Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

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Npret

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:56 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think when you start parsing perceptions of lay prestige for places like Harvard and Yale you're getting into the weeds.

Also the alumni networks for all these places will be great. Ironically sometimes a slightly smaller network is stronger because the sense of being part of the same community is stronger. I'm sure for any given individual there are decent reasons to pick Harvard or Penn or Columbia over Yale, but the weakness of Yale's alumni network isn't one of them.

I can't help it Nony. I'm dumbstruck that anyone could conclude that fucking Yale has a weak alumni network compared to Harvard or Penn. I just can't wrap my head around this stuff the 0Ls are serving up. This is just one example.

Do you recall it being this bad the past few years?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:59 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:06 pm

Npret wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think when you start parsing perceptions of lay prestige for places like Harvard and Yale you're getting into the weeds.

Also the alumni networks for all these places will be great. Ironically sometimes a slightly smaller network is stronger because the sense of being part of the same community is stronger. I'm sure for any given individual there are decent reasons to pick Harvard or Penn or Columbia over Yale, but the weakness of Yale's alumni network isn't one of them.

I can't help it Nony. I'm dumbstruck that anyone could conclude that fucking Yale has a weak alumni network compared to Harvard or Penn. I just can't wrap my head around this stuff the 0Ls are serving up. This is just one example.

Do you recall it being this bad the past few years?

I think it's just the inevitable consequence of high-achieving type A people wanting to believe they can ensure the exact outcome they want if they just make *exactly* the right choices. I'm not much help because my outsider's perspective is "fuck, people, these schools are ALL amazing and you're going to have GREAT options at ANY of them." Like, if someone who gets a Dillard and gets into Yale takes the Dillard and doesn't get what they hope to out of it, that's on them, not the school.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think when you start parsing perceptions of lay prestige for places like Harvard and Yale you're getting into the weeds.

Also the alumni networks for all these places will be great. Ironically sometimes a slightly smaller network is stronger because the sense of being part of the same community is stronger. I'm sure for any given individual there are decent reasons to pick Harvard or Penn or Columbia over Yale, but the weakness of Yale's alumni network isn't one of them.


That's definitely true, and it's something I've sort of said from the onset that I think a whole myriad of other factors will outweigh something like that. I'm merely curious as to whether such things come into play in law, as they certainly factor in other industries.

The point about a smaller network is actually a good one that I hadn't entirely considered. I didn't mean to say or even imply that Yale has a weak alumni network. I don't even remotely think that. I was primarily questioning whether much larger schools (both in terms of law and *other* programs) or schools that place larger numbers of people into specific industries would enhance the strength of those networks relative to Yale. I'll go with two more specific examples.

If someone wants to work in corporate law focused on tech, maybe one is better served by the alumni network of Stanford than Yale. While Yale is prominent in all fields including comp sci, Stanford seems to be the more prominent one. That could largely be due to geographic proximity.

If someone wants to work in corporate law focused on real estate, maybe one is better served by the alumni network of CLS, UPenn, or Cornell whose alumni from other programs dominate these industries.

Maybe relative strength wasn't the way to phrase it... perhaps industry strength or targeted strength would be better. While my post may have not been as worded clearly as I intended apparently, I think some have read what they wanted to read out of it.

edit: Either way - I do appreciate your remarks on the relative strength of the alumni networks and size, as it is something I didn't initially consider.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:16 pm

That's fair enough, but it also requires having a target industry in mind, which I'm not sure the OP does. And I think that goes back to the idea that you're best off taking money elsewhere unless you're determined to get the kind of unicorn position best served by going to Yale (legal academia, very high prestige PI impact lit).

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 20170322 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:17 pm

I'm going to latch onto this thread, despite still waiting to hear from Yale.


If someone's goals are Clerking/Biglaw/Eventually an 8-6 job, and they prefer UVA, is the thread agreeing that UVA would be the right choice in this situation?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:19 pm

SweetTort wrote:I'm going to latch onto this thread, despite still waiting to hear from Yale.


