Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

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cyclawps
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Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:32 am

With the goal of a federal clerkship in AZ in mind, which school could give me the best shot at getting there? If Berkeley is the best school for that, how much will the LRAP help out with the sticker-debt (I'm planning on gov/PI)? With my numbers (166/3.8ish) I don't expect Berkeley to offer me any--no one on LSN with my numbers has received any scholarships in the past 3 years.

Berkeley ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content ... f-2015.pdf
ASU ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/f ... update.pdf

Rubbishdump
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rubbishdump » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:15 pm

Berkeley or retake

areyn22
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby areyn22 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:34 pm

cyclawps wrote:With the goal of a federal clerkship in AZ in mind, which school could give me the best shot at getting there? If Berkeley is the best school for that, how much will the LRAP help out with the sticker-debt (I'm planning on gov/PI)? With my numbers (166/3.8ish) I don't expect Berkeley to offer me any--no one on LSN with my numbers has received any scholarships in the past 3 years.

Berkeley ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content ... f-2015.pdf
ASU ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/f ... update.pdf


How debt-averse are you? Looks like Berkeley has the obvious advantage here in terms of federal clerkship placement, though I'm not sure where exactly all of the placements are (i.e. how likely you'd be to get one in AZ). That being said, it's far from likely at either school and taking on sticker price at Berkeley for a shot at a clerkship seems like a gamble when you'll be paying so much for your education.

Have you received an admissions decision from Berkeley? The advice you'll get from pretty much everyone on this forum is to retake if possible as a few more points combined with your good GPA could easily mean admission with $$$. That being said, ASU with $$$ (full ride or close to it?) really isn't a bad deal at all if you want to stay in AZ.

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cyclawps
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:22 pm

Rubbishdump wrote:Berkeley or retake

I don't have the option to retake given my partner's vocational track. We have to make a decision this year, and June is impossible.

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cyclawps
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:25 pm

areyn22 wrote:
cyclawps wrote:With the goal of a federal clerkship in AZ in mind, which school could give me the best shot at getting there? If Berkeley is the best school for that, how much will the LRAP help out with the sticker-debt (I'm planning on gov/PI)? With my numbers (166/3.8ish) I don't expect Berkeley to offer me any--no one on LSN with my numbers has received any scholarships in the past 3 years.

Berkeley ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content ... f-2015.pdf
ASU ABA Employment Report: https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/f ... update.pdf


How debt-averse are you? Looks like Berkeley has the obvious advantage here in terms of federal clerkship placement, though I'm not sure where exactly all of the placements are (i.e. how likely you'd be to get one in AZ). That being said, it's far from likely at either school and taking on sticker price at Berkeley for a shot at a clerkship seems like a gamble when you'll be paying so much for your education.

Have you received an admissions decision from Berkeley? The advice you'll get from pretty much everyone on this forum is to retake if possible as a few more points combined with your good GPA could easily mean admission with $$$. That being said, ASU with $$$ (full ride or close to it?) really isn't a bad deal at all if you want to stay in AZ.


I was accepted to Berkeley. I don't think I can retake at this life stage, given the temporal restrictions of my partners vocational goals. I'm averse to debt north of 190k. My thinking is that LRAP could handle 100k and then 90k would be doable. I don't, however, know if that's reasonable; it's just a guess.

Rubbishdump
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rubbishdump » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:26 pm

cyclawps wrote:
Rubbishdump wrote:Berkeley or retake

I don't have the option to retake given my partner's vocational track. We have to make a decision this year, and June is impossible.

If you're a betting man, then kill it at Berkeley, send out transfer apps, and try and up $$$ from Berk. Don't go to ASU

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Rigo
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rigo » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:12 pm

Why do you need a fed clerkship?
It's still hard to get one from Berkeley so it'd suck to take out sticker debt and not have that pan out.

What kind of PI/govt do you want?

Just to be clear, you want to settle in Arizona long term, correct? Will your partner be staying in AZ and you'd be LDR if you went to Berkekey?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:33 pm

Berkeley is going to give you a better overall shot at a federal clerkship, but AZ is the kind of place where top local students can get local clerkships (but then you have to be one of the top students). The biggest problem is focusing your clerkship search so narrowly - it is going to be very very very hard to ensure getting an AZ clerkship rather than any clerkship, period. If you really have to be in Arizona, you may need to consider state clerkships. Also, why is an AZ clerkship your goal? What do you want to do after? I feel like the best option is whatever will get you the post-clerkship job.

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Rigo
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rigo » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Fed clerk rate at Berkeley is 11% so uhhh yeah.

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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:39 pm

I'm also confused by the specific goal of an AZ federal clerkship. How many district judges sit in AZ? Students who want to clerk at the federal level usually send out dozens (or 50-100, depending on their dedication) of applications. Limiting yourself to a single district is like bilndfolding yourself before playing darts. You might still do well, but you're really hurting your own chances.

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Rigo
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rigo » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:45 pm

What about schools that split the difference like UCLA/USC? I'd think you'd get decent money there.
If you're intent on practicing in Arizona though I'd still probably say ASU but T20 would keep more options open without having to shell out sticker for them.

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kalvano
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby kalvano » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:53 pm

A federal clerkship is a 1-2 year job that you have a very small (relatively) chance of getting at all. You should be focused on the most return (job prospects) for the least amount of money with the assumption that you won't clerk.

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zot1
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby zot1 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:42 pm

UCI with money.

favabeansoup
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby favabeansoup » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:46 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I'm also confused by the specific goal of an AZ federal clerkship. How many district judges sit in AZ? Students who want to clerk at the federal level usually send out dozens (or 50-100, depending on their dedication) of applications. Limiting yourself to a single district is like bilndfolding yourself before playing darts. You might still do well, but you're really hurting your own chances.


