UCI (45K) vs. W&M (45k) Forum

[sunnyhopeful]

Both schools are ranking about the same this year. Both offering 45K total scholly. Literally the oldest law school (W&M) vs. the newest (UCI). I really wanted to live and work in California so UCI seemed like the obvious choice. Large difference in tuition costs though. ~41K at W&M so if I am able to keep that scholly thats pretty much a year off, keeping debt under ~100K (considering tuition costs only). Meanwhile 45K off of tuition at UCI at 55K a year hardly puts a dent. Career goals, lit, likely government but have Biglaw admin experience, so that can possibly be in the cards.
UCI seemed like a for sure thing since I want to live out on the west coast but now considering W&M cheaper's tuition and COL, I'm taking closer look at them. I'm somewhat debt averse. Do W&M grads ever make their way out to practice in CA? School stats says some but not sure how much of those people already had connects out there. Also, I've been to Orange County before, love it. Don't know anything about VA but started looking into it. May go visit. Anyone have any experience with W&M? I'm mostly skeptical with UCI's new status. I know their doing well so far but how much of that is likely to last??Thanks for any insight.

[Future Ex-Engineer]

I will be straight up and tell you I don't know which would be better, but I am concerned about the legal future of someone who uses their instead of they're.

[MichiganHoosier]

I will be straight up and tell you I don't know which would be better, but I am concerned about the legal future of someone who uses their instead of they're.

So your sole purpose for commenting on this post was to be an asshole? Nice.

OP, the consensus you're going to get is that W&M isn't going to carry to the west coast. With that said, my cousin went there ('07) and got a job at a firm in Hawaii, and is now working at an even better firm in Seattle. However, I'm sure that's the exception not the norm.

They're both great schools in their own regard, but if you want to end up in California, go to UCI. Try and negotiate to get more money, and network network network once you're enrolled.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

If you want to stay in CA, then UCI. I would not choose W&M unless you're comfortable with working in VA/mid Atlantic region after graduation. They send a few people to CA every year but it's a small number and not something you'll want to gamble on. I've looked into it and never really found out who gets to CA and how; just a few anecdotes here and there.

Do you have existing ties to CA, or did you just want to end up here?

To give my personal perspective, I'm a CA resident who visited VA last year because W&M was a school I'm seriously considering and wanted to get a feel for the area. Williamsburg is a definitely its own thing; most of the place feels like your typical American suburb (chain restaurants + chain grocery stores everywhere) but the historical area is pretty unique. I would say it's quaint, though your mileage may vary, and it's small. Touristy too. The area was really beautiful though in the fall. I visited Richmond too, which was a decent city. There are areas that were pretty livable for a young professional, which is important 'cause Richmond is probably the city you'd most likely end up in.

Honestly though, 45k for either school isn't much. Have you exhausted your LSAT retakes? You can get at least 60k from W&M with an above 75th LSAT, same with UCI.

[zot1]

If you want to work in CA, UCI is the obvious choice.

I should expand on a couple of things here. There is a lot of value in being in the place where you want to work post-graduation: you can go to networking events, do externships, etc. I would ask that you reevaluate the COL comparisons. UCI's subsidize housing is actually a lot cheaper than other California AND some out of state housing, to include VA.

You also asked how long is UCI's success going to last... Well, the school isn't going away. Even if UCI ends up in the situation Hastings is now, administrators will just make changes to get back on top.

[cavalier1138]

As already stated, neither school has a portable degree, so you should go to UCI if you want to stay in California.

You mentioned government/biglaw, so I'm guessing that you're targeting the more competitive federal government positions (like AUSA, etc.). Neither of these schools is going to be particularly good for that, so if those are your career goals, you should likely retake the LSAT (I'm just guessing about your score, since you didn't provide it) and apply next cycle.

[zot1]

As already stated, neither school has a portable degree, so you should go to UCI if you want to stay in California.

You mentioned government/biglaw, so I'm guessing that you're targeting the more competitive federal government positions (like AUSA, etc.). Neither of these schools is going to be particularly good for that, so if those are your career goals, you should likely retake the LSAT (I'm just guessing about your score, since you didn't provide it) and apply next cycle.

