Sticker v Full

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guynourmin

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Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:58 am

3.27/173. 5 years work experience (Some PI-facing legal work, mostly corporate legal work). I'm not interested in continuing what I have been doing. Taking more time off before school is obviously an option, but I struggle to think about what I would do.

COA (debt financed):
WUSTL: $75,000 ($150,000 award) (probably less COA at Minnesota and Illinois too)
Michigan: $250,000 ($0 aid)

Dream would be white collar criminal prosecution at the DOJ. If I had to cut my teeth in biglaw for a few years to get there, I could. I could also see myself being happy as a prosecutor at the state and local-level if fedgov just isn't in the cards a few years from now. I'd like to be a litigator, basically.
If other types of PI work were possible (defense, var unicorn human rights type that probably aren't happening for me, etc) I'd be happy to pursue them.

I think Michigan keeps a lot more doors open. The debt terrifies me, because I don't see myself as ever having the ability to pay it off, but I don't think the school would leave me out to dry if I was working in the types of jobs I am interested in, even if IBR or PAYE or anything else was gutted.

On a personal level, I love Michigan, I feel like I belong there, and I didn't feel that way about WUSTL at all.

I know this isn't exactly a new topic, and I've read dozens of these sticker v full posts, but I just don't know what to do.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby poptart123 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:07 pm

One of the big question is: where do you want to work? Michigan will also keep more doors open in this aspect as well.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Future Ex-Engineer » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:20 pm

guybourdin wrote:3.27/173. 5 years work experience (Some PI-facing legal work, mostly corporate legal work). I'm not interested in continuing what I have been doing. Taking more time off before school is obviously an option, but I struggle to think about what I would do.

COA (debt financed):
WUSTL: $75,000 ($150,000 award) (probably less COA at Minnesota and Illinois too)
Michigan: $250,000 ($0 aid)

Dream would be white collar criminal prosecution at the DOJ. If I had to cut my teeth in biglaw for a few years to get there, I could. I could also see myself being happy as a prosecutor at the state and local-level if fedgov just isn't in the cards a few years from now. I'd like to be a litigator, basically.
If other types of PI work were possible (defense, var unicorn human rights type that probably aren't happening for me, etc) I'd be happy to pursue them.

I think Michigan keeps a lot more doors open. The debt terrifies me, because I don't see myself as ever having the ability to pay it off, but I don't think the school would leave me out to dry if I was working in the types of jobs I am interested in, even if IBR or PAYE or anything else was gutted.

On a personal level, I love Michigan, I feel like I belong there, and I didn't feel that way about WUSTL at all.

I know this isn't exactly a new topic, and I've read dozens of these sticker v full posts, but I just don't know what to do.


Maybe not 100% helpful, but how would your decision making calculus change if WUSTL bumped their offer to $200k? I ask, because they do offer a full + 15k/yr stipend award that might be possible to negotiate later in the cycle (don't know if they actually do, just know the award exists).

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby floatie » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:23 pm

Regardless of what choice you make, I don't think you'll be making a bad one - these are both good options.

Michigan will most likely keep a lot more doors open, but WUSTL won't necessarily close those doors - it is a pretty big feeder into Chicago firms. Compare the two schools' LST reports (particularly biglaw placement). I would ask Michigan and WUSTL what repayment assistance programs will be available in the instance that federal repayment plans are gutted, and see if those repayment options are open to non-public sector places. I also wouldn't assume that Michigan won't leave you out to dry - people can, and have, successfully paid back $250,000 in loans and if you're going to go the private sector route at first, you'll be expected to make those 3k per month payments.

That being said, with your LSAT I feel like $75k is too much to be paying for WUSTL - $150k is already an impressive award, but its at least worth asking if they can bump that up any (if they negotiate scholarships, I'm not sure if they do or not).

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Johann » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:24 pm

Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby waldorf » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:31 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.


Except that over a lifetime, you're compounding interest every single day (including while you're in school), so it'll be more than 250k. I also wouldn't count on Trump doing anything he's said he will.

I'd probably choose Michigan right now if you're willing to do Big Law for a few years to make a significant dent in that debt. If you can negotiate with Wash U (and with your LSAT, I think you can) and get the 15k a year stipend, I'd go to Wash U. For me, nothing outside of HYS could compete with the appeal of having almost no debt.

Do you have other acceptances/scholarships that you could use to negotiate with Michigan?

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:32 pm

You don't have any in-between options?

If you hadn't specified white-collar prosecution, then I might have said to go with WashU for the money. But white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program. My real choice would be a lower T14 school that's offering some kind of money, because there are serious downsides to both of these options.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Npret » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:40 pm

guybourdin wrote:3.27/173. 5 years work experience (Some PI-facing legal work, mostly corporate legal work). I'm not interested in continuing what I have been doing. Taking more time off before school is obviously an option, but I struggle to think about what I would do.

