Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

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canafsa

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:36 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Mullens » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:36 pm

TAD wrote:
canafsa wrote:
Mullens wrote:Why did you apply to law school and do you even want to be a lawyer?


Not necessarily wanting a 20 year career in big law =/= not wanting to be a lawyer


Think Mullens was referring to OP's not knowing career goals post law school and coming from finance background - Though still agree that one shouldn't characterize OP as not wanting to be a lawyer.


The OP has provided no indication that they want to be a lawyer. Even if it's Yale, people should only go to law school if they want to be a lawyer or have some defined career goal that they can only achieve by going to law school (legal academia).

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 20170322 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:37 pm

....tag.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:39 pm

canafsa wrote:My goal is to land at a V20 and eventually lateral for a partnership at a lower tier firm. If you think HYS won't help me land that V20 better than UVA, you're dreaming.


No one said HYS wouldn't give you a leg up over UVA for that, but Yale has a decidedly academic reputation (as mentioned). Also, that's a weird plan, and I really don't think that it's relevant to the main discussion here.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:07 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
canafsa wrote:My goal is to land at a V20 and eventually lateral for a partnership at a lower tier firm. If you think HYS won't help me land that V20 better than UVA, you're dreaming.


No one said HYS wouldn't give you a leg up over UVA for that, but Yale has a decidedly academic reputation (as mentioned). Also, that's a weird plan, and I really don't think that it's relevant to the main discussion here.


From what I've read, where you attend is going to be *far* less important than your book of business and connections at that point. In that event, I think schools with the strongest and biggest alumni networks will be of the most value. Granted, I think all of this is so far out that trying to ferret out which school is superior in this regard may be somewhat silly.

If we do...I think Yale is probably at a somewhat marked disadvantage in this regard over many other schools in the T14 due to their class sizes, relatively weak business program, etc. With the above in mind, my suspicion is that for a 'late career advantage' HLS>SLS>CLS/UPenn>NYU...etc. I'm stating this largely on gut feeling... it probably varies a great deal based on industry and target geography [CLS&UPenn followed by NYU/Cornell would probably be the highest in my list if one is interested in real estate law] Again, saying this all as a 0L.

Again... I don't think these would be marked advantages, but I don't think Yale is necessarily the best decision if your goal is to make partner by lateraling elsewhere.

@Poster: Unless you have been out of UG a long time, it seems unlikely, even if you have had about the best finance outcomes within reason, that you would have savings enough to bar you from all need-based aid to law schools from what I understand. Either way, it's probably worth looking into.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:10 pm

lol@V20

e.

lol @ V10


e.

lol@ V5
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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Legallylawyer2020 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:19 pm

Npret wrote:
canafsa wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
saf18hornet wrote:
RickyBunny wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
canafsa wrote:


Its one of the widest gulfs in employment outcomes between any two closely ranked USNWR schools, aside from the drop off to GULC and outside the T20. Not that us news has any value whatsoever. But Yale differs in kind from other top schools like Harvard and UVA in more measurable ways. This isn't to say OP should take Yale over UVA here or Yale over Harvard more generally--much of the same calculus applies to this decision as to UVA vs YLS, but the opportunity window gap is just wider.


Please explain this "gap" you speak of, because my interpretation of the most recent 2015 employment data doesn't say this... but maybe i don't understand your point above.

https://www.law.yale.edu/student-life/c ... employment
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 68/213 = 32%
Clerkship (Total): 78/213 = 37% Clerkship (Federal): 34%
**Yale Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 66%**

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2015employment.pdf
Big Law (Firms with 250+): 191/367 = 52%
Clerkship(Total): 69/367 = 19% Clerkship(Federal): 58/367 = 16%
**UVA Total Big Law + Clerkship(Federal) = 68%**


Look at the clerkship numbers alone. No one is arguing that Yale is a better choice for biglaw. The measurable difference is in more competitive areas, like federal clerkships.


I'll argue Yale will land you a better chance for a better job in big law


What better job in biglaw might that be? I know some firms feel that Yale grads are more academic than practical. You may be right but I think biglaw generally prefers the workaholic prestige and money chasers over the academics.


Couldn't agree more. One of my parents is the managing partner of a V5 law firm and told me not to even apply to Yale because Yale lawyers are useless when it comes to the practical realities of being a lawyer.