^

If your main goal is to work in Arizona because of your partner or other life choices, and you'd only really like to have a fed clerk, go to ASU and accept that you highly likely won't get a fed clerk.

If your main goal is to get a fed clerkship, and you'd just prefer to live in AZ, go to Berkeley and be ok with likely not getting fed clerk in AZ, and also probably not getting one at all.

Also keep in mind for federal gov work the current hiring freeze, which has and will affect all law students going that route. State gov still open, but fed gov is going to be hard for people.

20170322
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby 20170322 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:50 pm

What are you career goals? Clerking is something you do for a year, not a lifetime.

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quiver
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby quiver » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:40 pm

SweetTort wrote:What are you career goals? Clerking is something you do for a year, not a lifetime.
kalvano wrote:A federal clerkship is a 1-2 year job that you have a very small (relatively) chance of getting at all. You should be focused on the most return (job prospects) for the least amount of money with the assumption that you won't clerk.
Agreed. You can't plan for a fed clerkship (anywhere) pre-law school. If the opportunity materializes, then it materializes.

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mjb447
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby mjb447 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:54 pm

Cosigning "plan for your long-term career, don't plan on an Arizona fed. clerkship." A quick count reveals that there are something like 50 or fewer federal judges (circuit, district, magistrate) with chambers in AZ. For lots of candidates 50 clerkship applications would be far too few to result in an offer even if they weren't geographically restricted and even if they otherwise had pretty strong apps.

ood's_brother
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby ood's_brother » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:35 am

favabeansoup wrote:Also keep in mind for federal gov work the current hiring freeze, which has and will affect all law students going that route. State gov still open, but fed gov is going to be hard for people.


To the best of my knowledge this affects the executive branch. It's also not a law. And many law students will be entering the workforce in 3 years. It's not a smart bet to change long term goals due to a rash-administrative decision.

But I agree with your breakdown of his options. I'd go with ASU.

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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cyclawps » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Rigo wrote:Why do you need a fed clerkship?
It's still hard to get one from Berkeley so it'd suck to take out sticker debt and not have that pan out.

What kind of PI/govt do you want?

Just to be clear, you want to settle in Arizona long term, correct? Will your partner be staying in AZ and you'd be LDR if you went to Berkekey?

We don't want to do LD. I'd like to work as a prosecutor or in immigration law.

TEM
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby TEM » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:28 pm

2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

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Rigo
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby Rigo » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:53 pm

cyclawps wrote:
Rigo wrote:Why do you need a fed clerkship?
It's still hard to get one from Berkeley so it'd suck to take out sticker debt and not have that pan out.

What kind of PI/govt do you want?

Just to be clear, you want to settle in Arizona long term, correct? Will your partner be staying in AZ and you'd be LDR if you went to Berkekey?

We don't want to do LD. I'd like to work as a prosecutor or in immigration law.

Unless Berkeley comes through with an insane financial aid package (they won't) I'd do ASU. You have pretty modest goals and it will be more important being in the market you wish to practice in.

WheninLaw
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby WheninLaw » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:55 pm

You have an almost zero chance of getting a federal clerkship in AZ, and I would not factor it into the decision-making calculus. If you're set on being a state prosecutor in AZ, then ASU is probably the answer. Otherwise, Berk.

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rpupkin
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:04 pm

WheninLaw wrote:You have an almost zero chance of getting a federal clerkship in AZ, and I would not factor it into the decision-making calculus. If you're set on being a state prosecutor in AZ, then ASU is probably the answer. Otherwise, Berk.

Agree with this.

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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:21 am

TEM wrote:2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


How many of your classmates are getting federal clerkships (not judicial intern/externships) in Arizona?

Interning for a judge is always easier when you're in that state, but a clerkship is a different beast. There are (generally) no grade requirements to become a judicial intern, and the selection process is much less rigorous than the process for getting a clerkship, especially at the federal level. So while it sounds like ASU has, as expected, a strong connection to AZ state clerkships, I'm not seeing anything in your post to indicate that federal clerkships in the state are easier to get from the school.

WheninLaw
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Re: Berkeley (Sticker) v. ASU ($$$) for Federal Clerkship in AZ

Postby WheninLaw » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:54 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
TEM wrote:2L at ASU here. Forgive my automatic bias, as Berkeley is obviously a great school. One thing to consider, though, when trying to get a clerkship is the role that making connections can help. Many of my classmates that I know secured a post-grad clerkship previously interned/externed for that judge during a summer or 2L year. You can't spend a semester with an AZ judge if you're not in AZ. If your goal is to truly get a fed clerkship in AZ, that may be something to consider. I recently got a Fed externship nearly entirely through connections I made 1L and 2L year. OCS was mad I didn't go through the traditional OCI route, but with decent grades and some hustle, your opportunities may increase (MAY). Good luck either way, sounds like you have some great law school options. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


How many of your classmates are getting federal clerkships (not judicial intern/externships) in Arizona?

Interning for a judge is always easier when you're in that state, but a clerkship is a different beast. There are (generally) no grade requirements to become a judicial intern, and the selection process is much less rigorous than the process for getting a clerkship, especially at the federal level. So while it sounds like ASU has, as expected, a strong connection to AZ state clerkships, I'm not seeing anything in your post to indicate that federal clerkships in the state are easier to get from the school.


Yeah, echo above. ASU's employment #'s are public [https://www.law.asu.edu/sites/default/files/multimedia/abadisclosures/employment-summary-2015_update.pdf]. 4/229 of the class of 2015 got a federal clerkship - that's 1.7%. A quick scan of past years shows that ASU averages 3-5 in any given year. OP - you can't bank on being top 2%.




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