Hmmm UCI does have a portable degree and it most definitely can get you federal government positions (as long as you meet other qualifications like class standing, law review/moot court, etc.).

[cavalier1138]

As already stated, neither school has a portable degree, so you should go to UCI if you want to stay in California.

You mentioned government/biglaw, so I'm guessing that you're targeting the more competitive federal government positions (like AUSA, etc.). Neither of these schools is going to be particularly good for that, so if those are your career goals, you should likely retake the LSAT (I'm just guessing about your score, since you didn't provide it) and apply next cycle.

Hmmm UCI does have a portable degree and it most definitely can get you federal government positions (as long as you meet other qualifications like class standing, law review/moot court, etc.).

I think calling UCI's degree "portable" is a bit of a stretch. It's portable in that you can go up and down California, but I really don't think it carries much weight nationally, regardless of how good its dean is. Not that it's a bad school; it's been doing very well for just starting out. But it's still a regional school, and not even quite good enough to be called a regional powerhouse yet.

[Mullens]

neither for your goals at that cost

[zot1]

As already stated, neither school has a portable degree, so you should go to UCI if you want to stay in California.

You mentioned government/biglaw, so I'm guessing that you're targeting the more competitive federal government positions (like AUSA, etc.). Neither of these schools is going to be particularly good for that, so if those are your career goals, you should likely retake the LSAT (I'm just guessing about your score, since you didn't provide it) and apply next cycle.

Hmmm UCI does have a portable degree and it most definitely can get you federal government positions (as long as you meet other qualifications like class standing, law review/moot court, etc.).

I think calling UCI's degree "portable" is a bit of a stretch. It's portable in that you can go up and down California, but I really don't think it carries much weight nationally, regardless of how good its dean is. Not that it's a bad school; it's been doing very well for just starting out. But it's still a regional school, and not even quite good enough to be called a regional powerhouse yet.

UCI has alumni in NY, OR, WA, TX, NM, NE, IL, MI, HI, GA, LA, VA, DC, TN, PA.... that I can recall... and this is just from 4 classes (I have very little knowledge on the 5th class). Chances are the list is longer and will definitely grow as more students graduate who want to go outside of Cali.

Disregarding that, there is a self-selective bias. The majority of students who go to UCI want to stay in Southern California.

[Ferrisjso]

I think this is pretty straightforward, if you want CA go to UCI, Virginia go to W+M. That's over a full tuition scholly for W+M though so I would personally jump for W+M.

[cavalier1138]

That's over a full tuition scholly for W+M though so I would personally jump for W+M.

Wow, W&M must have made some serious adjustments to their tuition. Less than $15k a year! It's like a closing sale for law school.

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

That's over a full tuition scholly for W+M though so I would personally jump for W+M.

Wow, W&M must have made some serious adjustments to their tuition. Less than $15k a year! It's like a closing sale for law school.

Hahah I love the cheekiness in all of your posts

[cavalier1138]

UCI has alumni in NY, OR, WA, TX, NM, NE, IL, MI, HI, GA, LA, VA, DC, TN, PA.... that I can recall... and this is just from 4 classes (I have very little knowledge on the 5th class). Chances are the list is longer and will definitely grow as more students graduate who want to go outside of Cali.

Disregarding that, there is a self-selective bias. The majority of students who go to UCI want to stay in Southern California.

Not to harp on this, but that is true of every regional school. The reason they're considered regional is that those outcomes are unusual, and they're usually only possible for people with strong ties to the area (or in the case of NY, those who were in the top of the class). By that standard, every JD is portable. But for the vast majority of students who don't go to UCI with the express intent to go back home (and a game plan for making it happen), they will be limited to California by more than self-selection.

This isn't a bad thing. Every school outside of the T14 is regional to some degree.

[zot1]

The thing is that out of those outcomes, only the persons in TN and TX had ties. And these are only just people I know from UCI.

Either way, it doesn't matter. None of this necessarily helps OP who wants to be in Cali, so I'll see myself out.

[Ferrisjso]

That's over a full tuition scholly for W+M though so I would personally jump for W+M.