Now, as far as advice for this specific OP goes, I would say Yale may be the better option simply because s/he doesn't want Big Law and Yale is unparalleled when it comes to clerkship and other unicorn jobs for JDs.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:23 pm

I've been repeatedly misquoted above. I said that between any two comparably ranked schools by the commercial magazines, Yale and Harvard have the widest gulf in employment results, not Yale and UVA.

About 50% of Yale students will take a federal clerkship, and less than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. About 25% of HLS students will clerk, and more than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. To compare to other schools, something north of 20% of Chicago grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, 15-18% of CLS and NYU and UVA grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, ect. For most of the T14 except Georgetown and Yale (and maybe SLS), you have most students going into large firms and roughly a quarter of the class having the opportunity to clerk (which we have to take as a very rough proxy for opening other types of opportunities)--Georgetown because the school lacks the placement power and Yale because a critical mass of students can access other opportunities. The distinction between the outcomes and types of positions taken by Yale grads and the rest of the top schools (omitting SLS from the discussion for the moment) is thus wide. It's much wider than the distinction we could draw looking at both 9-month employment data (LST) and the more comprehensive employment numbers between other top schools.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:24 pm

canafsa wrote:My goal is to land at a V20 and eventually lateral for a partnership at a lower tier firm. If you think HYS won't help me land that V20 better than UVA, you're dreaming.


It won't, and I'm not dreaming. That's exactly the goal where you want to take the money. It's if you don't want to be stuck in the private sector where there's a realistic argument that it's worth paying more for certain schools.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby SeewhathappensLarry » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:32 pm

I'll echo most of what Jbagel said. OP, this really comes down to your goals and how debt-averse you are. I'm at UVA--there are fantastic opportunities, and people are going into super cool jobs after graduation.

But unless you are at the top of the class, then you may be excluded from some of the unicorn jobs that Yalies sometimes get, e.g., academia.

If academia is your goal, go to Yale. I don't know enough about prestigious PI to say one over the other, but I would guess Yale. If fed gov or big law, I don't see how spending 300k is worth going to Yale over UVA.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:32 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I've been repeatedly misquoted above. I said that between any two comparably ranked schools by the commercial magazines, Yale and Harvard have the widest gulf in employment results, not Yale and UVA.

About 50% of Yale students will take a federal clerkship, and less than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. About 25% of HLS students will clerk, and more than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. To compare to other schools, something north of 20% of Chicago grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, 15-18% of CLS and NYU and UVA grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, ect. For most of the T14 except Georgetown and Yale (and maybe SLS), you have most students going into large firms and roughly a quarter of the class having the opportunity to clerk (which we have to take as a very rough proxy for opening other types of opportunities)--Georgetown because the school lacks the placement power and Yale because a critical mass of students can access other opportunities. The distinction between the outcomes and types of positions taken by Yale grads and the rest of the top schools (omitting SLS from the discussion for the moment) is thus wide. It's much wider than the distinction we could draw looking at both 9-month employment data (LST) and the more comprehensive employment numbers between other top schools.


But Harvard and Yale have significantly different class sizes. For the class of 2015, 112 Harvard students did federal judicial clerkships and 78 Yale students did federal judicial clerkships. Yale reports that somewhere between 43% and 50ish% of the last few classes took/will take a judicial clerkship at some point. But in terms of raw numbers, that's not very different than the number of Harvard students that took/will take one, either immediately after graduation or a few years out, and how much of that is self selection vs. the other Harvard students wanting to clerk and not being able to?

Not arguing with you because I don't have a stake in the Yale vs. Harvard argument, just think your argument using percentages is misleading/overstating the actual "gulf in employment results"

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:46 pm

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I've been repeatedly misquoted above. I said that between any two comparably ranked schools by the commercial magazines, Yale and Harvard have the widest gulf in employment results, not Yale and UVA.

About 50% of Yale students will take a federal clerkship, and less than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. About 25% of HLS students will clerk, and more than half of the graduating class will wind up at a large firm. To compare to other schools, something north of 20% of Chicago grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, 15-18% of CLS and NYU and UVA grads will clerk, and most will be at large firms, ect. For most of the T14 except Georgetown and Yale (and maybe SLS), you have most students going into large firms and roughly a quarter of the class having the opportunity to clerk (which we have to take as a very rough proxy for opening other types of opportunities)--Georgetown because the school lacks the placement power and Yale because a critical mass of students can access other opportunities. The distinction between the outcomes and types of positions taken by Yale grads and the rest of the top schools (omitting SLS from the discussion for the moment) is thus wide. It's much wider than the distinction we could draw looking at both 9-month employment data (LST) and the more comprehensive employment numbers between other top schools.


