Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What's my best option?

Harvard
16
12%
Columbia (Butler)
6
5%
NYU (Vanderbilt)
14
11%
Chicago (Rubenstein)
93
72%
 
Total votes: 129

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nimbus cloud

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby nimbus cloud » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:16 pm

One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.

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Po$eidon

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Po$eidon » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:21 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


Legally blonde y'all

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Pragmatic Gun

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:54 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


0L has a point, unless you really want to be a professor one day.

shadowfax

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby shadowfax » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:55 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
unpetitpacifiste wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
unpetitpacifiste wrote:I feel like this is getting very dramatic... Just to make my points clear, I realize that making partner at BigLaw is very difficult and I also realize that having a JD from Harvard is not gonna make it any easier than having one from Chicago. I am merely saying that the debt, which looks very significant to us right now, might not look that way 10 years down the road. So I think you should think twice about rejecting a far more prestigious school for the sake of money, especially if you have political ambitions. It's no-brainer that there are far more people in positions of power who got their degree from HLS. (Just to give you an example, out of the 100 current US senators, 8 of them have a HLS JD while only 1 has a Chicago JD). For me personally, the resume boost and the extensive alumni network are worth it. Also, as an international student, there is a chance that I might go back to my home country, where a HLS JD will carry me much further.


Do you not understand the contradictions in your own argument?

If everyone has a very low probability of making partner, then it's fucking idiotic to make financial calculations based on what life might look like when you are a partner 10 years down the road. But stellar example of the worst possible 0L mentality towards prestige.


Sorry I don't. I didn't assume that everyone is going to make partner. Even if you don't make partner, the salary of an eighth year associate, according to the Cravath scale, is $315,000, which still makes the $25k debt look not so significant. In addition, because we are giving advice to the OP, who seems very bright and likely to outperform his average classmates, I think it's reasonable to assume he is going to have an even more high-paying job. BTW, your attitude is not making me look bad. Can't you see that I am merely trying to help by advancing an unpopular view? if we can't have a civil conversation here, I don't know how we can blame the current toxic social media environment.

I will stop responding with a last message to the OP since I think I have made my point: Regardless of what you choose in the end, I think you are going to have a very bright future given your current achievements. But I will be very glad if you decide to join us at HLS, where I am sure you will be a great addition.


This is the best advertisement for staying the hell away from HLS that I've ever seen.


Lucky for you that will be an easy accomplishment.

Never try to argue with the debt vigilantes. They don't seem to realize that good preschools in their beloved NYC cost 15K. Private k-12 40k a year. Boarding school 50k+. Any reasonable undergrad like say Fordham for instance (whose law school they scoff at) 65k. Ivy's north of that. But law school lets draw the line there. To the mattresses.

None of the op's choices are bad. Pretty much the only reason they offer these incredible honors is to talk you out of going to HYS. These are not humanitarian awards.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:58 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:
nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


0L has a point, unless you really want to be a professor one day.


Legal education hiring market's changed so much recently that I wouldn't bother with this disclaimer unless you already have a ph.d

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Pragmatic Gun

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:00 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Lucky for you that will be an easy accomplishment.

Never try to argue with the debt vigilantes. They don't seem to realize that good preschools in their beloved NYC cost 15K. Private k-12 40k a year. Boarding school 50k+. Any reasonable undergrad like say Fordham for instance (whose law school they scoff at) 65k. Ivy's north of that.
But law school lets draw the line there. To the mattresses.

None of the op's choices are bad. Pretty much the only reason they offer these incredible honors is to talk you out of going to HYS. These are not humanitarian awards.


I don't understand what this has to do with choosing the other law schools over Harvard.

cavalier1138

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:50 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
Lucky for you that will be an easy accomplishment.

Never try to argue with the debt vigilantes. They don't seem to realize that good preschools in their beloved NYC cost 15K. Private k-12 40k a year. Boarding school 50k+. Any reasonable undergrad like say Fordham for instance (whose law school they scoff at) 65k. Ivy's north of that.
But law school lets draw the line there. To the mattresses.

None of the op's choices are bad. Pretty much the only reason they offer these incredible honors is to talk you out of going to HYS. These are not humanitarian awards.


I don't understand what this has to do with choosing the other law schools over Harvard.


Don't try to understand it. Just ignore him and be glad you'll never have to suffer through a class with him.

Npret

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Npret » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:50 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:
shadowfax wrote:
Lucky for you that will be an easy accomplishment.

Never try to argue with the debt vigilantes. They don't seem to realize that good preschools in their beloved NYC cost 15K. Private k-12 40k a year. Boarding school 50k+. Any reasonable undergrad like say Fordham for instance (whose law school they scoff at) 65k. Ivy's north of that.
But law school lets draw the line there. To the mattresses.

None of the op's choices are bad. Pretty much the only reason they offer these incredible honors is to talk you out of going to HYS. These are not humanitarian awards.


I don't understand what this has to do with choosing the other law schools over Harvard.


Some of us went to those schools. We know how much they cost. Your estimates are low.

We also understand money and debt and not borrowing $200,000 to get something you can obtain for significantly less or even free (as a result of your own hard work and achievements.) It literally does not compute in my brain.