If someone's goals are Clerking/Biglaw/Eventually an 8-6 job, and they prefer UVA, is the thread agreeing that UVA would be the right choice in this situation?


This thread won't agree on anything because there's a toxic mix of prestigewhore 0Ls and practicing attorneys.

That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby nimbus cloud » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:23 pm

jbagelboy wrote:That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.


Do not care about prestige. Have modest goals by T14 standards.

But my biggest fear with UVA is ending up in the bottom half or, worse, bottom third. That's almost half of the class. Assuming grades in law school are pretty random and hard work means very little, what do you do then?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:That's fair enough, but it also requires having a target industry in mind, which I'm not sure the OP does. And I think that goes back to the idea that you're best off taking money elsewhere unless you're determined to get the kind of unicorn position best served by going to Yale (legal academia, very high prestige PI impact lit).


Agreed on that part. I think my initial comment was just that towards the poster saying the goal is V20->lateral to a smaller firm being indisputably a better option wasn't probably the case. My gut was that their book of business will be far more important where they actually went.

I then sort of went into my own tangent wondering as to whether someone would perhaps be better served in this goal of building a book of business by aiming for a school that is particularly prominent in their target industry if they have one.

A lot of this was sort of for my own information for trying to better inform my own decision down the line. I was mainly curious if it's a totally ridiculous factor to consider. It appears that, while relevant, there are things that will greatly outweigh it in the longrun. I share your mindset that all of these schools are fantastic and it is what you make of your time there. I would also agree that significant money at T10>Yale for many and, perhaps, most incoming law students.

Also, apologies to other poster since I do think we kind of misunderstood each other, and I was probably a bit terse about it.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:29 pm

34iplaw wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:That's fair enough, but it also requires having a target industry in mind, which I'm not sure the OP does. And I think that goes back to the idea that you're best off taking money elsewhere unless you're determined to get the kind of unicorn position best served by going to Yale (legal academia, very high prestige PI impact lit).


Agreed on that part. I think my initial comment was just that towards the poster saying the goal is V20->lateral to a smaller firm being indisputably a better option wasn't probably the case. My gut was that their book of business will be far more important where they actually went.

I then sort of went into my own tangent wondering as to whether someone would perhaps be better served in this goal of building a book of business by aiming for a school that is particularly prominent in their target industry if they have one.

A lot of this was sort of for my own information for trying to better inform my own decision down the line. I was mainly curious if it's a totally ridiculous factor to consider. It appears that, while relevant, there are things that will greatly outweigh it in the longrun. I share your mindset that all of these schools are fantastic and it is what you make of your time there. I would also agree that significant money at T10>Yale for many and, perhaps, most incoming law students.

Also, apologies to other poster since I do think we kind of misunderstood each other, and I was probably a bit terse about it.

Oh, let me be clear - I think the idea that HYS is going to give you some kind of meaningful advantage over UVA in ultimately lateraling into a law firm partnership is silly. I agree there are way too many steps in between. But I'm also not on the firm track so didn't want to weigh in too directly.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby BoyJord » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:39 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Npret wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think when you start parsing perceptions of lay prestige for places like Harvard and Yale you're getting into the weeds.

Also the alumni networks for all these places will be great. Ironically sometimes a slightly smaller network is stronger because the sense of being part of the same community is stronger. I'm sure for any given individual there are decent reasons to pick Harvard or Penn or Columbia over Yale, but the weakness of Yale's alumni network isn't one of them.

I can't help it Nony. I'm dumbstruck that anyone could conclude that fucking Yale has a weak alumni network compared to Harvard or Penn. I just can't wrap my head around this stuff the 0Ls are serving up. This is just one example.

Do you recall it being this bad the past few years?

I think it's just the inevitable consequence of high-achieving type A people wanting to believe they can ensure the exact outcome they want if they just make *exactly* the right choices. I'm not much help because my outsider's perspective is "fuck, people, these schools are ALL amazing and you're going to have GREAT options at ANY of them." Like, if someone who gets a Dillard and gets into Yale takes the Dillard and doesn't get what they hope to out of it, that's on them, not the school.