Wow, W&M must have made some serious adjustments to their tuition. Less than $15k a year! It's like a closing sale for law school.

Oh, I thought he meant a year:(

[connordalto]

I will be straight up and tell you I don't know which would be better, but I am concerned about the legal future of someone who uses their instead of they're.

So your sole purpose for commenting on this post was to be an asshole? Nice.

OP, the consensus you're going to get is that W&M isn't going to carry to the west coast. With that said, my cousin went there ('07) and got a job at a firm in Hawaii, and is now working at an even better firm in Seattle. However, I'm sure that's the exception not the norm.

They're both great schools in their own regard, but if you want to end up in California, go to UCI. Try and negotiate to get more money, and network network network once you're enrolled.

How did your cousin manage that? Thats a career path I really want

[MichiganHoosier]

@connordalto

PM'd you.

[Johann]

Penny wise pound foolish if you're trying to end up in CALI.

[sunnyhopeful]

Penny wise pound foolish if you're trying to end up in CALI.

Can you please elaborate? Do you mean by attending either of the aforementioned schools at the costs listed, or wanting to end up in CALI?

[sunnyhopeful]

If you want to stay in CA, then UCI. I would not choose W&M unless you're comfortable with working in VA/mid Atlantic region after graduation. They send a few people to CA every year but it's a small number and not something you'll want to gamble on. I've looked into it and never really found out who gets to CA and how; just a few anecdotes here and there.

Do you have existing ties to CA, or did you just want to end up here?

To give my personal perspective, I'm a CA resident who visited VA last year because W&M was a school I'm seriously considering and wanted to get a feel for the area. Williamsburg is a definitely its own thing; most of the place feels like your typical American suburb (chain restaurants + chain grocery stores everywhere) but the historical area is pretty unique. I would say it's quaint, though your mileage may vary, and it's small. Touristy too. The area was really beautiful though in the fall. I visited Richmond too, which was a decent city. There are areas that were pretty livable for a young professional, which is important 'cause Richmond is probably the city you'd most likely end up in.

Honestly though, 45k for either school isn't much. Have you exhausted your LSAT retakes? You can get at least 60k from W&M with an above 75th LSAT, same with UCI.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Are you still considering W&M after visiting?

[Gitaroo_Dude]

If you want to stay in CA, then UCI. I would not choose W&M unless you're comfortable with working in VA/mid Atlantic region after graduation. They send a few people to CA every year but it's a small number and not something you'll want to gamble on. I've looked into it and never really found out who gets to CA and how; just a few anecdotes here and there.

Do you have existing ties to CA, or did you just want to end up here?

To give my personal perspective, I'm a CA resident who visited VA last year because W&M was a school I'm seriously considering and wanted to get a feel for the area. Williamsburg is a definitely its own thing; most of the place feels like your typical American suburb (chain restaurants + chain grocery stores everywhere) but the historical area is pretty unique. I would say it's quaint, though your mileage may vary, and it's small. Touristy too. The area was really beautiful though in the fall. I visited Richmond too, which was a decent city. There are areas that were pretty livable for a young professional, which is important 'cause Richmond is probably the city you'd most likely end up in.

Honestly though, 45k for either school isn't much. Have you exhausted your LSAT retakes? You can get at least 60k from W&M with an above 75th LSAT, same with UCI.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Are you still considering W&M after visiting?

Yeah, still a Top 5 option for me because of how affordable it'll be, as you noted in the OP. Just waiting on scholarship offers from a few schools before deciding.

If I'm being completely candid, I looooooooooove W&M. People on TLS will (rightfully) tell you that your affinity towards a school shouldn't be a big factor when choosing a school. But I have pretty modest career goals so W&M works for me.

UCI was my undergrad school though, and it's cool too. I don't want to sell it short, haha. I don't know if you're familiar with the area but Irvine is a nice suburb and you're close to most major attractions in SoCal. If your main goal for law school is to work in CA as a lawyer (and you're not set on big law), Irvine is a good option. I just think you should try to get more $$ out of them.

[zot1]

I too will agree affinity with the school is important even though that's not the TLS consensus. I will also say it's a good idea not to have an affinity with lower-ranked schools.