But Harvard and Yale have significantly different class sizes. For the class of 2015, 112 Harvard students did federal judicial clerkships and 78 Yale students did federal judicial clerkships. Yale reports that somewhere between 43% and 50ish% of the last few classes took/will take a judicial clerkship at some point. But in terms of raw numbers, that's not very different than the number of Harvard students that took/will take one, either immediately after graduation or a few years out, and how much of that is self selection vs. the other Harvard students wanting to clerk and not being able to?

Not arguing with you because I don't have a stake in the Yale vs. Harvard argument, just think your argument using percentages is misleading/overstating the actual "gulf in employment results"


Why do absolute numbers matter more than percentages from the perspective of a student that will be competing to become part of the percentage. You could make the same argument that far more Georgetown grads are at firms than Stanford or Cornell grads, but that says nothing about placement power.

Harvard still clearly has the third best clerkship placement in the country (Chicago might be within the margin of error). Star students at HLS are the very top of the legal profession. But the character of jobs taken by the graduating class as a whole resembles other top schools more than it resembles Yale.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:56 pm

34iplaw wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
canafsa wrote:My goal is to land at a V20 and eventually lateral for a partnership at a lower tier firm. If you think HYS won't help me land that V20 better than UVA, you're dreaming.


No one said HYS wouldn't give you a leg up over UVA for that, but Yale has a decidedly academic reputation (as mentioned). Also, that's a weird plan, and I really don't think that it's relevant to the main discussion here.


From what I've read, where you attend is going to be *far* less important than your book of business and connections at that point. In that event, I think schools with the strongest and biggest alumni networks will be of the most value. Granted, I think all of this is so far out that trying to ferret out which school is superior in this regard may be somewhat silly.

If we do...I think Yale is probably at a somewhat marked disadvantage in this regard over many other schools in the T14 due to their class sizes, relatively weak business program, etc. With the above in mind, my suspicion is that for a 'late career advantage' HLS>SLS>CLS/UPenn>NYU...etc. I'm stating this largely on gut feeling... it probably varies a great deal based on industry and target geography [CLS&UPenn followed by NYU/Cornell would probably be the highest in my list if one is interested in real estate law] Again, saying this all as a 0L.

Again... I don't think these would be marked advantages, but I don't think Yale is necessarily the best decision if your goal is to make partner by lateraling elsewhere.

@Poster: Unless you have been out of UG a long time, it seems unlikely, even if you have had about the best finance outcomes within reason, that you would have savings enough to bar you from all need-based aid to law schools from what I understand. Either way, it's probably worth looking into.


Why do all these posters make assumptions about Harvard v Yale or Harvard v NYU or Harvard v Columbia based on what their gut tells them should be true?

They clearly know nothing about law firms or hiring. Where does this "gut" feeling come from? Why do they want to rely on it?

I'm guessing it comes from thinking Harvard is the most famous law school?

It's confusing to me because I thought people were becoming more educated about employment and debt over the past 5 years. I know people in this forum have spent time over the years trying to educate 0Ls about biglaw and repaying debt. What happened?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:01 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
canafsa wrote:My goal is to land at a V20 and eventually lateral for a partnership at a lower tier firm. If you think HYS won't help me land that V20 better than UVA, you're dreaming.


It won't, and I'm not dreaming. That's exactly the goal where you want to take the money. It's if you don't want to be stuck in the private sector where there's a realistic argument that it's worth paying more for certain schools.


Why do you think UVA can't get you into this V20 firm?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:11 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:17 pm

Npret wrote:Why do all these posters make assumptions about Harvard v Yale or Harvard v NYU or Harvard v Columbia based on what their gut tells them should be true?
They clearly know nothing about law firms or hiring. Where does this "gut" feeling come from? Why do they want to rely on it?

I'm guessing it comes from thinking Harvard is the most famous law school?

It's confusing to me because I thought people were becoming more educated about employment and debt over the past 5 years.


Almost mixed you up with the original poster of the Yale remark.

There's a reason I quite clearly stipulated about what I said based on gut feelings and qualified it with the fact I am a 0L. Granted, I am not a KJD. I am more than open to being corrected by someone that knows better. I actively try to seek this information.

