Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

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cyclawps
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:25 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TEM wrote:2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


How many of your classmates are getting federal clerkships (not judicial intern/externships) in Arizona?

Interning for a judge is always easier when you're in that state, but a clerkship is a different beast. There are (generally) no grade requirements to become a judicial intern, and the selection process is much less rigorous than the process for getting a clerkship, especially at the federal level. So while it sounds like ASU has, as expected, a strong connection to AZ state clerkships, I'm not seeing anything in your post to indicate that federal clerkships in the state are easier to get from the school.


Yeah, echo above. ASU's employment #'s are public [https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/files/multimedia/abadisclosures/employment-summary-2015_update.pdf]. 4/229 of the class of 2015 got a federal clerkship - that's 1.7%. A quick scan of past years shows that ASU averages 3-5 in any given year. OP - you can't bank on being top 2%.


You're right. And that special snowflake territory has me pausing mightily when confronted with this decision.

I have been focused on a federal clerkship because I saw it as a good path toward more prestigious government spots. The dream would be being a judge (state, or federal if I win the legal lottery), although I recognize that is not something to bank on. 200k worth of debt, even from Berkeley, is pretty scary. Even more so after hearing of their recent ranking outside the T-10.

WheninLaw
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:34 pm

cyclawps wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TEM wrote:2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


How many of your classmates are getting federal clerkships (not judicial intern/externships) in Arizona?

Interning for a judge is always easier when you're in that state, but a clerkship is a different beast. There are (generally) no grade requirements to become a judicial intern, and the selection process is much less rigorous than the process for getting a clerkship, especially at the federal level. So while it sounds like ASU has, as expected, a strong connection to AZ state clerkships, I'm not seeing anything in your post to indicate that federal clerkships in the state are easier to get from the school.


Yeah, echo above. ASU's employment #'s are public [https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/files/multimedia/abadisclosures/employment-summary-2015_update.pdf]. 4/229 of the class of 2015 got a federal clerkship - that's 1.7%. A quick scan of past years shows that ASU averages 3-5 in any given year. OP - you can't bank on being top 2%.


You're right. And that special snowflake territory has me pausing mightily when confronted with this decision.

I have been focused on a federal clerkship because I saw it as a good path toward more prestigious government spots. The dream would be being a judge (state, or federal if I win the legal lottery), although I recognize that is not something to bank on. 200k worth of debt, even from Berkeley, is pretty scary. Even more so after hearing of their recent ranking outside the T-10.


Of course, there is absolutely no reason you should not pursue your desired outcome (judge, government lawyer, whatever) and devote your time and resources to it, as long as you realize that most of the time, you'll end up on a different path. Berkeley absolutely gives you a better shot of getting there, but is it worth $200,000? Only you can know that.

TEM
Posts: 44
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby TEM » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:09 pm

cyclawps wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
TEM wrote:2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


How many of your classmates are getting federal clerkships (not judicial intern/externships) in Arizona?

Interning for a judge is always easier when you're in that state, but a clerkship is a different beast. There are (generally) no grade requirements to become a judicial intern, and the selection process is much less rigorous than the process for getting a clerkship, especially at the federal level. So while it sounds like ASU has, as expected, a strong connection to AZ state clerkships, I'm not seeing anything in your post to indicate that federal clerkships in the state are easier to get from the school.


Yeah, echo above. ASU's employment #'s are public [https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/files/multimedia/abadisclosures/employment-summary-2015_update.pdf]. 4/229 of the class of 2015 got a federal clerkship - that's 1.7%. A quick scan of past years shows that ASU averages 3-5 in any given year. OP - you can't bank on being top 2%.


You're right. And that special snowflake territory has me pausing mightily when confronted with this decision.

I have been focused on a federal clerkship because I saw it as a good path toward more prestigious government spots. The dream would be being a judge (state, or federal if I win the legal lottery), although I recognize that is not something to bank on. 200k worth of debt, even from Berkeley, is pretty scary. Even more so after hearing of their recent ranking outside the T-10.


What I was trying to get at in my post is that despite Fed clerkships being difficult to come by (regardless of where you attend), in my experience and those that I know (small sample size admittedly), people have had success leveraging an externship into a clerkship, even at the federal level. If going to a local school allows easier access to local fed internships/externships, that may be something to consider. Everyone else on here has discussed many important factors for OP to consider (difficulty generally with getting a clerkship etc.) but I thought it could be useful for OP to gain some insight into the potential (read: slim potential) that he/she may be able to leverage an internship/externship. Good luck OP, either way. :)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:22 pm

Also you shouldn't pay any attention to the USNWR ranking drop. It doesn't matter.

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Rigo
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rigo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:23 pm

I'm interested to hear your final decision here, OP. Let us know when you deposit and choose.

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rpupkin
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby rpupkin » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:38 pm

cyclawps wrote:
I have been focused on a federal clerkship because I saw it as a good path toward more prestigious government spots. The dream would be being a judge (state, or federal if I win the legal lottery), although I recognize that is not something to bank on. 200k worth of debt, even from Berkeley, is pretty scary. Even more so after hearing of their recent ranking outside the T-10.

You're right to be concerned about debt, but wrong to be concerned about the USNWR rankings. Since those rankings started in 1987, Berkeley has bounced up and down between #6 and #13. Penn and Michigan have similarly pitched around. These oscillations have nothing to do with your chances of finding a clerkship--or any other type of employment--after you graduate from a particular law school.

Here's an example of how silly all this is: University of Chicago had its best clerkship placement in 2008, when it was at its historic low in the USNWR rankings (tied for seventh, behind NYU and Berkeley). Now Chicago is fourth but doesn't place as well for clerkships at any level. The rankings are just meaningless.

WheninLaw
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby WheninLaw » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:00 pm

rpupkin wrote:
cyclawps wrote:
I have been focused on a federal clerkship because I saw it as a good path toward more prestigious government spots. The dream would be being a judge (state, or federal if I win the legal lottery), although I recognize that is not something to bank on. 200k worth of debt, even from Berkeley, is pretty scary. Even more so after hearing of their recent ranking outside the T-10.

You're right to be concerned about debt, but wrong to be concerned about the USNWR rankings. Since those rankings started in 1987, Berkeley has bounced up and down between #6 and #13. Penn and Michigan have similarly pitched around. These oscillations have nothing to do with your chances of finding a clerkship--or any other type of employment--after you graduate from a particular law school.

Here's an example of how silly all this is: University of Chicago had its best clerkship placement in 2008, when it was at its historic low in the USNWR rankings (tied for seventh, behind NYU and Berkeley). Now Chicago is fourth but doesn't place as well for clerkships at any level. The rankings are just meaningless.


I agree that placement is silly, but not sure the fact about Chicago is right. My understanding is the last couple years have been our best, and 2008 was a very poor year.

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cyclawps
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:51 pm

Rigo wrote:I'm interested to hear your final decision here, OP. Let us know when you deposit and choose.

Will do.




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