Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

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AtSomePointItMatters

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Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby AtSomePointItMatters » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:07 pm

We don't need to rehash the classic debates between these groups of schools, and I'm well aware of the placement statistics. I'm wondering how things look down the line, everything else being equal. That is, what is the true difference moving forward for those who graduated from the former group vs. those who graduated from the latter if the folks ended up with comparable employment outcomes upon graduation. I realize that there is a prestige gap here, but will there be a tangible, functional difference for Texas->V100->? vs. Duke->V100->?, for example, assuming such people have the accompanying resumes you would expect and nothing additional? Are there doors that will be closed for a top third Vandy alum exiting BigLaw (or taking an additional step after that) that will be open for a just below median Duke alum in the same position?

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:14 pm

I'm not sure I understand your question. The whole point of the tier distinction is that it's harder to get the initial job outcome from the lower-tier school in the first place. The lateral prospects for Duke-to-V100 vs. Vandy-V100 might not be that different, but it's a bad comparison, because the Vandy student has a lower chance of getting that outcome.

But it all depends on what kind of lateral jump you would be making. If you were trying to go to a high-level government job or a clerkship, then your school name might still carry some weight. Or it might not, depending on the region you're trying to go to. I know you want some generic answer along the lines of "Your school name does/doesn't matter after 3-5 years at your job," but that answer is dependent on way too many variables.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby AtSomePointItMatters » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:17 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your question. The whole point of the tier distinction is that it's harder to get the initial job outcome from the lower-tier school in the first place. The lateral prospects for Duke-to-V100 vs. Vandy-V100 might not be that different, but it's a bad comparison, because the Vandy student has a lower chance of getting that outcome.

But it all depends on what kind of lateral jump you would be making. If you were trying to go to a high-level government job or a clerkship, then your school name might still carry some weight. Or it might not, depending on the region you're trying to go to. I know you want some generic answer along the lines of "Your school name does/doesn't matter after 3-5 years at your job," but that answer is dependent on way too many variables.


Oh no, not at all. I just want an honest answer, and my personal thoughts are that it will still matter at that point. I'm just curious to hear from others, too. My point in comparing top third Vandy and just below median Duke is that they're likely able to/will get a similar initial job, assuming similar goals.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby Npret » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:20 pm

AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your question. The whole point of the tier distinction is that it's harder to get the initial job outcome from the lower-tier school in the first place. The lateral prospects for Duke-to-V100 vs. Vandy-V100 might not be that different, but it's a bad comparison, because the Vandy student has a lower chance of getting that outcome.

But it all depends on what kind of lateral jump you would be making. If you were trying to go to a high-level government job or a clerkship, then your school name might still carry some weight. Or it might not, depending on the region you're trying to go to. I know you want some generic answer along the lines of "Your school name does/doesn't matter after 3-5 years at your job," but that answer is dependent on way too many variables.


Oh no, not at all. I just want an honest answer, and my personal thoughts are that it will still matter at that point. I'm just curious to hear from others, too. My point in comparing top third Vandy and just below median Duke is that they're likely able to/will get a similar initial job, assuming similar goals.

To the best of my knowledge there is no data on this. If you find some, please post.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby AtSomePointItMatters » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:22 pm

Npret wrote:
AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your question. The whole point of the tier distinction is that it's harder to get the initial job outcome from the lower-tier school in the first place. The lateral prospects for Duke-to-V100 vs. Vandy-V100 might not be that different, but it's a bad comparison, because the Vandy student has a lower chance of getting that outcome.

But it all depends on what kind of lateral jump you would be making. If you were trying to go to a high-level government job or a clerkship, then your school name might still carry some weight. Or it might not, depending on the region you're trying to go to. I know you want some generic answer along the lines of "Your school name does/doesn't matter after 3-5 years at your job," but that answer is dependent on way too many variables.


Oh no, not at all. I just want an honest answer, and my personal thoughts are that it will still matter at that point. I'm just curious to hear from others, too. My point in comparing top third Vandy and just below median Duke is that they're likely able to/will get a similar initial job, assuming similar goals.

To the best of my knowledge there is no data on this. If you find some, please post.


I'm going by Big Law + Fed Clerk %s.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:39 pm

Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby Npret » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:41 pm

AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
Npret wrote:
AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your question. The whole point of the tier distinction is that it's harder to get the initial job outcome from the lower-tier school in the first place. The lateral prospects for Duke-to-V100 vs. Vandy-V100 might not be that different, but it's a bad comparison, because the Vandy student has a lower chance of getting that outcome.