COA (debt financed):
WUSTL: $75,000 ($150,000 award) (probably less COA at Minnesota and Illinois too)
Michigan: $250,000 ($0 aid)

Dream would be white collar criminal prosecution at the DOJ. If I had to cut my teeth in biglaw for a few years to get there, I could. I could also see myself being happy as a prosecutor at the state and local-level if fedgov just isn't in the cards a few years from now. I'd like to be a litigator, basically.
If other types of PI work were possible (defense, var unicorn human rights type that probably aren't happening for me, etc) I'd be happy to pursue them.

I think Michigan keeps a lot more doors open. The debt terrifies me, because I don't see myself as ever having the ability to pay it off, but I don't think the school would leave me out to dry if I was working in the types of jobs I am interested in, even if IBR or PAYE or anything else was gutted.

On a personal level, I love Michigan, I feel like I belong there, and I didn't feel that way about WUSTL at all.

I know this isn't exactly a new topic, and I've read dozens of these sticker v full posts, but I just don't know what to do.


I wouldn't count on DOJ white collar crime as a viable career path for a while. Right now even the honors program hires aren't sure they will have jobs.

I'm debt averse and wouldn't recommend Michigan but there is no point going to a school or a city you don't like.

FYI putting the out of state COA in the Georgetown calculator shows you will owe $277,000 and change at time of repayment. That's with a 3% annual increase in COA.

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions-financial-aid/office-of-financial-aid/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=112745

LST shows $273,590.

I'm not sure where you got the $250,000 figure from but it's off significantly (close to ~10%)

Are you willing to do biglaw in NYC? That's where most Michigan biglaw grads end up.

Edit to clarify:
LST $273,590 is the total COA with annual increases in line with typical Michigan increases.

LST cost at time of repayment is $284,000 and change.
https:
Last edited by Npret on Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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guynourmin

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:44 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.


I have heard the debt is both a killer and completely manageable. I'm not a money person, so I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that much money. I've never had any debt. I had some money problems for a couple months once. Money has never been in my life, really, in a positive or negative way. I don't know what it means to be $250,000 in debt and feel unprepared to make that decision.

It's crazy, really. I worked at a non profit with distressed homeowners for a bit when I was fresh out of college. None of these people understood what they were signing when they took out their mortgages. It killed me. I don't know if I'm thinking about making the same mistake.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Npret » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:50 pm

guybourdin wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.


I have heard the debt is both a killer and completely manageable. I'm not a money person, so I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that much money. I've never had any debt. I had some money problems for a couple months once. Money has never been in my life, really, in a positive or negative way. I don't know what it means to be $250,000 in debt and feel unprepared to make that decision.

It's crazy, really. I worked at a non profit with distressed homeowners for a bit when I was fresh out of college. None of these people understood what they were signing when they took out their mortgages. It killed me. I don't know if I'm thinking about making the same mistake.


You know the difference is that they can discharge their debt in bankruptcy and you never will be able to do so. If it helps, look at a bunch of loan repayment calculators.
Last edited by Npret on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:50 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options?

If you hadn't specified white-collar prosecution, then I might have said to go with WashU for the money. But white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program. My real choice would be a lower T14 school that's offering some kind of money, because there are serious downsides to both of these options.


Not really any in-between options. WLd at Vandy and Duke. Didn't apply to Cornell, GULC, Texas, or UCLA. I got into NU, but won't hear back about money for 2 months. I assume I get something (but I assumed I'd get 30-45 from Michigan!). If I get something from NU, I run back to Michigan with it. Probably a bit too much guessing here, but if I got 60 from NU and Mich countered with 30, I'm pretty sure I go for Mich anyway.


As for goals, that's the issue. I probably don't get honors (because most people don't), in which case, I have a much better chance at getting BL from Michigan than WUSTL. I think choosing WUSTL basically changes my goals.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Npret » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:53 pm

guybourdin wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options?

If you hadn't specified white-collar prosecution, then I might have said to go with WashU for the money. But white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program. My real choice would be a lower T14 school that's offering some kind of money, because there are serious downsides to both of these options.


Not really any in-between options. WLd at Vandy and Duke. Didn't apply to Cornell, GULC, Texas, or UCLA. I got into NU, but won't hear back about money for 2 months. I assume I get something (but I assumed I'd get 30-45 from Michigan!). If I get something from NU, I run back to Michigan with it. Probably a bit too much guessing here, but if I got 60 from NU and Mich countered with 30, I'm pretty sure I go for Mich anyway.