If Harvard is your dream school and you want to mortgage your future for your dream, just say that. Don't try to rationalize it with some nebulous, assumed benefit to your not-even-started career.
Last edited by Npret on Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Po$eidon

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Po$eidon » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:48 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


Every word of this is true. Harvard's lay prestige (and, as a result, its ego) is just so huge. It's why people take Harvard. But it's also not really deserved

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Pragmatic Gun

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Is it well known that Harvard is more numbers oriented while Stanford and Yale actually demands decent softs in addition to outstanding numbers?

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:04 am

Pragmatic Gun wrote:Is it well known that Harvard is more numbers oriented while Stanford and Yale actually demands decent softs in addition to outstanding numbers?

Generally, that is the distinction. HLS is inevitably going to be more about numbers since they have a huge class and most people, if given the opportunity, will choose Stanford and Yale over HLS.

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zhenders

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby zhenders » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:49 am

Npret wrote:If Harvard is your dream school and you want to mortgage your future for your dream, just say that. Don't try to rationalize it with some nebulous, assumed benefit to your not-even-started career.


+100

Look. This entire thread comes down to nothing more than the above. A shit ton of people are really hung up on the Harvard brand and it being a dream to go to HLS. If that's you -- if you decide it's valuable enough to be able feel the feeling of being a Harvard Law student, then just say so and enroll. This thread logically should have just been over at Rubenstein. If you have non-logic-based reasons for wanting H instead, then just stop fooling yourself and be done with it. It's shitty and irresponsible to others to pretend there's a good argument for choosing H in this case; it's like some "teach the controversy" evolution vs. 6,000-year-old-Earth bullshit. Stop pretending you're using your brain to make choices.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby shadowfax » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:47 am

Pragmatic Gun wrote:Is it well known that Harvard is more numbers oriented while Stanford and Yale actually demands decent softs in addition to outstanding numbers?


True for Stanford not for Yale. Yale has higher numbers and a slightly less diverse student body than Harvard.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:49 am

shadowfax wrote:
Pragmatic Gun wrote:Is it well known that Harvard is more numbers oriented while Stanford and Yale actually demands decent softs in addition to outstanding numbers?


True for Stanford not for Yale. Yale has higher numbers and a slightly less diverse student body than Harvard.


JFC.

I'm starting to think you don't actually go to Harvard, because most people I've met from that school are relatively normal.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby shadowfax » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:51 am

I don't go to Harvard I went to Harvard. And these are simply numbers that are readily verifiable from the current 509's.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:01 pm

shadowfax wrote:I don't go to Harvard I went to Harvard. And these are simply numbers that are readily verifiable from the current 509's.


...Ted Cruz? Is this what you're doing after the failed campaign?

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:26 pm

shadowfax wrote:
Pragmatic Gun wrote:Is it well known that Harvard is more numbers oriented while Stanford and Yale actually demands decent softs in addition to outstanding numbers?


True for Stanford not for Yale. Yale has higher numbers and a slightly less diverse student body than Harvard.

"decent softs" and "diversity" don't have to be the same thing.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby jt716 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:19 pm

Sorry to revive a thread that got snarky but making basically this exact decision and don't want to start a new discussion. I didn't apply to UChicago (so looking at Harvard v. Columbia Butler v. NYU Vanderbilt). I am not at all interested in Biglaw-- I want to do a clerkship and then PI, and ultimately end up in the judiciary. If I'd be paying half sticker at Harvard, does that change the calculus?

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby gargleblaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:32 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


Even if you were one of the 9 people with a need based fully?

http://hls.harvard.edu/content/uploads/ ... Report.pdf

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby curry1 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:38 pm

gargleblaster wrote:
nimbus cloud wrote:One thing that is constantly reinforced in a lot of these threads is that Harvard Law has unbelievable lay prestige. It's like a cult. There is no way its outcomes justify the price that many people are willing to pay. Replace Harvard with Generic Law School and compare its numbers with Chicago's and you will never be able to say, with a straight face, that it is worth 200k more.

I mean, Yale, maybe (and even then). But Harvard's outcomes are just not that impressive.

OP: 0L here. I would take Ruby over any possible law school option, including Harvard with the highest need-based aid.


Even if you were one of the 9 people with a need based fully?

http://hls.harvard.edu/content/uploads/ ... Report.pdf



Those people are presumably pursuing jd/phds or have some special arrangement.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:41 pm

For what it's worth, $15k/year (the ruby stipend) is probably the dollar amount id say H vs Chi is a push.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

Postby RSN » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:00 am

jt716 wrote:Sorry to revive a thread that got snarky but making basically this exact decision and don't want to start a new discussion. I didn't apply to UChicago (so looking at Harvard v. Columbia Butler v. NYU Vanderbilt). I am not at all interested in Biglaw-- I want to do a clerkship and then PI, and ultimately end up in the judiciary. If I'd be paying half sticker at Harvard, does that change the calculus?


I'd probably recommend starting your own thread and putting your financial situation prominently in your OP. That said, I'd take the Vanderbilt pretty easily in your situation, unless you have a serious problem with NYU.



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