Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What's my best option?

Harvard
16
13%
Columbia (Butler)
6
5%
NYU (Vanderbilt)
13
10%
Chicago (Rubenstein)
93
73%
 
Total votes: 128

curry1

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby curry1 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:30 pm

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
canafsa wrote:The rudeness and anger of the pro-scholarship crowd is starting to rub me like its composed of a bunch of bitter T3 rejects. I'm leaning towards the money and I still find you a repellent lot. There is nothing wrong with exploring alternative options and examining anecdotes. We aren't idiots and we aren't taking it as gospel.


wow you're incredibly condescending on pretty much every thread you post on. especially "bitter T3 rejects" like could you be more pretentious?



This is the person who tore me down for claiming that HYP people get a boost in admissions to Y (based off of the "intuition" that it's absurd to think that 1/3d of the most numerically qualified candidates would come from three UG schools, particularly as UG admissions are subjective and only loosely meritocratic). Y/other elite schools would never openly admit that they engage in elitism with respect to UG schools, just as there aren't objective studies of the long-term career value of a HYS degree. So we have to rely on supposition and inference based on available data. And she/he is now relying on anecdotes from uber-successful HYS grads to make a decision, lol.

canafsa

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby canafsa » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:32 pm

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Last edited by canafsa on Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bearlyalive

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Bearlyalive » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:35 pm

canafsa wrote:The rudeness and anger of the pro-scholarship crowd is starting to rub me like its composed of a bunch of T3 rejects. I'm leaning towards the money and I still find you a repellent lot. There is nothing wrong with exploring alternative options and examining anecdotes. We aren't idiots and we aren't taking it as gospel.


Hamilton fellow here. The pro-scholarship crowd has been right on every point. Anecdotes are not helpful unless you also gather them from the people who took the money. We aren't kidding when we say that graduating with debt is actually far more restrictive on your career opportunities than having NYU on your resume rather than H.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby canafsa » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:41 pm

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Last edited by canafsa on Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Npret

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Npret » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:55 pm

canafsa wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:The thing is that most of the pro-scholarship crowd have had this discussion many many times before. It gets a little frustrating.


Then take a step back and don't comment. Because, and I'm telling you as someone trying to make the decision myself, it's not constructive nor convincing, and severely undermines the value of asking in a medium like TLS. Shutting down diverse perspective is mean-spirited. We are all perfectly capable of determining which information we wish to privilege over others. We wouldn't be at this point making this kind of decision if we weren't.

Focus on offering points of view instead of rudely tearing down others.

It isn't rude when a person comments about the declining quality of the faculty at Columbia to tell them they are wrong and that if they don't want the scholarship someone else will happily take it.

I honestly don't care which anecdotes you chose to "privilege" in your 0L wisdom. It's your life and your debt. All I can do is share my experiences and the reality that I have not seen Harvard over NYU or Columbia make a difference in anyone's biglaw career. You don't want to believe that's true. Fine. Keep finding people who confirm your belief and enjoy paying thousands of dollars a month to the government for a few years instead of building up your future.

Getting into Harvard isn't like winning a nobel prize: hundreds of people get accepted every year(931 last year) and a substantial chunk (39.6% or 361) of them don't attend. Harvards yield is 60.4% so it's inaccurate to assume that everyone attends even if it seems like they do because of Harvards massive class size.

shadowfax

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby shadowfax » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Lies. Damn lies. Statistics. The low yield rate is meaningless and proves nothing at all. The only places the others go are Yale Stanford or named scholarships. Hence this thread.

cavalier1138

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:27 pm

shadowfax wrote:Lies. Damn lies. Statistics. The low yield rate is meaningless and proves nothing at all. The only places the others go are Yale Stanford or named scholarships. Hence this thread.


Again, I'm really desperate to know what caviar tastes like, and I think you're the only one who could adequately describe it. Please help me.

I imagine there are plenty of Harvard admits who think that a substantial scholarship elsewhere is worth it, since $300k is a lot of money to pay back. And I'm sure there are plenty of Harvard admits whose parents throw $300k in the trash because they don't like how crinkly the bills are. What I don't imagine is that any Harvard graduates have better biglaw opportunities than graduates from CCNP, and you still haven't even provided a hint of an argument to the contrary.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby shadowfax » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:39 pm

Not keen on fish eggs. But it is 75 degrees in NYC and I am playing golf in February. So I will shut up.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Dcc617 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:36 pm

canafsa wrote:The rudeness and anger of the pro-scholarship crowd is starting to rub me like its composed of a bunch of bitter T3 rejects. I'm leaning towards the money and I still find you a repellent lot. There is nothing wrong with exploring alternative options and examining anecdotes. We aren't idiots and we aren't taking it as gospel.