As for goals, that's the issue. I probably don't get honors (because most people don't), in which case, I have a much better chance at getting BL from Michigan than WUSTL. I think choosing WUSTL basically changes my goals.


Nothing you've said makes me think you want to work in biglaw other than as a means to repay debt. Why white collar crime prosecution? Do you really just want to be a criminal prosecutor?

Right now no one knows what the honors program is going to look like in 3 years. I feel it's risky to want a government job at this point. Maybe I'm completely wrong but taking on massive debt for a job with the government sounds like a bad plan right now. Luckily we should know more in a few months.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Johann » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:58 pm

guybourdin wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.


I have heard the debt is both a killer and completely manageable. I'm not a money person, so I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that much money. I've never had any debt. I had some money problems for a couple months once. Money has never been in my life, really, in a positive or negative way. I don't know what it means to be $250,000 in debt and feel unprepared to make that decision.

It's crazy, really. I worked at a non profit with distressed homeowners for a bit when I was fresh out of college. None of these people understood what they were signing when they took out their mortgages. It killed me. I don't know if I'm thinking about making the same mistake.


look at the repayment options on different plans (20 year govt, Re/PAYE, 20 year private refi) and look at what post tax salaries are. im 250k in debt. several years into making payments on it, and its been fine.i could service the debt load on any salary with PAYE (and i have - made under 40k when i started in law and serviced my debt fine), and i could service the govts 20 year repayment (which i think is about 1500/month) on a salary of like 60k. my friend is 300k+ in debt and living fine with a 65k job - she has travelled to europe, asia, africa, mexico all within the last couple years, goes out to nice steakhouse dinners, etc. the large number looms there and doesnt really go anywhere, but who cares, im 25-30% done with making my required payments. obvi if you are fine doing whatever legal job, go the cheaper option, because its not fun paying 1k a month to debt, but if you have very niche goals that are bigfed and biglaw dependent, you gotta max those odds.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:05 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You don't have any in-between options?

If you hadn't specified white-collar prosecution, then I might have said to go with WashU for the money. But white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program. My real choice would be a lower T14 school that's offering some kind of money, because there are serious downsides to both of these options.


Not really any in-between options. WLd at Vandy and Duke. Didn't apply to Cornell, GULC, Texas, or UCLA. I got into NU, but won't hear back about money for 2 months. I assume I get something (but I assumed I'd get 30-45 from Michigan!). If I get something from NU, I run back to Michigan with it. Probably a bit too much guessing here, but if I got 60 from NU and Mich countered with 30, I'm pretty sure I go for Mich anyway.


As for goals, that's the issue. I probably don't get honors (because most people don't), in which case, I have a much better chance at getting BL from Michigan than WUSTL. I think choosing WUSTL basically changes my goals.

Npret wrote:Nothing you've said makes me think you want to work in biglaw other than as a means to repay debt. Why white collar crime prosecution? Do you really just want to be a criminal prosecutor?


I don't think anything I've said should make you think I want to work in biglaw even as a means to repay debt! As Cavalier said, "white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program," so I would want biglaw as a means to that end.

I can say, I don't just want to be a criminal prosecutor and I am seriously interested in white collar.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:10 pm

guybourdin wrote:
Npret wrote:Nothing you've said makes me think you want to work in biglaw other than as a means to repay debt. Why white collar crime prosecution? Do you really just want to be a criminal prosecutor?


I don't think anything I've said should make you think I want to work in biglaw even as a means to repay debt! As Cavalier said, "white-collar practice at the DOJ generally pulls from biglaw if you don't get the honors program," so I would want biglaw as a means to that end.

I can say, I don't just want to be a criminal prosecutor and I am seriously interested in white collar.


If that's the case, I'd see what Northwestern's offer looks like, and I'd seriously consider going there if you get a decent scholarship and can't bring Michigan's offer up. If you applied early in the cycle, I don't think there would be any reason to sit out a cycle. And if that's the case and you don't get any better offers, I'd bite the bullet and go to Michigan. I don't generally recommend sticker there, but you need to maximize your chances at biglaw for the career track you want.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:23 am

JohannDeMann wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Michigan. Paying down 250k of debt over a lifetime as an attorney is not that bad. RE/PAYE will not be gutted (Trump has come out for even better Re/PAYE terms, and Dems love it) and PSLF is likely safe in some form though it may be getting redefined. But even without those, 250k is payable on an opening 50k year salary with future promotions (which you'll make more than). The flip side, if you dont get your desired out come from WSTL, youll always wonder or have doubts what would have happened at Michigan.


I have heard the debt is both a killer and completely manageable. I'm not a money person, so I have a really hard time wrapping my head around that much money. I've never had any debt. I had some money problems for a couple months once. Money has never been in my life, really, in a positive or negative way. I don't know what it means to be $250,000 in debt and feel unprepared to make that decision.

