UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

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TheTaylor

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UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:49 pm

I posted just about the same thing on Reddit, but want more opinions.
So you know: I have a 3.67 and a 166, decent softs, lots of work experience during undergrad.
I know a lot of people would say go to a high ranked school where you want to practice. But, I am married I am married, so housing for me is higher. And my wife still has almost 2 years of undergrad left. I also DO NOT want o graduate with a lot of debt.
The reason why I want to go to law school is to practice immigration law in Southern California. I would also like to go into academia after a while (I understand that to teach at a law school I would have to go to a high-ranked law school, I wouldn't mind teaching at the undergraduate level). I have applied to about a dozen different law schools, but there's really only a couple I am considering:
I was invited to Pepperdine for their Faculty Scholars Weekend. This means that they are offering me full tuition with a $7,000 stipend. Malibu and the surrounding area is expensive, but the stipend helps a bit with living expenses. I know I would get lots of leadership experience, and studying in California would help because that is where I want to practice immigration law. I know they don't have a high ranking, but the leadership experience and the area is definitely a plus. The negative is that they don't have much of an immigration emphasis.
I also have been accepted to the dual-degree program J.D./ Master's Latin American Studies at the University of Arizona. I think it would help a ton with immigration law, having the extra Master's. It could also help me getting into academia after I have been practicing for 20 years or so. Living is cheaper here, but it isn't California. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer yet, but I anticipate getting a good one because of my numbers.
I have also gotten a $25,000 per year scholly from Irvine and about $19,000 a year from ASU. Those schools have more prestige, but I am not sure if I could negotiate my scholarships very much with them. I have also applied to USC and UCLA, but don't anticipate much money from them if I get accepted.
I am leaning towards Arizona, and every lawyer I have talked to has said that no one cares where you graduated from after your first couple years. So that why I think the Master's would help.
What would you guys do???

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:29 pm

Negotiate hard with Irvine. You are at or above 75ths so they'll want you.
If you want SoCal, going to school in SoCal should be the priority here.

Where is your wife at undergrad? Is she in Arizona or SoCal?

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:31 pm

If your goal is academia, then none of these schools are viable options.

If your goal is immigration law in CA, then try to negotiate UCI up. Arizona schools should not even be considered if you want to practice in SoCal. The other lawyers you are talking to are either following weird career tracks or not paying attention to how regional things have become.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:32 pm

TheTaylor wrote: I also have been accepted to the dual-degree program J.D./ Master's Latin American Studies at the University of Arizona. I think it would help a ton with immigration law, having the extra Master's. It could also help me getting into academia after I have been practicing for 20 years or so.

Im skeptical of this but don't really know so can't specifically comment. You'd be much better off with practical skills like being fluent in Spanish, I'm thinking.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Rigo wrote:
TheTaylor wrote: I also have been accepted to the dual-degree program J.D./ Master's Latin American Studies at the University of Arizona. I think it would help a ton with immigration law, having the extra Master's. It could also help me getting into academia after I have been practicing for 20 years or so.

Im skeptical of this but don't really know so can't specifically comment. You'd be much better off with practical skills like being fluent in Spanish, I'm thinking.


I am fluent in Spanish, but I would also learn Portuguese with the dual-degree program.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:37 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:If your goal is academia, then none of these schools are viable options.

If your goal is immigration law in CA, then try to negotiate UCI up. Arizona schools should not even be considered if you want to practice in SoCal. The other lawyers you are talking to are either following weird career tracks or not paying attention to how regional things have become.


Thanks for the info, any advice on how to negotiate with Irvine?
I know that I won't be able to do much in academia, but with a J.D. I am sure I could still teach at the undergraduate level, I ahve alot of professors here at my undergrad that went to no-name schools.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:38 pm

Rigo wrote:Negotiate hard with Irvine. You are at or above 75ths so they'll want you.
If you want SoCal, going to school in SoCal should be the priority here.

Where is your wife at undergrad? Is she in Arizona or SoCal?


My wife is with me at Southern Utah, but we are California residents.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:43 pm

TheTaylor wrote:Thanks for the info, any advice on how to negotiate with Irvine?

Your best bet will be waiting for your USC offer (I'm thinking you'll probably get in). It could very likely be better than $75k total.
UCI is way more likely to play ball with that than anything else. Play UCI and USC off each other as much as you can. But if USC doesn't pan out, you should be able to get modest increases using full ride offers from Arizona and Pepperdine.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby loslakers » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:13 pm

Rigo wrote:
TheTaylor wrote:Thanks for the info, any advice on how to negotiate with Irvine?