But it all depends on what kind of lateral jump you would be making. If you were trying to go to a high-level government job or a clerkship, then your school name might still carry some weight. Or it might not, depending on the region you're trying to go to. I know you want some generic answer along the lines of "Your school name does/doesn't matter after 3-5 years at your job," but that answer is dependent on way too many variables.


Oh no, not at all. I just want an honest answer, and my personal thoughts are that it will still matter at that point. I'm just curious to hear from others, too. My point in comparing top third Vandy and just below median Duke is that they're likely able to/will get a similar initial job, assuming similar goals.

To the best of my knowledge there is no data on this. If you find some, please post.


I'm going by Big Law + Fed Clerk %s.

I meant data on jobs after first employment. Maybe NALP has something somewhere.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby AtSomePointItMatters » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:41 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.


Ah, yes. Hence the post.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby Npret » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:48 pm

AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.


Ah, yes. Hence the post.

So what answer are you expecting here?

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby AtSomePointItMatters » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Npret wrote:
AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.


Ah, yes. Hence the post.

So what answer are you expecting here?


Why the hostility? Hmm... Anyway, I'm just trying to gauge others' thoughts on the matter. I feel that the employment focus on here is consistently about the first job, which I get completely, but I also want to talk about one or two steps down the line. It's a valuable topic that will be relevant for a lot of us on here, myself included.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby TrynaLaw » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:32 pm

Also very interested in this as a lifelong Californian choosing between lower T-14s and UCLA. How much does prestige matter compared to school network/regional connections after the first few years?

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:49 pm

AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
Npret wrote:
AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.


Ah, yes. Hence the post.

So what answer are you expecting here?


Why the hostility? Hmm... Anyway, I'm just trying to gauge others' thoughts on the matter. I feel that the employment focus on here is consistently about the first job, which I get completely, but I also want to talk about one or two steps down the line. It's a valuable topic that will be relevant for a lot of us on here, myself included.

It absolutely is relevant to basically everyone here. Many people have raised this question in the past. The problem is that this information isn't kept systematically anywhere that anyone knows of, so no one can really answer you.

Personally, I don't think the gap between (say) Duke and Vandy means anything at all 3-5 years out, presuming that the Duke and Vandy grads each start in the same place at graduation. I don't think employers parse schools quite that finely. There are people here who have reported that their firms still care about school, but I think the universe of such firms that would hire out of Duke but not Vandy is very small (if you're talking about a broader reach like between NYU and Cardozo or something, that might be different). Non-biglaw employers are all. over. the. place. wrt who they hire. And of course there are some schools that will shut doors. But the difference between Duke and Vandy, for someone who graduates in the same position, does not seem significant at all.

But this is pure speculation, from someone who didn't go to any of these schools (and works with people from ALL KINDS of schools). And when deciding where to go to law school, that begs the question of whether Duke or Vandy has a better shot of putting you in a given position to start with.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby Npret » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:35 pm

AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
Npret wrote:
AtSomePointItMatters wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Right, but there's no data on where they end up 3-5 years later.


Ah, yes. Hence the post.

So what answer are you expecting here?


Why the hostility? Hmm... Anyway, I'm just trying to gauge others' thoughts on the matter. I feel that the employment focus on here is consistently about the first job, which I get completely, but I also want to talk about one or two steps down the line. It's a valuable topic that will be relevant for a lot of us on here, myself included.


It was a genuine question, not hostile, because I don't know how anyone can answer you.
We don't know if two people from the same firm with the same experience will have different lateral outcomes just because of school they attended.

I don't know what you are looking for here.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby favabeansoup » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:37 pm

The only jobs I can seriously think this would affect would be certain clerkships or academia (good luck getting academia from either though). Beyond that, the difference will be pretty meaningless.

If you have 3-5 years biglaw experience, where you want to school won't matter as much as what firm you are currently at and the practice group you are in.

Your school might help because you can lateral or go in house whatever if you find other alums to network with, but that's not a "duke does this better than Vandy" thing.

I do believe there would be a difference for HYS kids compared to lower T14 or Vandy/Texas et al, but not with lower t14 and rest.

In short, no one has tried to look at these numbers too much because it wouldn't really matter. Once you can get the good job starting out, the rest of your career trajectory depends on your performance and not your pedigree that much.

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Re: Low T14 vs. Texas/Vandy/UCLA, 3-5 years out

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:04 pm

TrynaLaw wrote:Also very interested in this as a lifelong Californian choosing between lower T-14s and UCLA. How much does prestige matter compared to school network/regional connections after the first few years?


Your question is even harder to answer, because there's no way to know. Networking/connections matter, but if you didn't start in biglaw, you won't have the same lateral opportunities as someone who did. UCLA has a lower chance of placing you in biglaw than a T14, and so on and so forth. There's just no good data on this.



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