Please don't come to Harvard.

Also, I totally would not be here without the GI bill. I'd have taken the highest school that gave me a full ride. Harvard (or Stanford or Yale) is almost certainly not 150K+ more valuable than CCN. That doesn't even sound plausible.

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Postby bloomsday » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:40 pm

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Last edited by bloomsday on Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ExcitedKid

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby ExcitedKid » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:12 pm

If I may....

May we compare Harvard to T7-14 please?
Got into Harvard. Got into CCN... How far down the T7-14 should I take any money offered? And how high do you think they would need to go?

goldenbear2020

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby goldenbear2020 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:26 pm

Npret wrote:Getting into Harvard isn't like winning a nobel prize: hundreds of people get accepted every year(931 last year) and a substantial chunk (39.6% or 361) of them don't attend. Harvards yield is 60.4% so it's inaccurate to assume that everyone attends even if it seems like they do because of Harvards massive class size.

If you take out the students H loses to YS, they probably have an 85-90% yield against the rest of the field.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:07 pm

ExcitedKid wrote:If I may....

May we compare Harvard to T7-14 please?
Got into Harvard. Got into CCN... How far down the T7-14 should I take any money offered? And how high do you think they would need to go?


Depends on the money across the board. I doubt you're looking at sticker everywhere, so you have a few months to negotiate for good scholarships. In a perfect vacuum where everyone pays sticker everywhere, go to Harvard. But that isn't your situation, and it's impossible to give a good answer without some idea of what scholarships are being offered and which schools are offering them.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby ExcitedKid » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:15 pm

ExcitedKid wrote:
If I may....

May we compare Harvard to T7-14 please?
Got into Harvard. Got into CCN... How far down the T7-14 should I take any money offered? And how high do you think they would need to go?


Depends on the money across the board. I doubt you're looking at sticker everywhere, so you have a few months to negotiate for good scholarships. In a perfect vacuum where everyone pays sticker everywhere, go to Harvard. But that isn't your situation, and it's impossible to give a good answer without some idea of what scholarships are being offered and which schools are offering them.


Since I haven't yet gotten financial aid yet but I am only comparing Harvard to lower T14s... Let's try this.

Mostly sticker at Harvard.
1/2 ride at Duke
Full ride at Georgetown.
?

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BoyJord

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby BoyJord » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:20 pm

can OP just make a poll so we can stop reading the incredibly antagonistic comments and move on with our lives?

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quiver

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby quiver » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:24 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm mostly confused because I don't think I've said anything to you that could be construed as snarky. Shadowfax, maybe. It's just that when people argue that you're overvaluing prestige and then you talk about T3 rejects it seems like you might be confirming what they say.

Yeah, everything has mainly been directed at Shadowfax, who has, frankly, been a bit of a jackass. We may have pushed back on some of your points, but I don't think anyone was being rude to you (until your latest batch of comments). In any case, I think you should take the money.

shadowfax

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby shadowfax » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:03 pm

My theory is that everyone is a prestige whore using the term bandied about here. Personally I think it is just the free market at work. The only difference is where you draw the line. What percentage of law students who are accepted at Columbia and NYU with everything else being equal choose Columbia? I think it is 90 percent or higher but have no proof of that. Just a hunch. Happy to be shown wrong.

Shot 72 first time out. Great day in the Big Apple.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Npret » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:07 pm

goldenbear2020 wrote:
Npret wrote:Getting into Harvard isn't like winning a nobel prize: hundreds of people get accepted every year(931 last year) and a substantial chunk (39.6% or 361) of them don't attend. Harvards yield is 60.4% so it's inaccurate to assume that everyone attends even if it seems like they do because of Harvards massive class size.

If you take out the students H loses to YS, they probably have an 85-90% yield against the rest of the field.


Maybe, I have no idea but even Yale only gets a 78% yield. My only point was that a significant number of people choose not to go to Harvard after getting admitted. It's fairly common.

I am very happy to rebrand the TLS created designations as YS HCCN
Last edited by Npret on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:07 pm

soj wrote:
shadowfax wrote:As far as I can tell the OP and I are the only ones communicating on this thread that have actual experience in the situation the OP faces. The rest of you are commenting, as well you might, on something you know little about and on a situation you will never be presented with.