It's crazy, really. I worked at a non profit with distressed homeowners for a bit when I was fresh out of college. None of these people understood what they were signing when they took out their mortgages. It killed me. I don't know if I'm thinking about making the same mistake.


look at the repayment options on different plans (20 year govt, Re/PAYE, 20 year private refi) and look at what post tax salaries are. im 250k in debt. several years into making payments on it, and its been fine.i could service the debt load on any salary with PAYE (and i have - made under 40k when i started in law and serviced my debt fine), and i could service the govts 20 year repayment (which i think is about 1500/month) on a salary of like 60k. my friend is 300k+ in debt and living fine with a 65k job - she has travelled to europe, asia, africa, mexico all within the last couple years, goes out to nice steakhouse dinners, etc. the large number looms there and doesnt really go anywhere, but who cares, im 25-30% done with making my required payments. obvi if you are fine doing whatever legal job, go the cheaper option, because its not fun paying 1k a month to debt, but if you have very niche goals that are bigfed and biglaw dependent, you gotta max those odds.


I pay $4k/month, and it has a severe impact on my quality of life. How do you think OP would pay $1k with $275k out of the gate. OP would have to pay this much or more in order to clear their debt in a reasonable amount of time. Michigan at sticker is CRAZY in my opinion. We are still assuming OP does well enough there to qualify for a good lit firm and a federal dist ct clerkship (prereqs for his chosen career), which means like top 20% at michigan at leasf. This is a huge gamble with massive downside.

OP: Taking on law school debt is, in fact, worse than a mortgage, because you build equity into a mortgage whereas paying back debt just feels like flushing money into the shitter as quickly as you can.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:32 am

jbagelboy wrote:a severe impact on my quality of life.


I know your answer might not be my answer five years from now, but was it worth it? Do you think, if I was going to be taking out so much debt anyway, it would make more sense to go to NYU, Columbia, or Virginia with my goals (have not gotten in to any yet - expect WLs but could maybe squeeze into one!)? On a personal level, I think I would be happier at Michigan.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:47 am

guybourdin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:a severe impact on my quality of life.


I know your answer might not be my answer five years from now, but was it worth it? Do you think, if I was going to be taking out so much debt anyway, it would make more sense to go to NYU, Columbia, or Virginia with my goals (have not gotten in to any yet - expect WLs but could maybe squeeze into one!)? On a personal level, I think I would be happier at Michigan.


Absolutely not worth it. And I have a very good outcome, comparatively, and borrowed much less than sticker since I matriculated to a school to which I had a scholarship. But there were many better ways for me to go about this.

To that point, I will say that I'm making several times more than my required payments. I have to, because I cannot take the jobs that I want with substantial student loans and still start a family, which my spouse and I are putting off for years at much personal/emotional cost due to loans. As a result of clerking I also have periods of time where I'm not able to make substantial payments. You will find yourself in the exact same position if you are serious about the career you've outlined, unless maybe you are single and independently wealthy. Sticker at a top law school is for the rich and those committed to a particular public interest sectors. Otherwise you almost always have a better choice.

Addendum: as a splitter you will naturally have fewer choices. You need to think really hard about what becoming an attorney means to you and whether you can achieve the same good without the credential.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby kalvano » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:33 pm

Are you married filing jointly? That will complete FUBAR the benefits of income-based repayment if your spouse works and makes any kind of decent salary, or if you ever get married in the repayment period.*

Having been, at one time, six figures in student loan debt, there is virtually nothing you could say to make me think going $250,000 in debt for law school is a good decision, even if it's for H/Y/S.

* based on my recollection from being (briefly) on an income-based plan.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:05 am

nevermind

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby tinyvessels » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:50 pm

IF taking time off is an option, why not just apply next cycle and cover more schools than you did this cycle? What was the reasoning behind not applying to Vandy, UCLA, Duke, etc.? You should have more options with that LSAT, even with your low GPA.

I guess you could try to get a higher LSAT score, but that can only do so much since your GPA is pretty restrictive for like the top six schools I would assume.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Rigo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:01 pm

To the people saying to reapply, I don't really see the options getting much better than this. He has a T20 full ride and is in at two T13's (the ones you'd expect him to snag).

Put me in the WUSTL camp. It's a tough decision and I feel for you. Good luck making it.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby BoyJord » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:20 pm

Go to Michigan. Let's chill together in Ann Arbor

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby trebekismyhero » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:09 pm

You pretty clearly don't want to go to WUSTL. Did Michigan get back to you when you asked for money?

I guess deposit at Michigan and hope that NU gives you something and you can negotiate between the two.

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Re: Sticker v Full

Postby Nebby » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:12 pm

Retake?



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