All I was pointing out is that later in ones' career, I suspect, based on what I've read, that your book of business and network will be far more important in landing a partnership job than where you actually went to school. I'd say, based on what I've read, someone who went to Fordham with a bigger book of business is in a better place to land a partnership role than a person from Yale with a smaller book of business.

For that reason, my inclination is that one should possibly place some weight on the alumni network of both the law school and the university that houses it. I know that it impacts hiring and other business decisions, and, at the very least, the alumni network can serve as a foot in the door you might not otherwise have. Am I nuts for thinking that HLS, CLS, and UPenn should gain some added weight against Yale for someone trying to look that far down their career path in corporate law of some form? Personally, I think there are far too many variables for that to be the determining factor. It's just another factor to consider.

I'd really appreciate someone letting me know if these thoughts are completely off base by someone who has actually been working a while. If you know that I'm totally off base and the alumni network of your law school does not matter at all in the long run, I'm more than open to why that is not the case.
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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby lymenheimer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:18 pm

ITT: 0Ls pontificate on the intricacies of biglaw hiring.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:20 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:24 pm

What have those interactions been, and have you had similar interactions with UVA and other non-HYS grads?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:29 pm

canafsa wrote:
34iplaw wrote:
Npret wrote:Why do all these posters make assumptions about Harvard v Yale or Harvard v NYU or Harvard v Columbia based on what their gut tells them should be true?
They clearly know nothing about law firms or hiring. Where does this "gut" feeling come from? Why do they want to rely on it?

I'm guessing it comes from thinking Harvard is the most famous law school?

It's confusing to me because I thought people were becoming more educated about employment and debt over the past 5 years.


Almost mixed you up with the original poster of the Yale remark.

There's a reason I quite clearly stipulated about what I said based on gut feelings and qualified it with the fact I am a 0L. Granted, I am not a KJD. I am more than open to being corrected by someone that knows better. I actively try to seek this information.

All I was pointing out is that later in ones' career, I suspect, based on what I've read, that your book of business and network will be far more important in landing a partnership job than where you actually went to school. I'd say, based on what I've read, someone who went to Fordham with a bigger book of business is in a better place to land a partnership role than a person from Yale with a smaller book of business.

For that reason, my inclination is that one should possibly place some weight on the alumni network of both the law school and the university that houses it. I know that it impacts hiring and other business decisions, and, at the very least, the alumni network can serve as a foot in the door you might not otherwise have. Am I nuts for thinking that HLS, CLS, and UPenn should gain some added weight against Yale for someone trying to look that far down their career path in corporate law of some form? Personally, I think there are far too many variables for that to be the determining factor. It's just another factor to consider.

I'd really appreciate someone letting me know if these thoughts are completely off base by someone who has actually been working a while.



The fact of the matter is that there are NO long-term studies which will tell you the benefits of a T3 school over the course of a career. Judgement is inevitably therefore based upon conjecture. My interactions with T3 alum leads me to see the benefits that have been afforded to them by virtue of their law-school pedigree.

I'm sure you can find successful alums from almost every law school. You can also find unsuccessful alums from top schools.

Are you really saying: there is no data on this but this handful of people who went to these 3 schools are doing ok, therefore the school must be better for my career?

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:31 pm

34iplaw wrote:
Npret wrote:Why do all these posters make assumptions about Harvard v Yale or Harvard v NYU or Harvard v Columbia based on what their gut tells them should be true?
They clearly know nothing about law firms or hiring. Where does this "gut" feeling come from? Why do they want to rely on it?

I'm guessing it comes from thinking Harvard is the most famous law school?

It's confusing to me because I thought people were becoming more educated about employment and debt over the past 5 years.


Almost mixed you up with the original poster of the Yale remark.

There's a reason I quite clearly stipulated about what I said based on gut feelings and qualified it with the fact I am a 0L. Granted, I am not a KJD. I am more than open to being corrected by someone that knows better. I actively try to seek this information.

All I was pointing out is that later in ones' career, I suspect, based on what I've read, that your book of business and network will be far more important in landing a partnership job than where you actually went to school. I'd say, based on what I've read, someone who went to Fordham with a bigger book of business is in a better place to land a partnership role than a person from Yale with a smaller book of business.