+1

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:46 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
SweetTort wrote:I'm going to latch onto this thread, despite still waiting to hear from Yale.


If someone's goals are Clerking/Biglaw/Eventually an 8-6 job, and they prefer UVA, is the thread agreeing that UVA would be the right choice in this situation?


This thread won't agree on anything because there's a toxic mix of prestigewhore 0Ls and practicing attorneys.

That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.


Yes. Take the Dillard. Here's a point that often gets overlooked: without having to pay down massive debt you get to save and invest all that money. Think of how much farther ahead you will be financially if you can accumulate the money you would otherwise be paying toward your debt.

As for OP, I find it hard to justify an extra $250,000 or so of debt to go to Yale. But maybe OP has the money or some unusual dream goal that might make Yale the right choice. Hopefully OP will return and add more information.

Sorry for losing my patience here.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:50 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby curry1 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:53 pm

canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


"retake for a hamilton or don't go"

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby TAD » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:55 pm

canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 20170322 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:57 pm

canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


To be fair, Thomas has a sticker on his chambers door that says "Yale sucks".

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:58 pm

canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


Justices Alito and Thomas may very well have ended up as Justices Alito and Thomas even without going to YLS.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby curry1 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:00 pm

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


Justices Alito and Thomas may very well have ended up as Justices Alito and Thomas even without going to YLS.



I think you severely underestimate how much luck it takes to become a SCOTUS Justice (or any extremely high powered position) and are instead intuiting some extraordinary drive or ability to people who become SCOTUS justices. There are a whole lot of people who have worked extremely hard and have lots of shiny credentials who will never reach a high powered position.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:01 pm

TAD wrote:
canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Yeah I don't think you can use old SCOTUS justices as models for deciding where to go.

Also news flash: you are not going to end up on SCOTUS.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:03 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:05 pm

curry1 wrote:
Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


Justices Alito and Thomas may very well have ended up as Justices Alito and Thomas even without going to YLS.


I think you severely underestimate how much luck it takes to become a SCOTUS Justice (or any extremely high powered position) and are instead intuiting some extraordinary drive or ability to people who become SCOTUS justices. There are a whole lot of people who have worked extremely hard and have lots of shiny credentials who will never reach a high powered position.


??? What about my statement implied that? I'm very well aware that there is much more than innate talent and drive to end up in those positions. I also don't think YLS is the magic ingredient that led them to where they are. Everyone seems to ignore the self-selection that goes into people's law school decisions - does YLS get better outcomes because going to YLS makes you a better candidate for clerkships/the judiciary because of a difference in education/experience, or because a certain type of person with certain types of career aspirations are drawn to YLS? There are currently six other justices who did NOT go to YLS, so my statement was merely meant to point out that they very well could have ended up where they are without YLS on their resumes.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:05 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:09 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:That being said, I think it's fair to say UVa with a Dillard would be the right choice in that situation. You'll certainly get there a lot faster and less painfully.


Do not care about prestige. Have modest goals by T14 standards.

But my biggest fear with UVA is ending up in the bottom half or, worse, bottom third. That's almost half of the class. Assuming grades in law school are pretty random and hard work means very little, what do you do then?

I'm as happy to shoot down special snowflakes as anyone around here, but if you have the numbers for Harvard and Yale chances are you'll do just fine at UVA. And at schools like UVA, there really isn't a clear line about what constitutes median; you just need to get into that mushy middle that comprises the vast majority of the class and you'll be alright.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:16 pm

canafsa wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
TAD wrote:
canafsa wrote:I'm just glad that Justices Alito and Thomas didn't ask TLS for advice before enrolling at YLS :lol:


To be fair, tuition was prolly more affordable back then.

Yeah I don't think you can use old SCOTUS justices as models for deciding where to go.


Well, then in that case the new ones are all from Harvard.

And as someone pointed out somewhere earlier, one of Donald
Trump's attorneys graduated from Cooley. Gerry Spence when to the University of Wyoming. There are anecdotes upon anecdotes floating around if that's what you want to rely on.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:18 pm

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