Your best bet will be waiting for your USC offer (I'm thinking you'll probably get in). It could very likely be better than $75k total.
UCI is way more likely to play ball with that than anything else. Play UCI and USC off each other as much as you can. But if USC doesn't pan out, you should be able to get modest increases using full ride offers from Arizona and Pepperdine.


this. your lsat is at USC's 75th, so im sure you'll be accepted with a decent amount of money that you could leverage UCI into giving you close to a full ride.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:19 pm

Any ABA accredited law school will suffice for one desiring to practice immigration law. Spanish fluency/proficiency is very important. One avenue into immigration law is through public defenders clinics. Charged with a crime, then facing immigration issues. More important than your choice of law school is foreign language proficiency.

Try to graduate with no debt.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:33 pm

Portuguese is a very valuable language, but not necessarily for immigration law. Better for commercial/business law especially if willing to live in Brazil where you may be in a small cozy branch office of a biglaw firm earning biglaw money.
Also, major companies (Nike for example) will love your language fluency & not care what law school you graduated so long as ABA accredited with bar membership.

For the most part, nobody cares where you went to law school after four or five years except headhunters doing searches for major city biglaw.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Any ABA accredited law school will suffice for one desiring to practice immigration law. Spanish fluency/proficiency is very important. One avenue into immigration law is through public defenders clinics. Charged with a crime, then facing immigration issues. More important than your choice of law school is foreign language proficiency.

Try to graduate with no debt.

Portuguese is a very valuable language, but not necessarily for immigration law. Better for commercial/business law especially if willing to live in Brazil where you may be in a small cozy branch office of a biglaw firm earning biglaw money.
Also, major companies (Nike for example) will love your language fluency & not care what law school you graduated so long as ABA accredited with bar membership.

For the most part, nobody cares where you went to law school after four or five years except headhunters doing searches for major city biglaw.


This is pretty much what I have been led to believe.
I'm learning towards Arizona, we'll see.
Thanks for your help.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby trebekismyhero » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:26 pm

As others have said, if you want to practice in Southern CA, UCI and USC are your best bets.

I don't know why you think it is so easy to be a professor in undergrad with a JD, if it were a lot of ppl would do that. Maybe you have some professors that did so, but are they full time professors or are they adjunct? Adjunct professors, especially at the undergrad level get paid just a couple thousand dollars a class. If you want to be an academic, get a PhD or go to Yale law. The odds of you becoming a full time professor at any level are pretty slim from any of these schools.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:07 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:As others have said, if you want to practice in Southern CA, UCI and USC are your best bets.

I don't know why you think it is so easy to be a professor in undergrad with a JD, if it were a lot of ppl would do that. Maybe you have some professors that did so, but are they full time professors or are they adjunct? Adjunct professors, especially at the undergrad level get paid just a couple thousand dollars a class. If you want to be an academic, get a PhD or go to Yale law. The odds of you becoming a full time professor at any level are pretty slim from any of these schools.


The professors at my undergrad went to BYU, University of Utah, and Oklahoma. Plus, the President of my University went to the University of Utah. I'm sure it'd be hard to teach at a top university with a degree from a smaller school. But, if you aren't looking to work at a big firm or for a big university, I think hard work will get you a lot of places.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby spqr351 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:22 pm

Why not BYU? I may be taking a leap, but it seems from your previous posts like you could get the VERY cheap tuition there. Their alumni network can place you in Arizona for sure, and probably SoCal if you want it badly enough.

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TheTaylor

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby TheTaylor » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:47 pm

spqr351 wrote:Why not BYU? I may be taking a leap, but it seems from your previous posts like you could get the VERY cheap tuition there. Their alumni network can place you in Arizona for sure, and probably SoCal if you want it badly enough.


Yeah, I have thought about it. I know a guy who went to BYU and does immigration law for the feds in SoCal, he make six figures.
I got in to BYU and should be getting scholarship info later this week.
It seems like everybody has so many different opinions about the situation, I'll just wait another couple weeks until I get more offers and then see where I go from there.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:13 pm

TheTaylor wrote:
spqr351 wrote:Why not BYU? I may be taking a leap, but it seems from your previous posts like you could get the VERY cheap tuition there. Their alumni network can place you in Arizona for sure, and probably SoCal if you want it badly enough.


Yeah, I have thought about it. I know a guy who went to BYU and does immigration law for the feds in SoCal, he make six figures.
I got in to BYU and should be getting scholarship info later this week.
It seems like everybody has so many different opinions about the situation, I'll just wait another couple weeks until I get more offers and then see where I go from there.