For that reason, my inclination is that one should possibly place some weight on the alumni network of both the law school and the university that houses it. I know that it impacts hiring and other business decisions, and, at the very least, the alumni network can serve as a foot in the door you might not otherwise have. Am I nuts for thinking that HLS, CLS, and UPenn should gain some added weight against Yale for someone trying to look that far down their career path in corporate law of some form? Personally, I think there are far too many variables for that to be the determining factor. It's just another factor to consider.

I'd really appreciate someone letting me know if these thoughts are completely off base by someone who has actually been working a while. If you know that I'm totally off base and the alumni network of your law school does not matter at all in the long run, I'm more than open to why that is not the case.


Just FYI Yale is a famous law school.

Edit to add: I believe the alumni network from all top schools are solid. I don't think that should have any impact on your decision. You should look at cost and your goals.
Last edited by Npret on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby canafsa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:32 pm

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby 34iplaw » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Npret wrote:Just FYI Yale is a famous law school.


Not really sure the reason for the seemingly condescending tone rather than even trying to remotely address anything, so I'll stop responding to this chain rather soon I suspect. I don't really care to try to have a discussion when someone doesn't seem to have much interest in it.

I'm aware that Yale is a famous law school, and I am aware that it is ranked the best. That said, I don't think the name of Yale carries the weight Harvard does outside of lawyers and academics. Ultimately, there are a lot of career paths where you will be seeking business from non-academics and non-lawyers that are making the final call on who to hire.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:45 pm

I think when you start parsing perceptions of lay prestige for places like Harvard and Yale you're getting into the weeds.

Also the alumni networks for all these places will be great. Ironically sometimes a slightly smaller network is stronger because the sense of being part of the same community is stronger. I'm sure for any given individual there are decent reasons to pick Harvard or Penn or Columbia over Yale, but the weakness of Yale's alumni network isn't one of them.

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Re: Yale (sticker) vs. UVA (Dillard)

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:52 pm

canafsa wrote:
Npret wrote:
canafsa wrote:
34iplaw wrote:
Npret wrote:Why do all these posters make assumptions about Harvard v Yale or Harvard v NYU or Harvard v Columbia based on what their gut tells them should be true?
They clearly know nothing about law firms or hiring. Where does this "gut" feeling come from? Why do they want to rely on it?

I'm guessing it comes from thinking Harvard is the most famous law school?

It's confusing to me because I thought people were becoming more educated about employment and debt over the past 5 years.


Almost mixed you up with the original poster of the Yale remark.

There's a reason I quite clearly stipulated about what I said based on gut feelings and qualified it with the fact I am a 0L. Granted, I am not a KJD. I am more than open to being corrected by someone that knows better. I actively try to seek this information.

All I was pointing out is that later in ones' career, I suspect, based on what I've read, that your book of business and network will be far more important in landing a partnership job than where you actually went to school. I'd say, based on what I've read, someone who went to Fordham with a bigger book of business is in a better place to land a partnership role than a person from Yale with a smaller book of business.

For that reason, my inclination is that one should possibly place some weight on the alumni network of both the law school and the university that houses it. I know that it impacts hiring and other business decisions, and, at the very least, the alumni network can serve as a foot in the door you might not otherwise have. Am I nuts for thinking that HLS, CLS, and UPenn should gain some added weight against Yale for someone trying to look that far down their career path in corporate law of some form? Personally, I think there are far too many variables for that to be the determining factor. It's just another factor to consider.

I'd really appreciate someone letting me know if these thoughts are completely off base by someone who has actually been working a while.



The fact of the matter is that there are NO long-term studies which will tell you the benefits of a T3 school over the course of a career. Judgement is inevitably therefore based upon conjecture. My interactions with T3 alum leads me to see the benefits that have been afforded to them by virtue of their law-school pedigree.

I'm sure you can find successful alums from almost every law school. You can also find unsuccessful alums from top schools.

Are you really saying: there is no data on this but this handful of people who went to these 3 schools are doing ok, therefore the school must be better for my career?



Yes, given the lack of data regarding long-term outcomes, I will happily privilege anecdote and my own judgement. And I'm perfectly content with that for my own decision-making purposes. We live in the real world, not a laboratory. We act with imperfect data and subjective impressions.

My point was you need to do more research if you just want to go by anecdotes. I'm guessing most everyone will have a positive story for you to add to your collection of anecdotes.
I mean why would you use actual data when you can just talk to people who think their law school was the absolute best.



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