week what they decide. I'm hoping that my other scholarships are good enough leverage to make them bump theirs up.

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kalvano
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby kalvano » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:47 am

ryan.laine94 wrote:but I know for sure that I do not want to do litigation (I'm not a fan of court rooms).



Do not, under any circumstance, go to Baylor.

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Rigo
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby Rigo » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:11 am

ryan.laine94 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:I'd do Houston because it's cheapest. I had similar stats, if you focus, you'll be able to do well in school. But shit will be a grind for the next 5-10 years of your life.

Between working two jobs during undergrad and adding hours to both jobs after, I've definitely done my fair share of 80+ hour work weeks. I'm willing and ready to put in the time it will take. My bf will be in med school at the same time, so we're both preparing to make school/work our lives.

No offense, but why can't you channel this drive and work ethic into the LSAT? I don't buy it.

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:28 am

Rigo wrote:
ryan.laine94 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:I'd do Houston because it's cheapest. I had similar stats, if you focus, you'll be able to do well in school. But shit will be a grind for the next 5-10 years of your life.

Between working two jobs during undergrad and adding hours to both jobs after, I've definitely done my fair share of 80+ hour work weeks. I'm willing and ready to put in the time it will take. My bf will be in med school at the same time, so we're both preparing to make school/work our lives.

No offense, but why can't you channel this drive and work ethic into the LSAT? I don't buy it.



You try working two jobs, as well as finishing senior year (all of which totaled to about 80-90 hours per week of just these three), doing all of your student orgs and other extracurriculars, as well doing outside volunteering, and managing to fit in friends, family, relationship, your dog, and sleep and add LSAT prep to that. I did take a class and I was testing higher than what I scored on the practice exams, I know that the Reading Comp is what got me. I didn't miss any on the games section.

Would you say that you think retaking and reapplying would be my best option?

areyn22
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby areyn22 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:49 am

ryan.laine94 wrote:Would you say that you think retaking and reapplying would be my best option?


This may be your best bet if you want more money out of the schools you're considering. It might be easier to focus on the LSAT during a gap year in which you're just working. I know there's no way I could have motivated myself to study for the LSAT on top of everything else I was doing in my senior year of college.

Based on where you want to work, ASU or Houston are your best bets. Of the two, I'd say ASU is the better choice. Maybe you can play some of these schools off each other and negotiate UH's offer up.

Best of luck to you!

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Socratease
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby Socratease » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:19 am

ryan.laine94 wrote:
Would you say that you think retaking and reapplying would be my best option?


Yes. I think you would be foolish not to retake, despite the perfect score in games. You will be able to make strides in LR.

I took the lsat senior year of college while working part-time and as an on-campus tutor; that was too much. I can't imagine pulling 90 hour weeks and trying to study for this test.

If you're going to do this law school thing, do it right. A better score = less $ in loans.

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby HennessyVSOP » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:58 am

JohannDeMann wrote:I'd do Houston because it's cheapest. I had similar stats, if you focus, you'll be able to do well in school. But shit will be a grind for the next 5-10 years of your life.


RC fail - Houston most expensive

Also OP, retake or don't go. Being $150k in debt (more like $175k after loan fees, tuition raises, interest accumulating, etc.) in Houston with vague intentions of "international law" is a bad idea.

If you do get a legal job, it will more likely be at a firm with less than 10 attorneys. You gotta be prepared to have a low salary and a small house. The area of your interest (the Southwest) doesn't have a big foothold in biglaw, which is where you'll find your international relations. And that's fine, but you gotta know that going into it.

Do you like immigration law (that's sort of international?) This might be a more likely scenario - learn Spanish, help folks immigrate and become naturalized. Probably a soon-to-be (if not already) booming field in Texas. This seems like a pretty worthy goal.

all in all, retake the LSAT
$150k debt (or more) would be a really shitty outcome

ryan.laine94
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ryan.laine94 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:21 pm

Do you like immigration law (that's sort of international?) This might be a more likely scenario - learn Spanish, help folks immigrate and become naturalized. Probably a soon-to-be (if not already) booming field in Texas. This seems like a pretty worthy goal.

all in all, retake the LSAT
$150k debt (or more) would be a really shitty outcome[/quote]

Yeah, when I say international law I mean it in a very broad way. Some people I've met think that immigration falls under this, some do not think that. When I say it I include immigration law, as well as other things like human rights and actual international law (like UN type of thing). I also like business law, and would prefer an international setting, but I would be happy without it too. Also these are just areas of interest, I'm not totally set on these (I think it would be stupid to do that myself) but I tried to take classes in undergrad so that I could get somewhat of an idea of what I want in the end and these were the ones I liked most. I just can't see myself going in as a defense attorney or prosecutor really, so outside of those I'm trying to keep my options open. My degree is in political science and my minor was business legal studies.

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tofuspeedstar
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby tofuspeedstar » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:23 pm

Don't go to Baylor..under any circumstances.

You'll be competing with students from UT for Houston big law. It's doable from UH, but, you'll need to finish in the top 5%. The fact you aren't from Texas will put you at a further disadvantage as well.

I don't know anything about ASU or Cincinnati.


But IMO, you're better off retaking, cracking 170+ and getting into UT or the T14.

ab9315
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ab9315 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:31 pm

Socratease wrote:
f you want the south, do not go to W&L. You are confining yourself to VA and maybe if you work your arse off and get incredibly lucky (notice the conjunction here), DC.


This isn't true at all! W&L's alumni network is gigantic and all over the place and will bend over backwards to get people jobs even if they don't know them. Being a W&L alum opens a lot of doors just because of how psyched other alums are to help with jobs. Can speak to this as an alum!

cavalier1138
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:53 pm

ab9315 wrote:
Socratease wrote:
f you want the south, do not go to W&L. You are confining yourself to VA and maybe if you work your arse off and get incredibly lucky (notice the conjunction here), DC.


This isn't true at all! W&L's alumni network is gigantic and all over the place and will bend over backwards to get people jobs even if they don't know them. Being a W&L alum opens a lot of doors just because of how psyched other alums are to help with jobs. Can speak to this as an alum!


Are you also speaking to it as an admissions officer?

Tone it down with the unnecessary necros for bad information.

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Pomeranian
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:58 pm

ab9315 wrote:
Socratease wrote:
f you want the south, do not go to W&L. You are confining yourself to VA and maybe if you work your arse off and get incredibly lucky (notice the conjunction here), DC.


This isn't true at all! W&L's alumni network is gigantic and all over the place and will bend over backwards to get people jobs even if they don't know them. Being a W&L alum opens a lot of doors just because of how psyched other alums are to help with jobs. Can speak to this as an alum!


Lol.

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AT9
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby AT9 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:15 pm

Move to AZ or TX to get in-state tuition, retake for more $, and go to ASU/Arizona or Houston respectively.

Edit: Preferably AZ so you can live with family and save money.

ab9315
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Re: UH vs. UC vs. W&L

Postby ab9315 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:46 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Are you also speaking to it as an admissions officer?



I'm speaking to it as a member of that community who has been placed in jobs far above my pay grade over other people simply because an alum would rather have another alum.. and the fact that this has happened to so many people in that network that it's clearly a huge part of job seeking. Just trying to provide some perspective that I didn't know if anyone knew about.




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