No. Not only did I face and make the same decision, I have the benefit of actual years of experience as a lawyer.


^

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:11 pm

canafsa wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:The thing is that most of the pro-scholarship crowd have had this discussion many many times before. It gets a little frustrating.


Then take a step back and don't comment. Because, and I'm telling you as someone trying to make the decision myself, it's not constructive nor convincing, and severely undermines the value of asking in a medium like TLS. Shutting down diverse perspective is mean-spirited. We are all perfectly capable of determining which information we wish to privilege over others. We wouldn't be at this point making this kind of decision if we weren't.

Focus on offering points of view instead of rudely tearing down others.


Who is doing this? 0L opinions with anecdotes from friends are less valuable than practicing attorneys, obviously. Beyond that, no one is shouting down alternative opinions. We'ce debated these questions many times before and will continue to do so. A couple people always come in and say silly things about signaling and prestige, which has adds nothing to the conversation. That doesn't mean we haven't articulated respectful and reasonable responses to questions and commentary.

And for what it's worth, you're quite wrong, many people here have faces this choice.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:12 pm

elevin wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
elevin wrote:Hello, OP here. You guys are really an angry bunch lol. I'm certainly leaning debt-free NYU. I don't know if debt-free Columbia would be better, it has the Ivy prestige but from what I hear the quality of professors/lifestyle/classes there is dropping.

Gosh I hope this is trolling.

And it's true that I never had these choices for law school, but having been practicing for 5 years makes clear how myopic this kind of argument is.


Snarky.

What's wrong with my statement? That's just the review I got from three Class of 2016 Columbia grads who work at the firm I'm at.


They are wrong. Happy to discuss at greater length.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:50 pm

shadowfax wrote:My theory is that everyone is a prestige whore using the term bandied about here. Personally I think it is just the free market at work. The only difference is where you draw the line. What percentage of law students who are accepted at Columbia and NYU with everything else being equal choose Columbia? I think it is 90 percent or higher but have no proof of that. Just a hunch. Happy to be shown wrong.

Shot 72 first time out. Great day in the Big Apple.

Actually I think a lot of people take for PI or just general culture. But yet again, going for prestige is fine when everything else is truly equal. That's not the issue here. The issue is how much are you willing to pay extra for prestige.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Rigo » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:00 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
shadowfax wrote:My theory is that everyone is a prestige whore using the term bandied about here. Personally I think it is just the free market at work. The only difference is where you draw the line. What percentage of law students who are accepted at Columbia and NYU with everything else being equal choose Columbia? I think it is 90 percent or higher but have no proof of that. Just a hunch. Happy to be shown wrong.
Shot 72 first time out. Great day in the Big Apple.

Actually I think a lot of people take for PI or just general culture. But yet again, going for prestige is fine when everything else is truly equal. That's not the issue here. The issue is how much are you willing to pay extra for prestige.

Yeah Greenwich Village > Morningside Heights, and I got the sense that the PI community is much stronger at NYU whereas Columbia is way more corporate focused. Obviously you can do great PI from Columbia and they have a strong LRAP but the PI ~community~ felt like a huge pillar of NYU Law.
Idk I just got a better feeling at NYU. 0L but there are definitely both tangible and intangible reasons for picking NYU over Columbia.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Npret » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:10 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
shadowfax wrote:My theory is that everyone is a prestige whore using the term bandied about here. Personally I think it is just the free market at work. The only difference is where you draw the line. What percentage of law students who are accepted at Columbia and NYU with everything else being equal choose Columbia? I think it is 90 percent or higher but have no proof of that. Just a hunch. Happy to be shown wrong.

Shot 72 first time out. Great day in the Big Apple.

Actually I think a lot of people take for PI or just general culture. But yet again, going for prestige is fine when everything else is truly equal. That's not the issue here. The issue is how much are you willing to pay extra for prestige.


The issue is also that Harvard's lay prestige over Columbia doesn't translate into materially different career outcomes no matter how much people wish it were true. Half of Harvard's class ends up in the biglaw grind and most of them are in NYC.

I do think there needs to be a redo of the school designations now that sticker is over $300,000 at repayment from Harvard.
I'm going to keep pushing the "YS" "HCCN" divisions because the old way is misleading.

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Re: Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt)

Postby Nebby » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:06 am

My cousin Fred from Jacksonville heard Harvard is a good school and didn't know what Columbia was. Needless to say this is proof Harvard is the right choice for me



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