That is not a normal result from BYU, and unless you already have strong California ties, I really wouldn't recommend that route. There really aren't a lot of different opinions here; pretty much everyone has consistently told you that you need to go to a California school to stay in California.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby spqr351 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:50 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
TheTaylor wrote:
spqr351 wrote:Why not BYU? I may be taking a leap, but it seems from your previous posts like you could get the VERY cheap tuition there. Their alumni network can place you in Arizona for sure, and probably SoCal if you want it badly enough.


Yeah, I have thought about it. I know a guy who went to BYU and does immigration law for the feds in SoCal, he make six figures.
I got in to BYU and should be getting scholarship info later this week.
It seems like everybody has so many different opinions about the situation, I'll just wait another couple weeks until I get more offers and then see where I go from there.


That is not a normal result from BYU, and unless you already have strong California ties, I really wouldn't recommend that route. There really aren't a lot of different opinions here; pretty much everyone has consistently told you that you need to go to a California school to stay in California.


I think that's fair. However, Mormons tend to take care of their own. I wouldn't rule out SoCal from BYU - we all know ward members who went there and did great outside Utah - but it'd be much more effective to go to a California school and be part of the J. Reuben Clark Society (or whatever it's called - or is it only Chicago that has and Oaks Society?). That said, the insane tuition discount at the Y might make it worth the risk if ending up in Utah forever in exchange for minimal debt. Lots of difficult choices, haha.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:56 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Call in for the academia stuff

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:56 pm

TheTaylor wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:As others have said, if you want to practice in Southern CA, UCI and USC are your best bets.

I don't know why you think it is so easy to be a professor in undergrad with a JD, if it were a lot of ppl would do that. Maybe you have some professors that did so, but are they full time professors or are they adjunct? Adjunct professors, especially at the undergrad level get paid just a couple thousand dollars a class. If you want to be an academic, get a PhD or go to Yale law. The odds of you becoming a full time professor at any level are pretty slim from any of these schools.


The professors at my undergrad went to BYU, University of Utah, and Oklahoma. Plus, the President of my University went to the University of Utah. I'm sure it'd be hard to teach at a top university with a degree from a smaller school. But, if you aren't looking to work at a big firm or for a big university, I think hard work will get you a lot of places.

No. No. No. This isn't how it works. At all.

First, school rankings overall don't mean shit for PhD programs. People with PhDs from the schools you list can do well in their field if they work in respected programs and with respected professors. The University of Utah might actually be a better place for certain academic fields than Yale, or at least, just as good on most levels (Yale's definitely going to have more money). This is different from legal academia.

Second, you're not going to get a job as a tenure-track professor at an undergrad college with a JD. The academic job market is ridiculously oversaturated and there is an excess of people with PhDs in actual academic fields. A poli sci department will want (and get) someone with a PhD in poli sci, a sociology department will want a sociologist. The JD might count if a department was hurting for applicants, but they never are - there are too many PhDs for the job market. And you're not going to get that job after practicing for 20 years, because schools want professional academics, and practice doesn't give you any academic credentials.

It's entirely possible you could adjunct by picking up individual courses. As noted above, you'll get paid a few thousand per course and get treated like a second class citizen, but it's possible. Probably more likely that if you practice for 20 years you can pick up some classes teaching at a law school, which will pay better. But it's not really a full time gig (maybe if you help run a clinic. I think this kind of job is based mostly on practice experience and connections).

In any case, any of these options after you've been practicing for 20 years will depend on what you do during those 20 years. None of these possibilities should be something to consider when picking a school. And with regard to the schools you're considering, none of them has any particular edge over the other for academic stuff. It won't matter. (Do the MA if you want to do it, but doing an MA, in itself, isn't going to help much wrt an academic job 20 years later.)

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby zot1 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:07 pm

Nony, quit ruining people's dreams.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:27 pm

I CAN'T HELP IT






I was summoned!

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby blueapple » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I CAN'T HELP IT






I was summoned!


Nony is summoned when people are about to make bad life decisions; Hiko is summoned when anyone is talking about standardized test scores as a proxy for intelligence.
Last edited by blueapple on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby BobBoblaw » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:12 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I CAN'T HELP IT






I was summoned!

Thanks, Nony, for posting what I was thinking but was too lazy to articulate in a response.

You are appreciated

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zot1

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Re: UCI, ASU, Arizona, or Pepperdine

Postby zot1 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:26 pm

BobBoblaw wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I CAN'T HELP IT






I was summoned!

Thanks, Nony, for posting what I was thinking but was too lazy to articulate in a response.

You are appreciated


Yes, she is.



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